Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

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CKinnard
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:13 pm

human909 wrote:I'm not sure how that is relevant nor how your choice is relevant to another person's choice.

We should be able to choose.


My point being some think MHL is inappropriate in Australia because!.... not only does it not exist in the developing world.....but neither Europe!

The driver, the sports cyclists, and the response of the police and law in this incident yet again, illustrate how unlike the developing world and Europe Australia is.

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Thoglette
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby Thoglette » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:29 pm

Guys - this is NOT the MHL thread. Perhaps you can take this conversation over there before the moderators lock this thread?
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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CKinnard
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:40 pm

Comedian wrote:And how often do you ride to the local shops, doctor, restaurant, barber, school?


5-6 days a week. yeah it would be less a hassle without a helmet...but I thought the same when compulsory seat belt laws were introduced.

I am not pollyanna-ish about the state of physical health of Australians (where the obesity rate is essentially 1/3, ~60% higher than Europe).

But what's even more pertinent than physical health (of motorists) for safer road cycling, is cultural health, for which Australia just isn't Europe.

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CKinnard
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:48 pm

Thoglette wrote:Guys - this is NOT the MHL thread. Perhaps you can take this conversation over there before the moderators lock this thread?


that's a given.
I raise MHL because it's a meme for those who overplay the significance of getting rid of MHL, as a critical strategic offense in creating European cycling conditions in Australia.
Not in my wildest dreams could I imagine French police and magistrates emulate what happened in this incident.
Culture is not so simply socially engineered.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby London Boy » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:46 pm

Comedian wrote:He also told me once.. that if you are doing anything in life that requires protective equipment you should probably consider whether you really want to do it.

Equally pertinent is the hierarchy of controls for hazard prevention. The most effective controls are engineering controls, to eliminate the hazard or replace it with a safer alternative. The next, somewhat less effective controls are procedural, like better laws. The least effective control is use of PPE, like bicycle helmets.

But PPE is cheap to legislate, so is all too often the choice made by people with budgets to mind, but who otherwise really don't give a f.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 am

CKinnard wrote:I raise MHL because it's a meme for those who overplay the significance of getting rid of MHL, as a critical strategic offense in creating European cycling conditions in Australia.

But you ignore the political role of MHLs in setting that culture: the whole point of MHLs is to signify that cycling on the road, particularly utility cycling, is undesirable, illegitimate and "other".
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby human909 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:16 am

CKinnard wrote:Culture is not so simply socially engineered.

It was socially engineered back in the early 90s. Complete with advertising campaigns and fines for those that didn't comply.

You know, the same way we go about socially engineering away lots of things... Drink driving and cigarette smoking for example (taxes for the latter not fines.)

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby im_no_pro » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:32 pm

Thoglette wrote:Guys - this is NOT the MHL thread. Perhaps you can take this conversation over there before the moderators lock this thread?


I dont really need to add anything to this. I hope.
master6 wrote: Moderators are like Club Handicappers; I often think they are wrong, but I dont want the job.

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CKinnard
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:53 pm

London Boy wrote:
Comedian wrote:He also told me once.. that if you are doing anything in life that requires protective equipment you should probably consider whether you really want to do it.

Equally pertinent is the hierarchy of controls for hazard prevention. The most effective controls are engineering controls, to eliminate the hazard or replace it with a safer alternative. The next, somewhat less effective controls are procedural, like better laws. The least effective control is use of PPE, like bicycle helmets.

But PPE is cheap to legislate, so is all too often the choice made by people with budgets to mind, but who otherwise really don't give a f.


standing ovation!

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CKinnard
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:08 pm

human909 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Culture is not so simply socially engineered.

It was socially engineered back in the early 90s. Complete with advertising campaigns and fines for those that didn't comply.

You know, the same way we go about socially engineering away lots of things... Drink driving and cigarette smoking for example (taxes for the latter not fines.)


I understand the analogy....but it is flawed.

Infrastructure (meaning public transport which includes roads) is seriously lagging population growth, while simultaneously LGA town plans and loose credit are creating an environment where popn growth is forcing the median city dweller further outwards, and increasing median commute times to work places.

Well may savvy inner urbanites crow about the benefits of bicycle commuting, but the reality for the median is that they live too far from cbd's for cost effective public transport, let alone pragmatic bicycle commutes.

This is why I don't weight highly the view of bicycle commuters who live within 10-15km from the cbd.
They just don't comprehend what life is like for Joe Average (who lives an average 10-15km further out).

And it is Joe Average that determines a nation's culture.
But it has always been difficult to get the silver spooned aspergic children of the landed gentry to comprehend this.
Last edited by CKinnard on Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:08 pm

Back on topic

find_bruce wrote:5 cyclists have been injured in Brisbane, including 1 with "critical head injuries", caused by a car doing a u-turn

I am appalled that the Queensland Ambulance Service is already supplying excuses for the car driver, saying it was an accident and that he was blinded by the sun.

Here's a thought - if you can't see oncoming traffic because you are blinded by the sun, don't do a u-turn!

If there was an issue with lighting, that isn't an excuse for causing the collision, its an admission that one was not driving the conditions.

The local cyclists have a better understanding of this road than what I can gather from the photos and comments. I'm gathering that a separated cycleway wouldn't of helped at this point as its adjacent a driveway and therefor there would of be a break in the cycleway dividing wall, which the motorists could stick the nose of their car into.

One option would be to put a solid divider in the centre of the road so cars cannot turn right out of a driveway or perform a u-turn. Another improvement would be to remove the parking on the downhill side, making the uphill side wider to include an uphill cycle lane (not in door zone).
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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CKinnard
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:21 pm

mikesbytes wrote:One option would be to put a solid divider in the centre of the road so cars cannot turn right out of a driveway or perform a u-turn. Another improvement would be to remove the parking on the downhill side, making the uphill side wider to include an uphill cycle lane (not in door zone).


Mike, if you haven't cottoned on to my mindset yet (easily done), it is that this accident reflects not poor judgement per se by cyclists or motorist.....but a poor understanding of the stresses at play at various levels of the social strata.

The gap between rich and informed, versus, poor/welfare and ill-educated, has grown enormously in my lifetime.
It has led to a situation where you have university educated wealthy and entitled mining company executives riding $10,000+ bicycles on roads shared by young neurodevelopmentally challenged fellas driving dubiously modified cars who have never had a square meal in their life, may have been flogged and abused by a drunkard step father, and have $60 in the bank to see them through til next pay check.

THIS is the reality of Australian "culture".....and hints at why Australia is not more Euro.
You can tell a lot about a nation's culture from its "arts".....in this respect, Australia gave the world Mad Max and accadacca.
Now what's the Euro equivalent?

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby human909 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:08 pm

You are seriously kidding yourself here if you blame inequality as the cause. Cars and the large urban expanses associated are far more expensive to build, own and maintain than alternatives.

Australia's 'blue collar workers' have a higher income than our 'white collar workers'. Our income inequality certainly could be better but it is far from the worst. We have the highest minimum wage in the world.

While I myself haven't experience riding in third world countries with severe inequality and almost non existent education, from what I hear cyclists are treated far more empathetically in many/most places.

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