Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

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mikesbytes
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:12 pm

One other point. If the officer couldn't correctly judge whether you were in a motor vehicle or a bicycle, then does the officer have the ability to judge whether a road regulation was violated?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:29 pm

find_bruce wrote:(2) mandatory court costs are mandatory. If you are found guilty the court can’t reduce or waive costs


Bruce could you please clarify, If I do plea guilty, does it mean that I will incur court costs automatically ?

Thanks !

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby uart » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:11 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
find_bruce wrote:(2) mandatory court costs are mandatory. If you are found guilty the court can’t reduce or waive costs


Bruce could you please clarify, If I do plea guilty, does it mean that I will incur court costs automatically ?

I'm not sure, hopefully someone will clarify. In any case, the magistrate might also give a substantially lower penalty, plus you get to have to "points issue" clarified.

In my opinion, the whole issue of erroneous points loss gives you an excellent reason to assert why you are choosing to have it heard in court. This will make your case much less likely to be viewed as a frivolous waste of the court's time and give you a much better chance of getting some sympathy from the magistrate. :)

mikesbytes wrote:One other point. If the officer couldn't correctly judge whether you were in a motor vehicle or a bicycle, then does the officer have the ability to judge whether a road regulation was violated?

+1. Where's the like button. :)

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:38 pm

uart wrote:I'm not sure, hopefully someone will clarify. In any case, the magistrate might also give a substantially lower penalty, plus you get to have to "points issue" clarified.


In principle, I agree, but the problem is that the points are not applied after the case is closed. In the court, I am sure the other party will claim if explicitly asked, that they would never apply the points on a cyclist.
And my vague understanding is that you can not question in court something which potentially may happen. You have to start altogether a new case e.g. to return the points.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby find_bruce » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:51 am

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
find_bruce wrote:(2) mandatory court costs are mandatory. If you are found guilty the court can’t reduce or waive costs


Bruce could you please clarify, If I do plea guilty, does it mean that I will incur court costs automatically ?

Thanks !

Yes - if you plead guilty or are convicted you are liable to pay the court costs levy - see Criminal Procedure Act 1986 211A Imposition of court costs levy
Bob_Hornsby wrote:In principle, I agree, but the problem is that the points are not applied after the case is closed. In the court, I am sure the other party will claim if explicitly asked, that they would never apply the points on a cyclist.

The other side will be a police prosecutor. I am confident he or she will say that neither the police, nor the court have anything to do with demerit points.
uart wrote:In any case, the magistrate might also give a substantially lower penalty, plus you get to have to "points issue" clarified.

In my opinion, the whole issue of erroneous points loss gives you an excellent reason to assert why you are choosing to have it heard in court. This will make your case much less likely to be viewed as a frivolous waste of the court's time and give you a much better chance of getting some sympathy from the magistrate. :)
The magistrate is likely to say something like "where is my power to do anything in relation to demerit points". Asking a magistrate to do something he or she has no power to do is the definition of frivolous. Remember that the magistrate has the discretion to fine anywhere between $0 and $2,000.

It seems to me Bob's best arguments are (1) his speed was so low that the offence was trivial, (2) the police officer has not identified that Bob was riding a bicycle & made an error in claiming that demerit points will apply & (3) Bob tried unsuccessfully to raise this with the state debt recovery office.

Bob then offers to plead guilty provided the charge explicitly states that he was riding a bicycle, which solves the earlier question of "how do I prove it?" and is thus able to deal with the Roads & Maritime Services bureaucrat to ensure that no points are recorded against his licence.
mikesbytes wrote:One other point. If the officer couldn't correctly judge whether you were in a motor vehicle or a bicycle, then does the officer have the ability to judge whether a road regulation was violated?
It's a fun argument if Bob is pleading not guilty. I have avoided a speeding camera fine because some idiot set the clock wrong by about 4 hours & yes if a person can't set a clock there is reasonable doubt that they correctly calibrated the radar.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:41 am

Bruce thank you so much for your great insight.
Just to be clear what I am referring to, the image is attached of the remainder penalty notice after stressing in the review that I was a cyclist. They omitted a rego, but kept the points.

https://imgur.com/a/pGduZ

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby fat and old » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:35 am

find_bruce wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:One other point. If the officer couldn't correctly judge whether you were in a motor vehicle or a bicycle, then does the officer have the ability to judge whether a road regulation was violated?
It's a fun argument if Bob is pleading not guilty. I have avoided a speeding camera fine because some idiot set the clock wrong by about 4 hours & yes if a person can't set a clock there is reasonable doubt that they correctly calibrated the radar.


I once received a canary on my old crapheap car. It wasn't really unroadworthy but it was either that or other charges....I was given a choice (this is over 35 years ago). Officer put an incorrect rego number down. I let the car sit in the drive for 3 weeks, tore off the canary and had no more issues. Paid reg another 4 years then sold it. Good bloke. :D

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby baabaa » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:42 pm

Bob, plenty of people have put a fair bit of time into this, really just spend five minutes on the phone and talk to Bicycle NSW.
Pretty sure they will quickly set you up on the pros and cons of taking this fine/points to court.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:13 pm

After a few repetitive emails to the SDR utilizing Bruce's suggestion to "employ the system" and focusing on the demerit points, finally I got the reply.

"This penalty notice was reviewed and the decision advised on 09 December 2017. The law does
not require a further review when a review has already been conducted.
Under the road rules a bicycle is considered a vehicle and the same road rules apply."

Not a single word about the points although they were highlighted in the request. Now, I have no doubt that they will bluntly just apply them.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Nate » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:22 pm

I'd also double down & help the police out here...

They're super focused on our "safety" - kinda odd when they issue a fine here, but i've been driven into multiple times & they continually refuse to give infringements in close pass violations.

So sit there with a camera & video EVERY SINGLE CAR that goes through that stop sign.
Find out when your mate is on duty & take them in.
Do NOT leave without incident numbers for every single one...

Then follow up...
if they dont give incident numbers, refuse to issue infringements - then write a separate letter to the commander EVERY SINGLE TIME on the poor conduct of the officer.

Because they're worried heaps about stop signs... so please help them out.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby SheikYerbouti » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:24 pm

Warin wrote:Quit trying to find a legal loop hole based on your misunderstanding of the law.


This x 100.

Mind you I am finding this whole thread hilarious. The amount of time OP has wasted on this stuff is worth far more than the fine! Really, the outraged nitpicking bush lawyer-ship is really something else!


Go to court with these kind of arguments and the maximum penalty will probably be applied, and the court will have my sympathy not you. 4 pages and still grasping at legally non existent straws.


This x 101.

Actually, can you post the date and time of the hearing, as I'd love to go and sit in the public gallery and watch... mind you it'll probably be over in 7 minutes with you a lot poorer than before.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:30 pm

I thought this saga is over (paid it, swallowed my pride and tried to move on).

Today I received the letter about my objection to the demerit points :

"We sent your letter to the issuing authority who advise the New South Wales Traffic Policy Unit
states, the provisions of Rule 67 apply equally to the rider of a bicycle as they do to the driver of a
motor vehicle. The demerit points allocated to an offense under Rule 67 doesn't exclude the rider
of a bicycle who commits the offense. Section 19 of Road Rules 2017 expressly states a
reference in these Rules to a "driver" which includes a reference to a rider."

Could not find NSW Road Rules Section 19, but previous link https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/vi ... div1/sec32 which bruce posted was updated on 01-Dec-2017. It is very murky to whom demerit points apply.
Nevertheless, I did the offense on 31-Oct.

They again, challenging me to get to the court if I do not like.

Is SDO really going insane ?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby find_bruce » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:02 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:Today I received the letter about my objection to the demerit points :

"We sent your letter to the issuing authority who advise the New South Wales Traffic Policy Unit
states, the provisions of Rule 67 apply equally to the rider of a bicycle as they do to the driver of a
motor vehicle. The demerit points allocated to an offense under Rule 67 doesn't exclude the rider
of a bicycle who commits the offense. Section 19 of Road Rules 2017 expressly states a
reference in these Rules to a "driver" which includes a reference to a rider."

Could not find NSW Road Rules Section 19, but previous link https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/vi ... div1/sec32 which bruce posted was updated on 01-Dec-2017. It is very murky to whom demerit points apply.

Always good to see the bureaucrats don't understand the legislation - yes Road Rule 67 applies to cyclists - Road rule 19

Just some of the features it would appear they cannot get their head around are

  • a stream cannot rise above its source - The Road Transport Act dictates the application of the road rules not the other way around
  • The road rules do not impose demerit points - that would be the Road Transport (Driver Licensing) Regulation 2017
  • s 32 of the Road Transport Act limits demerit points to the use of motor vehicles

The State Debt Recovery Office is not however the licensing authority. Log on to My RTA & check your demerit points. If it is listed, send a letter to the RMS along the following lines:" I have recently checked my demerit points & noticed that I have been listed as having lost demerit points for (identify offence by number & date). I note that section 32(1) of the Road Transport Act 2013 limits the demerit point scheme to offences relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles. Accordingly please identify the motor vehicle that it is alleged I was driving or using at this time."

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:13 pm

Thanks bruce, just trying to login at the RTA website but forgot my password and locked the site for 12 hours.

Since I wrote at least 3 letters about the subject to SDR, and now they explicitly state, in writing, that the demerit points apply, do you think I should take them to the court as they seems to be very comfy with it ?

What can I loose except time since I paid the fine ?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby queequeg » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:50 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:Thanks bruce, just trying to login at the RTA website but forgot my password and locked the site for 12 hours.

Since I wrote at least 3 letters about the subject to SDR, and now they explicitly state, in writing, that the demerit points apply, do you think I should take them to the court as they seems to be very comfy with it ?

What can I loose except time since I paid the fine ?


I'm confused. Once you paid the fine, the SDRO has no further interest in the matter. All they care about is the money. Once you paid the fine, it goes back to the RMS to apply any applicable demerits. What exactly are they suggesting you do?

I love it when the Issuing Authority does not even know the rules and how they apply. You end up bouncing between departments and everyone just points fingers at everyone else. You quite literally have to spell it out for them.

I would start with the RMS and see what they say. The Box Code for Cycling offences is different to that for Motor Vehicles. If the original ticket had a Box Code for a Motor Vehicle, and you weren't in a Motor Vehicle, then that is usually enough to have the ticket invalidated.
If it does correctly list the box code for a bicycle, I would question how the RMS can apply Demerit Points to it.

Look forward to further reports of how you go on this.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby London Boy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:13 pm

silentC wrote:You have to be pretty good at a track stand to do one without your wheels moving :)

I was riding to work a few days ago, and felt this presence just a couple of feet behind me. It was a cyclist, the kind who wears shorts and tee, like a statue he was. The perfect track stand. No movement at all, until he blasted past once the lights turned.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:22 am

Hi just checked in my RTA they applied the points.
Called SDRO they said they check the rules (their law department), they are certain that the demerit points apply.
They told me to go to court !

What I do not get this section (b). Does the driving in a way incorporates here now a cyclists, because he is defined as a driver ?

Offences for which demerit points are incurred(cf DL Act, s 15)
(1) The statutory rules may prescribe:
(a) the offences (relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles), and the number of demerit points incurred for each offence, that comprise the national schedule of demerit points, and
(b) additional offences (relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles) created under a law of this jurisdiction for which demerit points may be incurred and the number of demerit points incurred for each offence.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby find_bruce » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:50 am

Like I have said, calling the state debt recovery office is a waste of time - last time I checked they are part of the NSW Department of Finance, Services and Innovation.

The authority responsible for issuing licences & maintaining the demerit points register is Roads and Maritime Services which is part of the NSW Department of Transport.

There are still a number of steps to take before you get anywhere near a court

  • Like I said send a formal letter to the RMS asking for the information - what you are trying to achieve is a formal admission from the RMS that it wasn't a motor vehicle
  • If they are not forthcoming, formally request the information under the under the Government Information (Public Access) Act 2009
  • Speak to a member of parliament. Try your local member or an upper house member who is cycling friendly

You will then have a choice to make - you can make an application to the Supreme Court under section 69 of the Supreme Court Act. The filing fee for such an application is $1,101. The other option is to wait unless and until they purport to suspend your licence and then lodge an appeal to the local court which has a $93 filing fee.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:08 am

Thanks bruce, I still do not understand why I can not go to the local court and mention just the:

https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/vi ... p3/part3.2.

On my second penalty notice, it says NO REG, essentially confirming that I am cyclist (as well as in their letter).

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby ValleyForge » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:34 am

find_bruce wrote:There are still a number of steps to take before you get anywhere near a court

  • Like I said send a formal letter to the RMS asking for the information - what you are trying to achieve is a formal admission from the RMS that it wasn't a motor vehicle
  • If they are not forthcoming, formally request the information under the under the Government Information (Public Access) Act 2009
  • Speak to a member of parliament. Try your local member or an upper house member who is cycling friendly

You will then have a choice to make - you can make an application to the Supreme Court under section 69 of the Supreme Court Act. The filing fee for such an application is $1,101. The other option is to wait unless and until they purport to suspend your licence and then lodge an appeal to the local court which has a $93 filing fee.

Great advice as always find_bruce.

But I'm not holding my breath here.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby roller » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:13 am

good luck bob.

I wish every cyclist had this much energy to follow up every stop sign infringement, we'd have an Idaho stop law in no time.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:17 am

roller wrote:good luck bob.

I wish every cyclist had this much energy to follow up every stop sign infringement, we'd have an Idaho stop law in no time.


Thanks !
It really boils down to very well defined question:

Do demerit points apply for cyclist in NSW ?

I would think that the court could say yes or no in a flash.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby RobertL » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:24 am

London Boy wrote:
silentC wrote:You have to be pretty good at a track stand to do one without your wheels moving :)

I was riding to work a few days ago, and felt this presence just a couple of feet behind me. It was a cyclist, the kind who wears shorts and tee, like a statue he was. The perfect track stand. No movement at all, until he blasted past once the lights turned.



But you don't have to be that good*. You only have to come to a complete halt, for a brief moment. Once you've done that, you can legally move around or creep forward a bit. There is no requirement to stay absolutely stationary for the entire time.

* still better than me, though.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby uart » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:27 am

Hi Bob, I had really hoped that you were going to elect to have the original matter dealt with in court. At the very absolute worst it would have just been the original fine plus a small court fee, but potentially a lot less. However I can easily understand why you were dissuaded by all the naysayers here in this thread. :(

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:39 am

uart wrote:Hi Bob, I had really hoped that you were going to elect to have the original matter dealt with in court. At the very absolute worst it would have just been the original fine plus a small court fee, but potentially a lot less. However I can easily understand why you were dissuaded by all the naysayers here in this thread. :(


Now, I regret it. Since I paid the fine, now appearance in the court makes the case stronger / trying to do some advocacy and stop bullying cyclist campaign (police ,SDRO, RTA).

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