Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

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Leethal
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Leethal » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:46 am

uart wrote:Hi Bob, I had really hoped that you were going to elect to have the original matter dealt with in court. At the very absolute worst it would have just been the original fine plus a small court fee, but potentially a lot less. However I can easily understand why you were dissuaded by all the naysayers here in this thread. :(

I second that. At the very least it would've wasted police time in going to court and police might rethink whether fining a cyclist for such trivial offence is really worth it, especially as you didn't blast through the stop. The officer likely does not cycle, nor cares how difficult it is for some to come to a complete stop and recommence cycling on an incline. IMO the entire process is simply a small part of the greater movement to "get the f***** cyclist's off the road" attitude that is so prevalent in Australian cities. :(
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby queequeg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:47 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
uart wrote:Hi Bob, I had really hoped that you were going to elect to have the original matter dealt with in court. At the very absolute worst it would have just been the original fine plus a small court fee, but potentially a lot less. However I can easily understand why you were dissuaded by all the naysayers here in this thread. :(


Now, I regret it. Since I paid the fine, now appearance in the court makes the case stronger / trying to do some advocacy and stop bullying cyclist campaign (police ,SDRO, RTA).


I refer you to the RMS Online Site

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=demeritpoints.form

Scroll down to the General Driving Offences Downloadable file: http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/demerits-general.pdf

Open the PDF.

Go to Page 8 and 9

You will notice that not one of the Offences for riders of a Bicycle attracts Demerit Points. This is from the information on the RMS's own site.

I'd just call them up, direct them to their own information and ask why Demerit points have been applied in your case.

You did post this before, and I know it does not list the specific offence of a Stop Sign, but it does list that blowing through a Red Light, whilst expensive, still doesn't attract any demerit points.
The reason for that is the the Road Transport Act restricts the demerit points scheme to Motor Vehicles

See:- https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/2013/18/chap3/part3.2
32 Offences for which demerit points are incurred(cf DL Act, s 15)

(1) The statutory rules may prescribe:

(a) the offences (relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles), and the number of demerit points incurred for each offence, that comprise the national schedule of demerit points, and

(b) additional offences (relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles) created under a law of this jurisdiction for which demerit points may be incurred and the number of demerit points incurred for each offence.

(2) The Authority may, by notice published in the Gazette:

(a) recognise offences (relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles) created under a law of this jurisdiction or another jurisdiction that are not on the national schedule of demerit points as being offences for which the Authority will record demerit points against persons, and

(b) specify the number of demerit points incurred for each of those offences.

(3) The Authority may, by notice published in the Gazette, revoke the recognition of an offence against subsection (2) or amend the number of demerit points specified for an offence. Any such revocation or amendment takes effect on the day the notice is published in the Gazette, or on such later day as may be specified in the notice.

(4) A statutory rule or a notice under this section may specify different numbers of demerit points for the same offence in different circumstances (whether or not the offence is contained in the national schedule of demerit points).

(5) An offence is taken to be recognised under this section on the day the notice is published in the Gazette or on such later day as may be specified in the notice.

(6) A revocation or amendment under subsection (3) does not affect any demerit points incurred before the revocation or amendment takes effect.


Once they own up to their error, Section 31 (5) allows them to correct their mistake

https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/2013/18/chap3/part3.2/div1/sec31
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:29 pm

Thanks queequeg did exactly as you said.
Called RTA, they listened and said nothing to do with us, we will transfer you to SDRO.

Again SDRO, they listened but claim that I am not looking at the Section 19 of Road Rules 2017, and that I am looking at "old"
Road Transport Act 2013. I simply could not come across, they told me that my only option is the court.
Also, they said that police advised them that the offense meaning the demerit points apply.

It would be really important to clarify where one can read Road Rules 2017 and if the demerit points apply for cyclists.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Procat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:47 pm

Doug

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:15 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:Thanks queequeg did exactly as you said.
Called RTA, they listened and said nothing to do with us, we will transfer you to SDRO.

Again SDRO, they listened but claim that I am not looking at the Section 19 of Road Rules 2017, and that I am looking at "old"
Road Transport Act 2013. I simply could not come across, they told me that my only option is the court.

It would seem the RTA are idiots who don't know the law that they help oversee.

Bob_Hornsby wrote:Also, they said that police advised them that the offense meaning the demerit points apply.

It would also seem that the police are be idiots who don't know the law that they help oversee.

I hope you have all this correspondence recorded. If it isn't in writing then record it yourself with time and date.

Bob_Hornsby wrote:It would be really important to clarify where one can read Road Rules 2017 and if the demerit points apply for cyclists.

The Road Rules are not relevant to demerits. Demerit points are covered in a separate act.


No that isn't. That is separate legislation. Demerit points are the domain of the Road Transport Act. Not the Road Rules.

Here we go:

32 Offences for which demerit points are incurred
(cf DL Act, s 15)

(1) The statutory rules may prescribe:
(a) the offences (relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles), and the number of demerit points incurred for each offence, that comprise the national schedule of demerit points, and
(b) additional offences (relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles) created under a law of this jurisdiction for which demerit points may be incurred and the number of demerit points incurred for each offence.


motor vehicle means a vehicle that is built to be propelled by a motor that forms part of the vehicle.

Up to date as at Dec2017

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:23 pm

Seems to me the police have given you no choice but to take the matter to court. That have issued you an infringement notice with a penalty outside the bounds of the law. Despite you best efforts that have refused to recognise this.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby queequeg » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:07 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:Thanks queequeg did exactly as you said.
Called RTA, they listened and said nothing to do with us, we will transfer you to SDRO.

Again SDRO, they listened but claim that I am not looking at the Section 19 of Road Rules 2017, and that I am looking at "old"
Road Transport Act 2013. I simply could not come across, they told me that my only option is the court.
Also, they said that police advised them that the offense meaning the demerit points apply.

It would be really important to clarify where one can read Road Rules 2017 and if the demerit points apply for cyclists.


The RMS and SDRO are a bunch of Morons then.

Section 19 of Road Rules 2017 simply says that as a rider, you must obey the road rules. You broke a rule, you got fined. No argument. No we're just talking about Demerit Points, which are not covered in the Road Rules, They are covered by the Road Transport Act 2013.

The Road Transport Act 2013 is current. I provided the link to the Govt Legislation, which shows it as the current version of the Act with All Ammendments

Here it is again, linking directly to the relevant section that clearly outlines that the entire demerit points scheme applies only to motor vehicles

https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/vi ... p3/part3.2

I would dearly love to have the time to drag them all in front of a judge and have to explain why they are wasting the courts times with this crap when the law is clear, and they just don't know it.

I think you should now stop with phone calls. Write to the RMS and the SDRO, and in big letters CC the Roads Minister, the Police Minister and your local State MP and point out what a bunch of numpties they are. These are the people supposedly charged with writing and enforcing our laws, and they can't apparently even follow a simple link.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby baabaa » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:29 pm

Gawd why is this still a thing... Go to court? Why?
Please show which NSW law allows for cyclists to lose demerit points for breaking road rules? Just pay the fine and the system will work it out.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby fat and old » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:19 pm

I think he did, and they still took the points.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:22 pm

Thank you all guys! I am now very confident to go to the court. I might try to write the letter to MP, Police Minister per your suggestions.

All the conversations with SDRO are recorded. I begged them to listen and just have a stare at some of your suggestions (such as the Act):" no, your case is finalized, you can take the matter to a court ONLY".

I was a bit worried that they might be right by passing some invisible law.
However, it seems to be just ignorance or arrogance that by inertia none of cyclist would contest the demerit points.
Last edited by Bob_Hornsby on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:34 pm

Hi Bob, you should have a talk to LACC, about 20 of them got booked a couple of weeks ago for riding thru a stop sign, turning left Would be interesting to see what has happened there.

Also have you considered getting a bicycle advocacy group involved?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:06 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Hi Bob, you should have a talk to LACC, about 20 of them got booked a couple of weeks ago for riding thru a stop sign, turning left Would be interesting to see what has happened there.

Also have you considered getting a bicycle advocacy group involved?


Hi mike, I just heard that (it happened around Homebush I believe) and I think the demerit points applied as well. I am planning to call them tomorrow and see what is their experience/course of action.

I also called http://nsw.cycling.org.au/, they immediately asked me if I was part of that group. I wanted to asked them if the demerits point apply, yes or no. He said that somebody very senior in the organisation is discussing the applicability of demerit points with the authority at the highest level.
Since they could not give me a straight answer that made me and still makes me a bit worried. SDRO sounds very confident.

I am not a lawyer (obviously :), but my feel is that somebody gave a green light to potential prosecutors that is completely arguable as in my letter, that Rule 67 in conjunction with section 19 can be stretched to apply the points to a cyclist as a driver regardless of the Act.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:17 pm

I think I finally got it (the legislators state of mind).
Here,
http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/demerits-general.pdf

bicycle offenses that do not incur demerit points are listed separately on page 6.

Now, the only question is if the Act can be superseded by the Road rules.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby queequeg » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:29 am

Bob_Hornsby wrote:I think I finally got it (the legislators state of mind).
Here,
http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/demerits-general.pdf

bicycle offenses that do not incur demerit points are listed separately on page 6.

Now, the only question is if the Act can be superseded by the Road rules.


The Act is the primary legislative instrument. It can’t be superseded by the road rules.
The offences listed on page 6 are those in the roads rules that are specific to bicycles. Page 8 & 9 lists general road rule fines and points that apply when those rules are broken whilst riding a bicycle. The list is not comprehensive as it doesn’t list every possible offence (even for motorists), but there is not a single offence on that list that has any demerit points applied where the offence was related to the use of a bicycle.

I can’t fathom why the police, RMS & SDRO are being so obtuse about it. The Act is clear. They can’t choose not to follow it.

Given how difficult the Authority is being (the RMS is the Authority referred to in the Act), at this stage you are best taking it up with an advocacy group who has access to a lawyer who can bang some sense into these people. I get the feeling that they hope you’ll just cop it and go away.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:50 am

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
uart wrote:Hi Bob, I had really hoped that you were going to elect to have the original matter dealt with in court. At the very absolute worst it would have just been the original fine plus a small court fee, but potentially a lot less. However I can easily understand why you were dissuaded by all the naysayers here in this thread. :(


Now, I regret it. Since I paid the fine, now appearance in the court makes the case stronger / trying to do some advocacy and stop bullying cyclist campaign (police ,SDRO, RTA).

I agree. So many naysayers who don't actually read legislation.

Now that you have paid the fine you are facing an uphill battle.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby baabaa » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:48 am

fat and old wrote:I think he did, and they still took the points.

Well if that is the case then it makes it very easy, if the OP takes ownership of this and walks into any police station shows the paid up fine and have them to check his points. A face to face question is needed on which event led to the loss of the demerit points as the the payment of the fine closed that file. If the points are linked to the bicycle fine then it is an system error that they can fix on the spot. It is not a legal matter.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:58 am

queequeg wrote:
Given how difficult the Authority is being (the RMS is the Authority referred to in the Act), at this stage you are best taking it up with an advocacy group who has access to a lawyer who can bang some sense into these people. I get the feeling that they hope you’ll just cop it and go away.


You are right. I can not see that I can get through this where now expertise in law related questions are to be debated. My case is a clear cut, it is about the demerit points. Nothing else.
In a way, it is related to all cyclist in NSW. I suppose we would like to know the answer. I do not mind being a guniea pig, but would need an expert to come along, such as bruce or similar :).

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:01 am

baabaa wrote:If the points are linked to the bicycle fine then it is an system error that they can fix on the spot. It is not a legal matter.

Very easy? No it makes it harder because he originally had an extremely direct way to contest the infringement. The court system where he could directly contest.

It isn't a system error it is an error by the original police officer who issued the infringement notice. By paying the infringement notice the rider has accepted his guilt and his punishment. Now he has to wrangle out of the demerit punishment based on incorrect application of the law. (Much harder.)

Bob_Hornsby wrote:You are right. I can not see that I can get through this where now expertise in law related questions are to be debated. My case is a clear cut, it is about the demerit points. Nothing else.
In a way, it is related to all cyclist in NSW. I suppose we would like to know the answer. I do not mind being a guniea pig, but would need an expert to come along, such as bruce or similar :).


I would persist in writing if you can. You need the paper trail and you need to quote the law. You are now dealing with administrators now lawyers or magistrates. It might be like banging your head against a brick wall but it is worth a try.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby find_bruce » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:41 am

human909 wrote:Very easy? No it makes it harder because he originally had an extremely direct way to contest the infringement. The court system where he could directly contest.

It isn't a system error it is an error by the original police officer who issued the infringement notice. By paying the infringement notice the rider has accepted his guilt and his punishment. Now he has to wrangle out of the demerit punishment based on incorrect application of the law. (Much harder.)

Sorry human909 while I mostly agree with what you say, you are wrong about this bit - traffic matters go to the local court & demerit points are not part of the punishment. Some magistrates would ask "where do you say I have the power to do anything about demerit points" - the balance will give you a lecture about how they don't have any such power & stop wasting their time.

human909 wrote:I would persist in writing if you can. You need the paper trail and you need to quote the law. You are now dealing with administrators now lawyers or magistrates. It might be like banging your head against a brick wall but it is worth a try.

Nail meet hammer - putting it in writing is about getting evidence of the precise position of the Authority, locking them into a position which you can then attack. Whilst phone calls are supposedly recorded, getting access to those recordings will be even more difficult than getting the demerit points reversed.

Just to be clear Bob you need to focus your attention on the correct place - the police issue infringement notices, the SDRO make sure you pay the penalty, but "the Authority" for drivers licences is "Roads and Maritime Services constituted under the Transport Administration Act 1988" see the definition in section 4 of the Road Transport Act and Part 3.1 of the Road Transport Act which sets out the general functions of Roads and Maritime Services in relation to driver licensing.

Oh & if you want to be clear why the rules cannot enlarge the meaning of the act without the need to attend law school or read a textbook on statutory interpretation, have a look at section 21 of the Road Transport Act - the rules can exempt a vehicle from their operation, but there is no provision that enables the rules to enlarge their operation.

Going to court is expensive! While I could probably put you in touch with a lawyer who would take the case on the basis that if you don't win you don't pay anything, you will still need to pay the filing fees and if you lose you will be required to pay the department's costs. This is why the suggestion of going to the LACC is a good one - spread 40 ways the cost is much more affordable.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:32 am

find_bruce wrote:
human909 wrote:Very easy? No it makes it harder because he originally had an extremely direct way to contest the infringement. The court system where he could directly contest.

It isn't a system error it is an error by the original police officer who issued the infringement notice. By paying the infringement notice the rider has accepted his guilt and his punishment. Now he has to wrangle out of the demerit punishment based on incorrect application of the law. (Much harder.)

Sorry human909 while I mostly agree with what you say, you are wrong about this bit - traffic matters go to the local court & demerit points are not part of the punishment. Some magistrates would ask "where do you say I have the power to do anything about demerit points" - the balance will give you a lecture about how they don't have any such power & stop wasting their time.


Don't be sorry. Thank you for politely and succinctly correcting me. And thanks for the initial compliment.

(Despite what some people might believe, I am quite open to being told and explained how/why I am incorrect.)

"demerit points are not part of the punishment" I suppose this is the part I didn't fully understand. I was wrongly assuming theat demerit points are part of the punishment. But I guess that that are an additional and separate administrative (Road Authority) matter not a court matter.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby queequeg » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:55 am

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
queequeg wrote:
Given how difficult the Authority is being (the RMS is the Authority referred to in the Act), at this stage you are best taking it up with an advocacy group who has access to a lawyer who can bang some sense into these people. I get the feeling that they hope you’ll just cop it and go away.


You are right. I can not see that I can get through this where now expertise in law related questions are to be debated. My case is a clear cut, it is about the demerit points. Nothing else.
In a way, it is related to all cyclist in NSW. I suppose we would like to know the answer. I do not mind being a guniea pig, but would need an expert to come along, such as bruce or similar :).


It's frustrating, because now you are dealing with Administrative folks, not lawyers. The fine has come into their system from SDRO, and their computer system has registered the offence and automatically calculated the points. I can pretty much assure you that the person you spoke to at the RMS just looked at their computer screen and trusted what it said. I'd be pretty confidence that the original offence recorded by the Police Officer was incorrect. He's possibly used the Box Code for Motor Vehicle, not a Bicycle. Do you still have a copy of the original ticket the officer issued you? What is the Box Code/Offence Code on the ticket?

As others have suggested, you need to get stuff in writing. As you have indicated that the points have been taken from your licence, I would request a copy of your driving history from the RMS, which should now include this offence and the points deducted. You can request this online. No need to speak to anyone. Once you have that in writing, you have something that you can then attack. You write back to them with a copy of the driving history attached and get them to identify the motor vehicle you were driving that led to this offence.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:23 pm

Nail meet hammer - putting it in writing is about getting evidence of the precise position of the Authority, locking them into a position which you can then attack. Whilst phone calls are supposedly recorded, getting access to those recordings will be even more difficult than getting the demerit points reversed.


I did exactly as you said and send them an email. They said that they will reply in 10 working days (automated reply).

While I could probably put you in touch with a lawyer who would take the case on the basis that if you don't win you don't pay anything, you will still need to pay the filing fees and if you lose you will be required to pay the department's costs.


I am happy to work with a lawyer if he/she would wave his/her fee (send me the contact details in private).

Going to court is expensive!


If you are saying that I may still loose, that is a worry. If it comes from you on very a sharp question, it does not mean that matter is murky, but points that likely we would loose.

Again, I am happy to be a testing ground but I would need support and confidence that I am 100% right, otherwise it would be insanity to challenge in court.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:31 pm

queequeg wrote:He's possibly used the Box Code for Motor Vehicle, not a Bicycle. Do you still have a copy of the original ticket the officer issued you? What is the Box Code/Offence Code on the ticket?


I have the penalty notice where it says NO REG. If you read one of my previous posts they explicitly acknowledge that I was a cyclist and that the points still apply. So no, there is no confusion. It is down to the Rules over the Act and interpretation.

As others have suggested, you need to get stuff in writing. As you have indicated that the points have been taken from your licence, I would request a copy of your driving history from the RMS, which should now include this offence and the points deducted. You can request this online. No need to speak to anyone. Once you have that in writing, you have something that you can then attack. You write back to them with a copy of the driving history attached and get them to identify the motor vehicle you were driving that led to this offence.


I got it in writing, I have 3 letters where 3 demerit points feature, record that they applied 3 demerit points for the offense matching the date. They genuinely stand that bicycle related offenses collect the demerit points.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby queequeg » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:28 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
queequeg wrote:He's possibly used the Box Code for Motor Vehicle, not a Bicycle. Do you still have a copy of the original ticket the officer issued you? What is the Box Code/Offence Code on the ticket?


I have the penalty notice where it says NO REG. If you read one of my previous posts they explicitly acknowledge that I was a cyclist and that the points still apply. So no, there is no confusion. It is down to the Rules over the Act and interpretation.

As others have suggested, you need to get stuff in writing. As you have indicated that the points have been taken from your licence, I would request a copy of your driving history from the RMS, which should now include this offence and the points deducted. You can request this online. No need to speak to anyone. Once you have that in writing, you have something that you can then attack. You write back to them with a copy of the driving history attached and get them to identify the motor vehicle you were driving that led to this offence.


I got it in writing, I have 3 letters where 3 demerit points feature, record that they applied 3 demerit points for the offense matching the date. They genuinely stand that bicycle related offenses collect the demerit points.


I did some digging for you. The offence you have listed, "Not Stop at Stop Line (intersection with no lights) is Offence Code 82638. This offence code attracts 3 Demerit Points.
For many offences, there are two offence codes in the Fixed Penalty Handbook. One code is for Motor Vehicles, the other code is for, unsurprisingly "Not motor vehicles".

For example:-

Offence Code: 83553
Offence Desc: Not stop at stop line at red arrow (motor vehicle)

Offence Code: 83554
Offence Desc: Not stop at stop line at red arrow (not motor vehicle)

If you are riding a bicycle, you would get the Code 83554 fine, which is lower and has no demerits. Code 83553 is the same offence in a motor vehicle, which does attract points.

Speaking to my police contact, for the offence you got ticketed with, there is no alternate code in the Fixed Penalty handbook. The reason you are getting demerits applied is because that offence code attracts points. The RMS computer system is stupid. It just looks at the offence code, looks up how many demerits are applied for it, and deducts them from your licence (because you gave the police your drivers licence, despite it not being required to ride a bicycle)

I suspect that the LACC folks all got booked for the same offence code, and are stuck in the same nightmare. The root cause of the problem is that there should be a different box code for the offence when it is issued for "not motor vehicle". The fact there isn't is an oversight.

My contact suggested 1) do not ever provide your Drivers licence to a police officer for an offence on a bicycle, but be prepared to show 100 points of alternate ID. 2) What the RMS is doing is Unlawful. 3) You may be able to take it up with the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, but he wasn't sure, as this is just the RMS not following an already existing law. You shouldn't need someone telling the Authority to comply with the law.
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human909
Posts: 8836
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:39 pm

Good find and good explanation queequeg.
"The fact there isn't is an oversight."

<START RANT>
These "oversights" regarding cyclists are rife in our road rules and there seems to be no desire to change it. It is virtually impossible to use much of our cycling infrastructure without breaking rules or being at significant risk of harm. Why is it that cyclists get green lights at road intersections yet there is no law allowing cyclists to proceed on green light? Why is it that there is no obligation for turning motorists to give way to cyclists proceeding on green lights?

These are black and white rules that are frequently contradicted by infrastructure and put lives at risk. None of this is getting into the inherant biases discussed in other threads. But when you can't get the road rules right what hope do you have.

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