Cyclist safety at roundabouts

User avatar
find_bruce
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7017
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby find_bruce » Thu May 04, 2017 12:08 pm

Austroads has just published a report on bicycle safety at roundabouts - it is free to download but you need to create a log in. My take on it is that they looked at a sample of roundabouts in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria where 88% of the crashes involved a cyclist in the roundabout being hit by a car entering the roundabout, likely to be at speeds more than 40 km/h.

I suspect this will not take regular cyclists by surprise.

Worryingly is that Austroads are fairly vague about what might be done about reducing entry speed.

The particular locations they looked at are:

Queensland
  • Seaworld Drive – Waterways Drive, Main Beach
  • Old Burleigh Road – Queensland Avenue, Broadbeach
  • Cotlew Street – Wardoo Street, Ashmore
  • Helensvale Road – Hope Island Road, Hope Island
NSW
  • Eastern Avenue – Tresidder Avenue, Kingsford
  • Barnstaple Road – Ingham Avenue, Five Dock
  • Heffron Road – Banks Avenue, Pagewood
  • Anzac Parade – Rainbow Street, Kingsford
  • Phillip Street – Young Street, Redfern
Victoria
  • Drummond Street – Pigdon Street, Carlton
  • Monbulk Road – Kallista-Emerald Road, Kallista
  • Bowen Crescent – Garton Street, Carlton
  • Union Street – Upton Road, Windsor
  • Gilbert Road – Henty Street, Reservoir
  • Oriel Road – Banksia Street, Heidelberg
  • Childs Road – Dalton Road, Mill Park
  • Whittlesea Road – Arthurs Creek Road, Yan Yean

User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Mulger bill » Thu May 04, 2017 6:55 pm

find_bruce wrote:Worryingly is that Austroads are fairly vague about what might be done about reducing entry speed.

I'm a low cost consultant, they can have this for a fifty. Go left...
Image
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011

BJL
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby BJL » Thu May 04, 2017 7:48 pm

Mulger, you're approaching it all wrong.

What it really requires is a team of university educated consultants who haven't a clue about the real world, all on $200,000+ with a team leader on $400,000+ involving at least a two week stay in a 5 star hotel in Europe flying first class, where you can present your diagram in a 5 hour presentation padded out with absolute garbage so when they get back they can write a one paragraph report copied directly from your presentation (probably part of the garbage bit) and subsequently reject it, preferring to explore other options and keep their cushy jobs for as long as possible. Then when nothing is achieved and the team is dissolved, the issue will be raised again in another couple of years where the whole process will be repeated yet again with ever increasing costs.

fat and old
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby fat and old » Thu May 04, 2017 9:41 pm

Meh, it's easy. That Dalton Rd job is a few hundred metres away and is a daily experience. Do what's being done right now. Rip it up and Signalise it :D

Reports a little out of date...,

Oh, and neither that one, nor Gilbert Rd/Henty St get anywhere near 40kmh entry. 11-16 according to the fancy sensor things at Dalton right now. Gilbert Rd no way in hell.

User avatar
Warin
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:13 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Warin » Fri May 05, 2017 8:24 am

Mulger, you're approaching it all wrong.

The answer must contain revenue raising. :twisted:

So the right hand diagram is the starting point as that involves more road making = revenue for road makers.
Add stop signs on the entries to the roundabouts = more revenue for road makers.
Add nonstop detecting camera systems = revenue for electronic camera makers.
Add nonstop detecting cameras link back to infringement issue office = revenue for government.


Fee for this is $550 ... = revenue for me, and half for this site = revenue for this site.

User avatar
baabaa
Posts: 705
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:47 am

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby baabaa » Fri May 05, 2017 8:41 am

Barnstaple Road is a why would they have put in a roundabout. The line of sight is just wrong as it is X and not a t, also the approach speeds are always high. Needs a set of lights.
Heading east I will continue to chill out with a nice cut across the park ride from the corner to Howley st just to avoid it.

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby antigee » Fri May 05, 2017 8:11 pm

for the research to be any use there has to be political will to change and/or insistent and up to date input from professionals

from May 2014 https://www.onlinepublications.austroad ... AP-R461-14
Assessment of the Effectiveness of On-road Bicycle Lanes at Roundabouts in Australia and New Zealand

but perimeter cycle lanes continue to appear on roundabouts - think this one added in 2015 by Glen Eira council - I used to turn right (heading south) no longer an easy take the lane option

Image

and back to high speed entry and exit - this roundabout has added entry and exit lanes as well as adequate width so that 60km/h can be maintained (or maybe a bit more for a "safe" overtake)
100m from my daughter's old primary school, no way could primary school kids accurately assess the speed of approaching vehicles and yes that is a segregated shared path that crosses the road

Image

not to mention cultural change - was in Canada in early April and had the pleasure of watching all the traffic halt at a 4way stop to allow 2 primary age kids on bikes to get from their school to the sweet shop - they were riding on the road without an adult - and not a small town - a regional centre

User avatar
find_bruce
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7017
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby find_bruce » Fri May 05, 2017 8:47 pm

I love Canada's 4-way stop intersections - nobody has a clue how to navigate them, but as everyone has come to a stop, there are few crashes & any that do happen are minor

BJL
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby BJL » Sat May 06, 2017 8:17 am

antigee, any comment regarding the position of the white vehicle exiting the bottom of the roundabout? (first photo)

User avatar
Warin
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:13 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Warin » Sat May 06, 2017 11:13 am

BJL wrote:antigee, any comment regarding the position of the white vehicle exiting the bottom of the roundabout? (first photo)


Offence - not keeping wholly in own lane.

User avatar
Toyopet
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:43 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Toyopet » Sat May 06, 2017 6:43 pm

find_bruce wrote:....Worryingly is that Austroads are fairly vague about what might be done about reducing entry speed.....


antigee wrote:....and back to high speed entry and exit - this roundabout has added entry and exit lanes as well as adequate width so that 60km/h can be maintained (or maybe a bit more for a "safe" overtake)....


There's a roundabout where I've nearly been cleaned up a few times by drivers coming from the LEFT, because they had no need to slow down on their way through. Recent works completed by Maroondah City Council have succeeded in slowing them down.

http://www.maroondah.vic.gov.au/pages/O ... Works.aspx

Maroondah City Council wrote:.....The works aim to improve safety at the roundabout by reducing vehicle speeds through the intersection by reducing lane widths, installing traffic lane separators and modifying roundabout exits.....


The newly installed concrete lane separators make it more difficult for drivers to take a 'fast line' during roundabout entry and exit. They work! However these separators, along with the narrower lanes, mean cyclists have to be more vigilant about claiming the lane approaching and within the roundabout.

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby antigee » Sun May 07, 2017 8:05 pm

Postby Toyopet » Sat May 06, 2017 6:43 pm

............The newly installed concrete lane separators make it more difficult for drivers to take a 'fast line' during roundabout entry and exit. They work! However these separators, along with the narrower lanes, mean cyclists have to be more vigilant about claiming the lane approaching and within the roundabout.


not sure if much research on concrete lane separators (but I'm not a professional) the only roads I've seen them used on in the UK and US would be roads that don't allow cyclists (urban freeways) would have thought council would have tried the other measures (increased island size, step outs) first

I've no enthusiasm for anything that as a cyclist hems me into a confined space - good to see measures aimed at reducing traffic speed which may increase cyclist safety slightly but doesn't make it an environment that encourages anyone other than the fast and the brave - a bit like any road with pinch points as the only way to slow vehicles

BJL » Sat May 06, 2017 8:17 am

antigee, any comment regarding the position of the white vehicle exiting the bottom of the roundabout? (first photo)


indicative of speed and laziness - roundabouts encourage both

defy1
Posts: 713
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:40 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby defy1 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:16 pm

I loathe roundabouts. Nearly all my near misses have been from them

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 3270
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Thoglette » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:00 pm

defy1 wrote:I loathe roundabouts.

I don't have the same experience. Indeed, I find single lane roundabouts help to bottle up and slow down traffic (compared to untreated roadways with give-way or stop signs) without generating the I'm-stuck-behind-a-cyclist angst that "traffic calming" chicanes seem to do.

Not such a big fan of two-lane roundabouts, especially if riding at slow speeds (in which case I generally "hook" any right hand turn).

Two lane roundabouts seem to encourage lane marking scofflaws, who drive straight through the roundabout (doing several lane changes in the process) without slowing down at all.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

uart
Posts: 970
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby uart » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:09 pm

antigee wrote:but perimeter cycle lanes continue to appear on roundabouts - think this one added in 2015 by Glen Eira council - I used to turn right (heading south) no longer an easy take the lane option

Image

Just wondering there antigee, what happens now if you do take the lane? Is it an issue of copping abuse from motorist for not being in the marked cycle lane? There is no way on Earth that I would want to try to turn right from within that perimeter cycle lane.


and back to high speed entry and exit - this roundabout has added entry and exit lanes as well as adequate width so that 60km/h can be maintained (or maybe a bit more for a "safe" overtake)
100m from my daughter's old primary school, no way could primary school kids accurately assess the speed of approaching vehicles and yes that is a segregated shared path that crosses the road

Image


Yes I hate that too. Does anyone know why they often put crossings so close to roundabout exits like that. When trying to cross it's often almost impossible to predict when a car is going to exit in your direction, and looking at their blinkers is only a rough indication at best.

AdelaidePeter
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:29 pm

Thoglette wrote:
defy1 wrote:I loathe roundabouts.

I don't have the same experience. Indeed, I find single lane roundabouts help to bottle up and slow down traffic (compared to untreated roadways with give-way or stop signs) without generating the I'm-stuck-behind-a-cyclist angst that "traffic calming" chicanes seem to do.


I think it depends on the size of the roundabout. Here are two in my area, shown at the about same scale. They're both single lane roundabouts, on the same north-south road. But the first one has roughly half the distance from driver's eye to me, if I am on their right and we're both waiting to enter the roundabout, compared to the second. I happily use the first. I usually change my route to avoid the second: mainly because I feel invisible, but also due to the speed and volume of traffic through it. Incidentally, that first one has very little east-west traffic, and seems to be there mainly for traffic calming.
Image
Image

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 5867
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby biker jk » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:25 pm

Well the Nine Ways roundabout at Kingsord (Anzac Pde and Rainbow St in the OP list) has been signalised.

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby antigee » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:22 am

biker jk wrote:Well the Nine Ways roundabout at Kingsord (Anzac Pde and Rainbow St in the OP list) has been signalised.


ex (still sort of) pom - plenty of signalised roundabouts in the UK and my opinion horrible for cyclists - yes slows down approaching vehicles but when the light goes green don't be in the way - green, brain out of gear and go (also applies to amber on approach of course)

much better to look at continental designs with their acute feed in arms which slow traffic

User avatar
biker jk
Posts: 5867
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby biker jk » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:31 am

antigee wrote:
biker jk wrote:Well the Nine Ways roundabout at Kingsord (Anzac Pde and Rainbow St in the OP list) has been signalised.


ex (still sort of) pom - plenty of signalised roundabouts in the UK and my opinion horrible for cyclists - yes slows down approaching vehicles but when the light goes green don't be in the way - green, brain out of gear and go (also applies to amber on approach of course)

much better to look at continental designs with their acute feed in arms which slow traffic


My fault for not being clear but the Nine Ways Roundabout is being removed and replaced with traffic lights.

BJL
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby BJL » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:42 am

Signalized roundabouts don't work in my experience.

However, that's largely limited to my local roundabout being in Montrose (those who ride in The Dandenongs will know it). The lights only work at certain hours and the proximity of the pedestrian lights on two exits of the roundabout means that quite often motorists exiting the roundabout aren't looking and will drive right on through a red light as if it didn't exist. The large size of the roundabout also means that the purpose of the lights, reducing traffic jams, fails as motorists still get stuck inside the roundabout as they can't see through the trees and bushes planted in the middle of the roundabout and have no idea if there's enough room to clear the roundabout. Then on the other two sides of the roundabout where there are no pedestrian crossings, crossing is either impossible due to the amount of motorists clogging up the road or very dangerous (Montrose Rd side), as it's a blind corner.

A prime example of a roundabout that should have been ripped up years ago. But the way people around here squeal about it, you'd think that it was built by the Aborigines 10,000 years ago and is some sort of 'sacred' roundabout. Which is far from the truth. But never mind, several other minor intersections nearby (Liverpool Rd/Glasgow Rd) and the sports stadium in Liverpool Rd got traffic lights when roundabouts would have sufficed so I guess it's all good.

Swansea Rd/York Rd is another one that needs to be ripped up and have traffic lights installed. But I fear the only way for common sense to prevail and get rid of these two roundabouts would be to open a Bunnings at both intersections.

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby antigee » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:30 am

biker jk wrote:
antigee wrote:
biker jk wrote:Well the Nine Ways roundabout at Kingsord (Anzac Pde and Rainbow St in the OP list) has been signalised.


ex (still sort of) pom - plenty of signalised roundabouts in the UK and my opinion horrible for cyclists - yes slows down approaching vehicles but when the light goes green don't be in the way - green, brain out of gear and go (also applies to amber on approach of course)

much better to look at continental designs with their acute feed in arms which slow traffic


My fault for not being clear but the Nine Ways Roundabout is being removed and replaced with traffic lights.



no problem I'm in Vic so not local - local council here has suggested that may introduce more roundabouts on quiet residential roads as data suggests less accidents - I suspect that this is because Ped's must give way when crossing at roundabouts whilst driver fail to give way to peds at crossroads - see this a lot near a local school with kids waiting to cross at roundabouts but being nearly wiped out as cross side streets by impatient right turners :-(

User avatar
Leaf T
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:22 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Leaf T » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:53 am

How about stop signs at known dangerous roundabouts?

User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:16 pm

Leaf T wrote:How about stop signs at known dangerous roundabouts?

I'm good with this.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011

RobertL
Posts: 372
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:08 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby RobertL » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:31 am

Leaf T wrote:How about stop signs at known dangerous roundabouts?


Or speed bumps before the roundabout. Those big, wide, table speedbumps that don't really slow cyclists down much.

User avatar
Leaf T
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:22 pm

Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Leaf T » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:46 am

Some roundabouts in inner north suburbs of Melbourne have speed humps. Seems to work. Stop signs have the potential to incur financial penalty of course. :D

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BenGr