Copenhagen the New Netherlands

brumby33
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Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby brumby33 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:16 am

We all know how the Netherlands have embraced the bicycle over the car, getting from A-B but Copenhagen is making it's own mark in infrastructure apparently funded by the UN but have encouraged the use of bicycles so that it's a no-brainer for people to just hop on a bike and commute. The use of Cargo bikes are huge in Copenhagen for carrying kids or shopping and deliveries.
Theres a 10 short video page showing how they have built a network of bridges over the river canals only for pedestrians and cyclists...no cars allowed.

Oh yeah....it needs to be said....not one cyclist was wearing a helmet.

If you got time, have a view of some of the ideas that have been undertaken to make Copenhagen a very livable city.

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2013/09/ep ... esign.html

Even though these films were made in 2013, the work is still an ongoing process. If only we have like minded Pollies in Australian cities.


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Thoglette
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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby Thoglette » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:18 am

If ten years old is new...then they're the new Nederland :-)
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brumby33
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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby brumby33 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:43 am

Thoglette wrote:If ten years old is new...then they're the new Nederland :-)


Yeah well Rome wasn't built in a day (as the saying goes) and a lot more than what any Australian Government is doing.
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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby warthog1 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:20 pm

Political will.
We are a long, long way from that here :(

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby fat and old » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:02 pm

brumby33 wrote:We all know how the Netherlands have embraced the bicycle over the car, getting from A-B but Copenhagen is making it's own mark in infrastructure apparently funded by the UN but have encouraged the use of bicycles so that it's a no-brainer for people to just hop on a bike and commute. The use of Cargo bikes are huge in Copenhagen for carrying kids or shopping and deliveries.
Theres a 10 short video page showing how they have built a network of bridges over the river canals only for pedestrians and cyclists...no cars allowed.

Oh yeah....it needs to be said....not one cyclist was wearing a helmet.

If you got time, have a view of some of the ideas that have been undertaken to make Copenhagen a very livable city.

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2013/09/ep ... esign.html

Even though these films were made in 2013, the work is still an ongoing process. If only we have like minded Pollies in Australian cities.


Cheers

brumby33


Yeah, I have to admit trundling along on my step through in a flat city has an attraction when it's so easy going...it'd be grouse :D Except for the snow....you can keep that! :lol: Interesting thing about that shown in those vids was that during the actual snowing....white stuff falling.....was the only time I didn't see a helmet. Yeah, I checked. :lol: Every single vid. Counted them up too. Women actually outnumbered men (just) putting the hairdo theory to waste. Only saw two preteens riding in all ten vids....both girls, both wearing helmets. Is that compulsory for under a certain age? Even saw two kids in cargo bikes with helmets. And the only two children shown in a rear mounted seat had lids too. Saw around 37,000,000 other riders not wearing one. edit...oops, yeah, I counted 113 helmets.

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:48 am

Copenhagen has been a big cycling city for a while... even 15 years ago, the bike was the most convenient way to get around town. The Cycling Chic and Copenhagen Chic movement drew attention. Functional bikes have been in their DNA for a while, now cargo bikes are popular but for as long aa I can remember, the Christiania Bike was synonymous with the city.

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby koshari » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:43 am

us cycling people are doing it all wrong.

the australian political landscape runs on "donations".

if we dont "donate" we dont receive, so if we want action iam afraid we need to dig into our pockets.
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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:26 am

Lobby work and vested interested play a role - the automobile industry is strong - but a key factor is the focus on short term initiates.

People are frustrated with congestion and the seemingly logical solution is more roads or bigger roads. It appears logical and public transport has an image for many as being inconvenient - so improved public transport doesn't appear to be better.

The short term is linked to political cycles, politics want to win favour from the public through the media and with industry - roads are always a winning approach and with public transport, industry doesn't 'win' as much. For construction is is potentially the same, but for car brands, they don't get a benefit turning people over to trains or buses.

Public transport, walking and cycling are also transport modes that can take time plus a bus or a walking or cycling path without 'convenience' is not beneficial.

Some of the options to push change are:
- progressive councils that see and can promote and benefit from the long term value of smarter transport
- generation changes - were a new generations are less reliant on vehicles and more open to alternatives
- Absolute frustration with motor vehicle congestion that people have to move other other solutions
- Cost of living pushing lower income earners to more accessible transport

Obviously politicians can also push for changes however even though the benefits and value to society are well known, time has shown that there is no political interest in genuine change and if there is political discussion in Australia about cycling is it about the 'cycling problem' (i.e. inconvenience to motorists).

In summary, it is a much broader issue and I have problem missed many other key elements necessary to see a positive change. I have no doubt that it will eventually come but until it does come, the costs of implementation will get higher and the cost to society (environmental, health, financial) will increase beyond what is possible with a more active approach to balanced transport which is future-proof.

Christopher

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby g-boaf » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:25 am

brumby33 wrote:If you got time, have a view of some of the ideas that have been undertaken to make Copenhagen a very livable city.


A lot of the Euro cities have good facilities that make it practical/easy to use a bike. In Germany, train stations have bike facilities (which are jammed with bikes) and the trains can take bikes. In Innsbruck, you find bike lanes and paths just about everywhere, and in some locations you see enormous pedestrian/bicycle underpasses that you can use to avoid riding through roundabouts.

koshari wrote:us cycling people are doing it all wrong.

the australian political landscape runs on "donations".

if we dont "donate" we dont receive, so if we want action iam afraid we need to dig into our pockets.


Sad but true. I suspect generational change is going to be the key thing, unless it becomes too expensive to use a car.

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby warthog1 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:50 pm

g-boaf wrote:
koshari wrote:us cycling people are doing it all wrong.

the australian political landscape runs on "donations".

if we dont "donate" we dont receive, so if we want action iam afraid we need to dig into our pockets.


Sad but true. I suspect generational change is going to be the key thing, unless it becomes too expensive to use a car.


Politics is corrupt.
I find the matrix films a good analogy for the broader populace.
There is usually at least an appearance of public interest or positive spin even if the result is shlt for the average punter.
Vested interests control policy through graft and corruption.
The motor lobby/industry has far deeper pockets and far more influence.
Happy to be wrong but there are numerous examples of gvt policy that are not in the interests of the broader community but serve the interests of specific individuals or industry :|
Sorry for that uplifting outlook.

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby human909 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:06 pm

Copenhagen is a city. The Netherlands is a country. How is the comparison apt? Denmark isn't even close to being comparable in terms of bike friendliness as an entire country as the Netherlands is.

Copenhagen is better for cycling than some Dutch towns and not as good as others....

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby brumby33 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:07 am

human909 wrote:Copenhagen is a city. The Netherlands is a country. How is the comparison apt? Denmark isn't even close to being comparable in terms of bike friendliness as an entire country as the Netherlands is.

Copenhagen is better for cycling than some Dutch towns and not as good as others....



Aahh yes...my mistake, I should've put up Amsterdam not Netherlands....thanks for pointing it out :)
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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby fat and old » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:44 am

Yet we refer to separated lanes as "Copenhagen" treatment. Go figure?

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby koshari » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:45 am

warthog1 wrote:Politics is corrupt.
I find the matrix films a good analogy for the broader populace.
There is usually at least an appearance of public interest or positive spin even if the result is shlt for the average punter.
Vested interests control policy through graft and corruption.
The motor lobby/industry has far deeper pockets and far more influence.
Happy to be wrong but there are numerous examples of gvt policy that are not in the interests of the broader community but serve the interests of specific individuals or industry :|
Sorry for that uplifting outlook.

no need to apologise for seeing it as it is, its actually healthier to accept it and move on rather than stay in denial.
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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby gsxrboy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:00 am

I rode from Copenhagen-Berlin-Dresden-Prague-Vienna last year and it was all pretty fantastic (.Cz not being anywhere near the others for infrastructure quality, but that's to be expected). Copenhagen streets are wonderful and pretty much all prioritise cycles with the lights. Bike lanes were great in the city/'burbs and well, well beyond.

I stood out like dog balls on my white bike though :-p 99.99% were just the black commuter bikes they trundle around on.

P.S. I wore a helmet and while the majority didn't, a surprising large number did from what I expected to see.

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby slian » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:00 am

Always wonder why European car drivers are more accepting of bikes being prioritized. Is it because:
    more drivers are cyclists
    relatively lower number of cars compared to bikes
    higher cost of owning/driving cars
    less traffic
    driving is a privilege rather than an entitlement
    weaker car/road/oil establishment/lobby
    segregated infrastructure

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby g-boaf » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:28 am

Where I was, the traffic was lower by a little bit, but not much.

There was semi-separated infrastructure in Innsbruck, but not everywhere. Other cities didn't have any infrastructure that was particularly noteworthy in comparison to Innsbruck.

I think it is the high cost of owning cars and the "driving is a privilege rather than an entitlement". Probably also a bit of "weaker car/road/oil establishment/lobby" too. And they are just more used to bicycles being on the road. Even in peak hour it is fine.

It won't happen here, so you might as well not spend time wondering. What they've got over there will never happen here.

Heck, even a Haute Route style event would never get approvals to happen here unless it was out in the middle of nowhere, despite the amount of money it would bring in. It must have been making these cities a lot of money having 350 odd people turn up, along with all the additional support and organisation people spending money in the local hotels, restaurants, shops, etc.

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby warthog1 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:39 pm

koshari wrote:no need to apologise for seeing it as it is, its actually healthier to accept it and move on rather than stay in denial.


Thanks. :)

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby DavidS » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:05 am

I can only see a shift coming if and when:

Traffic congestion becomes truly intolerable. That said, I don't know how people put up with it. Congestion, and the way most drivers make it worse by inattention and stupidity, drive me batty when I do drive a car.

The price of petrol really does hit the roof. It is still quite cheap in Aus, I think that is a factor in Europe. This must happen, if we don't run low on oil, then we will run out of environment to trash, one way or another it has to happen.

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby human909 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:54 am

DavidS wrote:That said, I don't know how people put up with it.

Neither do I.... Actually I do..... :wink:

People don't see any other way or make choices that give them no other options.

We have spread out cities with often extremely poor public transportation so yes sometimes cars are the only practical way of transport between A and B. But the fact that people choose A and choose B that requires such horrible commutes is a choice and one that I can't fathom how they put up with it.

Late last year I CHOSE a B that was not at all easily accessible by bike or PT, so I'm one of those motorists now. Yet I'm commuting against the traffic so the commute is manageable and around 35minute. Still nothing compared to most commute times. (Occasionally I ride, but I don't get enough sleep to do that every morning. Though I'm sure there are a committed few who would do the 80km return ride everyday.)

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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby Thoglette » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:33 am

human909 wrote:We have spread out cities with often extremely poor public transportation so yes sometimes cars are the only practical way of transport between A and B.

Beware, there's a very slippery slope from casual bicycle advocacy through general transportation into urban planning and ultimately how we write the rules for the "game of monopoly" we call the economy.

And then into the even murkier depths of belief systems :D :D
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Re: Copenhagen the New Netherlands

Postby brumby33 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:15 am

I don't think you can just wack public transport everywhere and hope people will catch it, it has to be able to flow where the masses are and unless you're in the inner city or busy metro areas, people are just too lazy to walk a few blocks to meet the bus or train when they can walk out their door and jump in the car.
What amazes me is the number of Mum's taxis taking and picking their kids up at school, causing havoc around school zones with Mums that don't know how to park properly when there are plentiful school buses that run only 1/3rd to half full and that struggle to get through school zone due to all the Mum's taxis.
Kids that are wrapped in cotton wool these days not allowed to ride bikes due to traffic congestion ( i kind of don't blame them in some respects) and lack of safe bicycle infrastructure, but also won't allow them to take the school buses to and from school even though it's free for them to use.
Take Kingsgrove in Sydney's inner South for example, just on the main road (Kingsgrove Road) it'self there's 3 Major schools, but the traffic is extremely heavy, no cycling facilities, so in school knock off time, it's super congested plus that same road is a major entry and exit point for the M5, plus a new huge Bunnings warehouse, it's got 2 major bus routes that can get busy at times but not crowded but are hampered by the huge amount of traffic in the area that causes all public transport to run late, quite often more than 20 minutes. That same road has a railway station which the buses also feed to and from....I've often cycled to work in this area and it's friggen scary but even driving public transport through there is very stressful.
I've driven buses recently in the Eastern suburbs and now i'm in the Inner West an I tell you, even with all the light rail construction in the East, it's far easier to drive a bus and ride bicycles in the East than it is anywhere in the Southern suburbs of Rockdale/Hurstville/Kingsgrove/Campsie/Burwood/ and to Drummoyne.
Sydney has wide network of railways which run to most areas except the North shore but it's the huge expanse of suburbs you need to get through to get to these facilities, buses take care of these areas pretty well but still it just doesn't get people out of cars as they are just plain lazy in most cases. At least 70% of these cars have only the driver as occupants except after they pick kids up from schools...this won't change while Governments keep building roads to encourage more car use...but very little is being spent on other ways to get around...it ain't going to change here anytime soon....the same in the USA.
Nothing will ever change while the car is king!!

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