Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

User avatar
redsonic
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:08 pm
Location: Brisbane

Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby redsonic » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:52 am

Really thought provoking article:
ABC News

Most people on this forum would agree with or be aware of these issues, but he says many cyclists suffer from the "lycra equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome" when they talk about reciprocity on the roads.

Some quotes from the article:
For instance, the campaign promoting a new road safety law in New South Wales tells us:

"Drivers, bicycle riders and pedestrians all need to Go Together safely. We should all respect each other's space and ensure that everyone stays safe."

Most cyclists hardly need to be reminded to respect the space of a two-tonne vehicle travelling at 80 kilometres per hour just centimetres from their elbow.

Yet the wording, as well as the fines imposed, suggests cyclists have as much power to disrespect drivers' space as vice versa.

The idea that the space someone's car occupies on the road is personal space, where the car is treated as a proxy body with its own right not to be molested, shows just how far this notion of reciprocity has gone.


Automobility rules the road

The fact is the Australian road is not a neutral space. It is ordered by what sociologist John Urry calls the system of automobility.

Urry argues that this is the most transformative system the world has ever seen, one that puts the motorised vehicle at its centre. All other forms of travel, he says, "… have to find their place within a landscape predominantly sculpted by the car system".

As well as all the economic and political interests invested in this system, both public and private, we need to consider the social and cultural meanings these produce around the automobile.

In Australia, ideas of maturity, freedom and autonomy are powerfully entwined with the mythos of the car.

These "cultural preferences" are so strong that they often act to erase cyclists' legal rights and status not only on the road, but also in the courts and when dealing with police.
When cyclist meets driver on the road, both are notionally equal individuals encountering each other in a democratic, rule-governed and neutral public space.

But only if the driver chooses to make it like this. Otherwise, they are in a deeply asymmetrical relation, both physically and culturally.

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 3143
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby Thoglette » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:49 am

Originallly on The Conversation, with a much more effective (and IMHO appropriate) headline photo.
The Converstation: Young female utility rider (sans helmet, OMG) under the wheels of a car.
The ABC: Arse end of a MAMIL moving quickly.

Interestingly, The Conversation's photos were of utility riders in normal clothing. Whereas half the ABCs were full-lycra (one photo was a shaved-legged-bunch - what's that got to do with transport, anyway?) and all had helmets. All identifiable riders in the ABC article were male. Only one was in "civvies".

No bias, is there? <irony>Where's Ms. Hanson when you need her? </irony>
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

g-boaf
Posts: 8598
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby g-boaf » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:49 am

Thoglette wrote:Originallly on The Conversation, with a much more effective (and IMHO appropriate) headline photo.
The Converstation: Young female utility rider (sans helmet, OMGosh) under the wheels of a car.
The ABC: Arse end of a MAMIL moving quickly.

Interestingly, The Conversation's photos were of utility riders in normal clothing. Whereas half the ABCs were full-lycra (one photo was a shaved-legged-bunch - what's that got to do with transport, anyway?) and all had helmets. All identifiable riders in the ABC article were male. Only one was in "civvies".

No bias, is there? <irony>Where's Ms. Hanson when you need her? </irony>


Absolutely equal opinions in all media and websites? Be careful what you wish for, because the cycling haters will also get absolutely equal air time as well. Including those advocating for running down and killing bike riders.

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 3143
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby Thoglette » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:09 pm

g-boaf wrote:Absolutely equal opinions in all media and websites?

Absolutely not. Hence the <irony> tags. I'll try not to drag this further off topic.:-)
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

stanevelyn
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:37 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby stanevelyn » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:39 pm

London Melbourne nice now Barcelona there is no difference between these terror attacks and what drivers deliberately do to cyclists everyday. Many cyclists are government employees, police, defence people. So when we talk about drivers and road sharing equality etc remember that every deliberate attempt to run down a cyclist or cycling group is an act of terror in my view.

User avatar
trailgumby
Posts: 12699
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby trailgumby » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:15 pm

Thoglette wrote:Originallly on The Conversation, with a much more effective (and IMHO appropriate) headline photo.
The Converstation: Young female utility rider (sans helmet, OMGosh) under the wheels of a car.
The ABC: Arse end of a MAMIL moving quickly.

Interestingly, The Conversation's photos were of utility riders in normal clothing. Whereas half the ABCs were full-lycra (one photo was a shaved-legged-bunch - what's that got to do with transport, anyway?) and all had helmets. All identifiable riders in the ABC article were male. Only one was in "civvies".

No bias, is there? <irony>Where's Ms. Hanson when you need her? </irony>

ABC's image selection is probably more representative of the wider cyclist population in Sydney.

MHLs and those ridiculously heavy fines have scared all the plain clothes helmetless utility cyclists off. Mostly only the enthusiast and sport cyclists remain.

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 12391
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:27 am

Stanevelyn, I don't share your opinion. Following a political or religious agenda and planning an attack on people is not the same as two vehicles using infrastructure and a driver of a vehicle hitting a bike rider as a result of; poor infrastruture, ignorance, carelessness, frustration or hate towards a bike rider.

These are different circumstances and I feel it is unreasonable to create a connection even though both can elicit similar emotional reactions of sadness, frustration, etc.

The media and politicians love to use the word 'terror' for many situations that are, by definition not terror. It is used when it shouldn't be to create a public reaction by politicians to push an agenda. The problems of cyclist safety on Australian roads and the actions or ignorance of some road users demands different solutions / approaches and mixing or confusing the motivation of perpetrators in these different circumstances is counterproductive.

Trevtassie
Posts: 560
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:57 am

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby Trevtassie » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:45 am

I much prefer the Japanese system where the cyclist has more rights than the motorist... so much more pleasant.

BJL
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby BJL » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:07 am

AUbicycles wrote:Stanevelyn, I don't share your opinion. Following a political or religious agenda and planning an attack on people is not the same as two vehicles using infrastructure and a driver of a vehicle hitting a bike rider as a result of; poor infrastruture, ignorance, carelessness, frustration or hate towards a bike rider.

These are different circumstances and I feel it is unreasonable to create a connection even though both can elicit similar emotional reactions of sadness, frustration, etc.

The media and politicians love to use the word 'terror' for many situations that are, by definition not terror. It is used when it shouldn't be to create a public reaction by politicians to push an agenda. The problems of cyclist safety on Australian roads and the actions or ignorance of some road users demands different solutions / approaches and mixing or confusing the motivation of perpetrators in these different circumstances is counterproductive.


I disagree. What is happening to cyclists in Australia is an act of terrorism. "Cockroaches on wheels who should be exterminated". Words from someone who is a now prominent federal politician. Maybe motorists don't deliberately set out to injure or kill cyclists, but the vitriol towards cyclists when a cyclist is killed or injured says it all.

It may not be systematic or organized by specific group(s), but the agenda is there. Motorists, motoring groups, politicians, the authorities and the media in their actions (or lack thereof) promote hatred towards cyclists. Acts of terror against cyclists in Australia aren't seen to be proactive as such (motorists deliberately running us down), it's more 'enabled' by lack of action by authorities and promoted by the media. At the end of the day, the result is the same. It's seen as being okay to injure or kill cyclists in Australia in order to further the political agenda to get rid of us.

The only difference between motorists and ISIS terrorists is that ISIS fighters are given weapons and put their lives on the line for their cause (whatever you think of it). Motorists hide inside steel cages and wouldn't dare lift a finger if it meant they would get their precious car scratched or made accountable. Gutless cowards.

fat and old
Posts: 2795
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby fat and old » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:27 am

BJL wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:Stanevelyn, I don't share your opinion. Following a political or religious agenda and planning an attack on people is not the same as two vehicles using infrastructure and a driver of a vehicle hitting a bike rider as a result of; poor infrastruture, ignorance, carelessness, frustration or hate towards a bike rider.

These are different circumstances and I feel it is unreasonable to create a connection even though both can elicit similar emotional reactions of sadness, frustration, etc.

The media and politicians love to use the word 'terror' for many situations that are, by definition not terror. It is used when it shouldn't be to create a public reaction by politicians to push an agenda. The problems of cyclist safety on Australian roads and the actions or ignorance of some road users demands different solutions / approaches and mixing or confusing the motivation of perpetrators in these different circumstances is counterproductive.


I disagree. What is happening to cyclists in Australia is an act of terrorism. "Cockroaches on wheels who should be exterminated". Words from someone who is a now prominent federal politician. Maybe motorists don't deliberately set out to injure or kill cyclists,


Maybe not. Motorcyclists however certainly do

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=61573

Therefore I agree with you, and disagree with AU

martin_12
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:23 am

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby martin_12 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:10 am

There is absolutely no doubt that some (far too many for my liking) motor vehicle drivers use their vehicles as weapons with which to threaten cyclists, by driving very close, hooting, revving the engine etc. Occasionally a threat goes too far, but it seems that in most cases the consequences for driver are minimal.

AdelaidePeter
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:14 am

BJL wrote: "Cockroaches on wheels who should be exterminated". Words from someone who is a now prominent federal politician.


Source? If you mean Hinch, I know he's used the phase "cockroaches on wheels", but I don't think he's ever used that full sentence, or called for killing of cyclists.

march83
Posts: 597
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby march83 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:36 am

I'm bored at work, so...

ALEX CULLEN: What is your attitude to cyclists on our roads?
DERRYN HINCH: Cockroaches on wheels.

— Channel Seven, Sunday Night, 18th August, 2013


source: http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transc ... 045873.htm

never said anything about exterminating from what i can tell.

BJL
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby BJL » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:36 am

AdelaidePeter wrote:
BJL wrote: "Cockroaches on wheels who should be exterminated". Words from someone who is a now prominent federal politician.


Source? If you mean Hinch, I know he's used the phase "cockroaches on wheels", but I don't think he's ever used that full sentence, or called for killing of cyclists.


Yes, you're right. I retract the quote. The full transcript can be found here:

http://btawa.org.au/2013/08/19/cockroaches-on-wheels/

However, further down the transcript, you'll find -

"ALEX: MAMILs – middle-aged men in lycra.

DERRYN: That’s right, yeah, and they should be extinct..and they should be banned from the CBD."

Which I think is what I may have been referring to. Of course, if we are made extinct, there would be no need to ban us from the CBD. Hardly fitting of someone who now sits in parliament.

But however you look at it, the 'cockroaches on wheels' comment can only be construed to mean one thing.

And during my Googling for the day regarding this, I also found this -

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensl ... 1gwmb.html

And on it goes.

AdelaidePeter
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:50 am

BJL wrote:But however you look at it, the 'cockroaches on wheels' comment can only be construed to mean one thing.


Yes, that "one thing" is that he's calling for cyclists to be registered.

No one is calling for cyclists to be killed (except the occasional anonymous idiot). There's just no way you can equate this to terrorism.

BJL
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby BJL » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:54 am

AdelaidePeter wrote:
BJL wrote:But however you look at it, the 'cockroaches on wheels' comment can only be construed to mean one thing.


Yes, that "one thing" is that he's calling for cyclists to be registered.

No one is calling for cyclists to be killed (except the occasional anonymous idiot). There's just no way you can equate this to terrorism.


So cockroaches are registered? Yeh right. :roll: Maybe you missed the quote down further. Read again.

AdelaidePeter
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:59 am

BJL wrote:So cockroaches are registered? Yeh right. :roll: Maybe you missed the quote down further. Read again.


You mean this?

Hinch wrote:I mean, you go out there and you pay $1.50, $1.60 a litre for petrol. A huge chunk of that goes in taxes, it’s used for the roads that they ride on, they use – the whole lot, the whole system – and they should pay for it. The saddest thing is you’ve got these middle-aged men in their lime-green lycra, with their padded cod pieces and their funny little shoes tippy-toeing around cafes in Brighton and South Yarra. It’s pathetic...That’s right, yeah, and they should be extinct..and they should be banned from the CBD... No, they haven’t – they haven’t paid a cent for it.


Like I said, he's calling for registration, not killing.

BJL
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby BJL » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:15 am

AdelaidePeter wrote:
BJL wrote:So cockroaches are registered? Yeh right. :roll: Maybe you missed the quote down further. Read again.


You mean this?



No, I mean this bit-

BJL wrote:"ALEX: MAMILs – middle-aged men in lycra.

DERRYN: That’s right, yeah, and they should be extinct..and they should be banned from the CBD."


Equating 'cockroaches on wheel' to 'cyclists should pay rego' is like me equating 'People with liver disease caused by alcoholism shouldn't get transplants and allowed to die' to 'more people should be encouraged to register as organ donors'.

What do you do when you have cockroaches around the house? Register them, put little number plates on them, make them pay rego? Most people just kill them.

You know what, I give up. Think what you want. When someone calls cyclists 'cockroaches on wheels', it's plain as day what they mean. They're just to gutless to come out and say it in plain English. And too stupid to keep their opinions to themselves.
And not only that, the mongrel came out with that comment during an interview which involved a cyclist who had been seriously injured in a collision with a motor vehicle. Hinch is a complete !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !!. People like him are partially responsible for 'normalizing' cycling hatred and as far as I'm concerned, is partially to blame for the deliberate acts against cyclists in the country. Hardly political material. After the recent death of a cyclist in country Victoria last week, the best some could manage was 'one less bicycle on the roads'. :evil:

BJL
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby BJL » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:57 am

Here's some more reading material for you.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/quee ... f7c5c61c43

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 12391
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:06 pm

Regarding the term "Terrorism" to describe driver collisions with bike riders, there is certainly scope for interpretation but I see two dangerous areas when attempting to use this term in the context of cycling, safe cycling and collisions with bike riders.

Firstly, active anti-cyclists who decide to use criminal activity to specifically target bike riders are not targeting the general population - the criminal actions are specifically against bike riders (e.g.scattering tacks on bike paths or vandalising to dangerous driving to intimidate, injure or kill a bike rider). This contrasts with actions intended to influence the broader population.

Secondly, the word terrorism is popular in the media and among politicians and is used as an easy label to elicit an emotional reaction and to serve their agenda. It is easier for the government to change privacy laws in the name of fighting terrorism and by highlighting an active threat - so this label is can be used not only for describing an action, but also to create leverage.

The majority of collisions where drivers hit riders are not intentional (rather are caused by other driver errors; ignorance, impatience, carelessness and more). If cycling advocates suggest that the motivations are more alarming, the challenge to encourage better road user behaviour and improve infrastructure becomes harder while other groups will then find it easier to define bike riders as extreme or fringe.

This however doesn't change the emotional response / impact or seriousness of a collision or crime but a distinction needs to be made regarding if there was intent and with which terms it is accurately described.

User avatar
redsonic
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:08 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby redsonic » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:22 pm

BJL wrote:Here's some more reading material for you.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/quee ... f7c5c61c43


The Queensland Police response when asked what they are going to do about cyclist hate on Facebook:

“All road users have a responsibility when using the road to obey the law and work together to create a safe environment for all.”


Exactly the attitude that the article I linked to here was criticising.

fat and old
Posts: 2795
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby fat and old » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:04 am

AUbicycles wrote:Regarding the term "Terrorism" to describe driver collisions with bike riders, there is certainly scope for interpretation but I see two dangerous areas when attempting to use this term in the context of cycling, safe cycling and collisions with bike riders.

Firstly, active anti-cyclists who decide to use criminal activity to specifically target bike riders are not targeting the general population - the criminal actions are specifically against bike riders (e.g.scattering tacks on bike paths or vandalising to dangerous driving to intimidate, injure or kill a bike rider). This contrasts with actions intended to influence the broader population.


Cyclists are the broader population, or are at least what most here hope for. How many times do we have the figures of bike sales given out as proof of the numbers cycling? How many times are we going to discuss whether or not cycling is "normal"? How many hateers make it clear that cyclists do not belong on social media? By their actions, these "terrorists" are making it clear that if you want to use the road, you do so at your peril. And it works. Look to any survey on the reasons given for not cycling and fear of motor vehicles is at the top, in one form or another. If that's not intended to "influence the broader population" what is it supposed to be? Fun and games? A bit of a laugh? Whatever it is, it's working.

Secondly, the word terrorism is popular in the media and among politicians and is used as an easy label to elicit an emotional reaction and to serve their agenda. It is easier for the government to change privacy laws in the name of fighting terrorism and by highlighting an active threat - so this label is can be used not only for describing an action, but also to create leverage.

The majority of collisions where drivers hit riders are not intentional (rather are caused by other driver errors; ignorance, impatience, carelessness and more). If cycling advocates suggest that the motivations are more alarming, the challenge to encourage better road user behaviour and improve infrastructure becomes harder while other groups will then find it easier to define bike riders as extreme or fringe.


The parallels with the efforts against "radicalisation" (you know what I'm getting at...trying to be non-political here is all :) ) in your statement say more than you intended. You have just articulated the basic argument(s) of the moderates in the "war on terror" used to reign in or criticise the hard right. Whether or not that was your intention is immaterial. What is striking is the similarities....regardless of intent. If there is no "war on the roads" then the above would be unnecessary.

This however doesn't change the emotional response / impact or seriousness of a collision or crime but a distinction needs to be made regarding if there was intent and with which terms it is accurately described.


Agreed. The example above; of Ben Smith the M/C rider who set out to influence the broader population by intimidation or worse....which he achieved...is obvious. There was intent. He spread his message via social media. He intended to influence the broader population through acts of aggression. Cut and dried. And he is the easy example. There's more, lots more out there. The tacker you referred to.....he/she is definitely influencing the broader population; perhaps inadvertently; through the efforts of those affected using the media to draw attention to the issue. A parallel could easily be drawn with the little outposts of non-IS types in their enclaves in Iraq or Syria, using social media to tell their story to a world that doesn't really care. I do not mean to compare the levels of suffering or destruction here, I draw attention to the methods used.

I'm sorry; as much as I despise hyperbole, over exaggeration and hysteria a solid case for describing some of the behavior we see as terrorism is solid. If the argument is that by using that term we somehow diminish it's seriousness then I question why my, your and every other cyclist's safety and well being is not as serious?

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 12391
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:51 am

I did read the response and while I don't agree with some of the points - we are still on the same side on how we want to see cycling safety, cycling infrastructure and transport improve so our views share more similarities than differences.

fat and old
Posts: 2795
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby fat and old » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:56 pm

Which is way more important than being "right". :)

User avatar
gorilla monsoon
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:45 am
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Let's Stop Pretending Cyclists and Motorists are Equal on the Road

Postby gorilla monsoon » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:36 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
BJL wrote:But however you look at it, the 'cockroaches on wheels' comment can only be construed to mean one thing.


Yes, that "one thing" is that he's calling for cyclists to be registered.

No one is calling for cyclists to be killed (except the occasional anonymous idiot). There's just no way you can equate this to terrorism.


The "occasional anonymous idiot" brigade includes a highly prominent comedian, herself a member of a minority group, who spewed anti-cycling, vitriolic hatred on a national television program a few years back, calling for cyclists to be run down and killed by drivers. As I recall she was aided and abetted by another female comedian who is not a member of any kind of minority group.
Won't climb, can't sprint.

Roger Ramjet: Giant CRX3
Lady Penelope: Avanti Cadent
Barry Allen: Specialized Sirrus Expert

Return to “Cycling Safety and Advocacy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CaffeineAU