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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:59 am
by Bob_Hornsby
g-boaf wrote:
Bob_Hornsby wrote:
eldavo wrote:Just remember your twin brother Bob in the UK's address details and use his accent next time. They can send the fine to his address.



Well, clearly I had to identify myself and carry identification by the new law, as I always did.


hang on a moment, that was not adopted, was it?


I really do not know, but it was up in media. Anyway, I am trying to be a good citizen.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:02 am
by familyguy
It was not adopted. It was, however, quietly ignored, hence many people would still think it's a valid rule, constabulary included.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:03 am
by bychosis
familyguy wrote:It was not adopted. It was, however, quietly ignored, hence many people would still think it's a valid rule, constabulary included.

..a despite the fact it isn't mandatory, if you are carrying a license anyway it is easier to hand it over than to be carted off down to the cop shop when they don't believe what you say.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:23 am
by familyguy
I can't dispute that.

If I am carrying mine it's usually because my whole wallet goes into my backpack or I've had to drive to a start point. I can't be bothered removing it from my wallet each ride if I'm leaving and returning to home. But like many things, there's the rule and there's (un)common sense. But the point needs to be made that it is no mandatory, a fact many officers don't actually know.

Jim

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:03 am
by SheikYerbouti
Police already have the power to require your ID and its an offence to not disclose it or to give false info. There includes a specific section regarding traffic/vehicles. See: Law Enforcement (Powers and Responsibilities) Act 2002

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:36 am
by familyguy
ID yes, drivers licence when riding a bicycle, no. Just as you don't have to provide a drivers licence, specifically, when walking. This was the upshot of the discussions this time last year.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:48 am
by Thoglette
SheikYerbouti wrote:Police already have the power to require your ID

Seriously? Clearly the phrase: "Your papers, Comrade!" has lost its currency in NSW. How soon we forget.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:33 pm
by SheikYerbouti
That's right, you don't need a licence, you do need to provide your identity. Always have had to, always will need to.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:34 pm
by Warin
Thoglette wrote:
SheikYerbouti wrote:Police already have the power to require your ID

Seriously? Clearly the phrase: "Your papers, Comrade!" has lost its currency in NSW. How soon we forget.


Caution shade tree lawyering;
In NSW the police can legally require your name and address. You can verbally state it. That is all that is legally required. They can ask for proof - you don't have to provide it. They can ask further questions too. It is easiest to answer correctly .. provide proof if you have it, and the usual question is what is the nearest cross street to your address? As I don't have a cross street .. I simple say the name of a T street ... I think you could say anything quickly .. and unless they know (remote chance) you'll be taken as truthful.

Oh another question is your date of birth and then your age... I don't remember my age so have to do a little maths .. I fairly good at maths so that has not caused any problems so far.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:27 pm
by tcdev
g-boaf wrote:Every rider could obey every single law to the letter and someone will still complain because you are on the road, in front of them, blocking their way, or just even the fact of being so daring as to use a bike on the road to go somewhere, instead of just as a 20km/h play-thing on the local park pathway... Uh, yeah... :roll:

Agreed, there will always be someone who takes exception to the mere fact that you choose to ride a bicycle. But - in the current climate - obeying the (sometimes stupid/dangerous) road rules goes some way towards taking away some of the ammunition that a lot of the complainants have. Not a total solution, but a step forward IMHO.

g-boaf wrote:In Europe there is none of this rubbish. The car drivers are brilliant over there.

Yes but we're talking about Australia here. It's a cultural thing; there's plenty of examples of things that aren't acceptable or frowned upon here that the Europeans are complete non-plussed about...

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:23 am
by human909
tcdev wrote:But - in the current climate - obeying the (sometimes stupid/dangerous) road rules goes some way towards taking away some of the ammunition that a lot of the complainants have.


The thing about ammunition. Is that taking 'some' away still leave plenty to shoot. And you only need one. Bicycle Network supporting taking away a disparity in fines, it occured and did anything change?
More ammunition:
-registration
-lycra
-riding two abreast
-riding during peak hour
-riding on roads designed for cars.

tcdev wrote:Not a total solution, but a step forward IMHO.

How is it a step forward? Towards what goal and how does it achieve it?

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:49 am
by bychosis
looking at the site, I suspect the majority of riders would not completely stop in the same situation.

Riding up hill to a stop line, to then turn right and head up some more incline. Slowing to a near stop on a bike gives you enough time to react and stop if required. Slowing to a near stop also allows you to remain on the pedals in a suitable gear and move off quickly and efficiently. Most drivers wouldn't give two hoots about a cyclist only nearly stopping In a similar spot. Riding through at full pace is a completely different matter though.

I doubt I'd stop completely, unless I spotted a patrol car. I suspect many others would be in the same boat. Obeying that particular rule for 'the greater good' doesn't make a lot of sense.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:24 pm
by 1Rowdy1
If it is dangerous to STOP and turn right, why not a hook turn?

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:28 pm
by mikesbytes
Bob_Hornsby wrote:Thanks for your remarks.

I was cycling up a hill, a trady with a trailer just overtook me. He stopped so I had to stop behind, but that was let us say 6m from the sign (car+trailer), then I went in. It is so unfair, because I choose these back streets as a safer alternative to Pacific Highway where police does nothing to enforce the law.


At what distance in NSW is it legal to stop behind the stop sign?

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:32 pm
by Mugglechops
You need to come to Nowra, not even the Police cars stop at stop signs here.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:09 pm
by Bob_Hornsby
mikesbytes wrote:
Bob_Hornsby wrote:Thanks for your remarks.

I was cycling up a hill, a trady with a trailer just overtook me. He stopped so I had to stop behind, but that was let us say 6m from the sign (car+trailer), then I went in. It is so unfair, because I choose these back streets as a safer alternative to Pacific Highway where police does nothing to enforce the law.


At what distance in NSW is it legal to stop behind the stop sign?


Somebody mentioned earlier, as close as you can to the stop line (full line). Not sure is it really specified in the law.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:27 pm
by MichaelB
From Australian Road Rules—8.12.2016
Part 7—Giving way
Division 1—Giving way at a stop sign, stop line, give way sign or give way line applying to the driver

(2) The driver must stop as near as practicable to, but before reaching—
(a) the stop line; or
(b) if there is no stop line—the stop sign.


Pretty clear and simple.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:28 am
by BenGr
MichaelB wrote:From Australian Road Rules—8.12.2016
Part 7—Giving way
Division 1—Giving way at a stop sign, stop line, give way sign or give way line applying to the driver

(2) The driver must stop as near as practicable to, but before reaching—
(a) the stop line; or
(b) if there is no stop line—the stop sign.


Pretty clear and simple.


Around my place, if I followed those rules I'd often have to stop, then roll another metre and stop again where I'm actually able to check if it's clear. The intersections are probably up to spec, and not altered to suit the location.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:54 am
by Cheesewheel
BenGr wrote:
MichaelB wrote:From Australian Road Rules—8.12.2016
Part 7—Giving way
Division 1—Giving way at a stop sign, stop line, give way sign or give way line applying to the driver

(2) The driver must stop as near as practicable to, but before reaching—
(a) the stop line; or
(b) if there is no stop line—the stop sign.


Pretty clear and simple.


Around my place, if I followed those rules I'd often have to stop, then roll another metre and stop again where I'm actually able to check if it's clear. The intersections are probably up to spec, and not altered to suit the location.

I recall a motorist who went to court about 4 years ago under similar circumstances. IIRC , he stopped a little past the official stop line for the sake of getting clear vision of the intersection (yet still out of the flow of oncoming traffic). He took it before the judge, who acknowledged the reasons the driver did what he did, but still made him pay out for the fine plus court surcharges. I don't say this for leverage to establish what is right or wrong. I say it to illustrate how resilient the courts can be to what appears to be straight forward common sense when it comes to traffic violations.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:50 am
by Bob_Hornsby
Just to keep you in a loop. Got a 330 $ fine with minimum 3 demerit points.

Went to Police station to see the evidence, the S/C (who issued the penalty) was not available ? !!!

Not sure is there any point asking for the review or go straight to the court ?

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:04 am
by find_bruce
Bob_Hornsby wrote:Just to keep you in a loop. Got a 330 $ fine with minimum 3 demerit points.

Went to Police station to see the evidence, the S/C (who issued the penalty) was not available ? !!!

Not sure is there any point asking for the review or go straight to the court ?

The good news is that you don't need to worry about the demerit points s32 of the Road Transport Act 2013 provides that demerit points apply to offences relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles (my emphasis).

If you decide to have your day in court
  • Expect it to take all day - you might get lucky, but don't count on it
  • You are technically guilty, so plead guilty
  • The court can decide the fine should be anywhere between $0 and $2,200
  • Your best argument seems to me to be arguing about the penalty on the basis that not stopping at a stop sign can be very serious, but in your case your very low speed means the offence was trivial - have a look at sections 10 & 10A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999
  • Make it personal - you want the court to know your age & if its true, your good character, eg never been in trouble with the law, been riding a bike for X years & never been booked
  • get a copy of your driving record from the RMS - if its good highlight it, if there are negative things there, deal with them - eg in my case I would say something like I had a poor driving record as a teenager & young adult, but I have worked hard to improve & my record now is very good.
  • Sit in the court & watch how the judge deals with the cases before you - see what works & what doesn't
You are trying to tread a fine line - you want the judge to think "why are the police wasting my time with this ?" rather than "this bloke thinks the law doesn't apply to him so I need to smack him".

One way to start might be "I'm sorry to have to take up the court's time with this your honour. I have pleaded guilty to failing to stop at a stop sign, an offence that can be extremely serious with devastating consequences for all involved. In my case I was riding my bicycle along Kuringai Avenue. Kuringai Avenue is a small street with a bit of a hill & it can be a bit hard on a bicycle, particularly re-starting from a stop. I stopped behind a car at the intersection. The car drove off and I rolled up to the intersection. I looked very carefully to see that there was no approaching traffic, but I was a bit lazy and did not come to a complete stop at the stop line ...

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:52 am
by Bob_Hornsby
find_bruce wrote:The good news is that you don't need to worry about the demerit points s32 of the Road Transport Act 2013 provides that demerit points apply to offences relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles (my emphasis).

If you decide to have your day in court
  • Expect it to take all day - you might get lucky, but don't count on it
  • You are technically guilty, so plead guilty
  • The court can decide the fine should be anywhere between $0 and $2,200
  • Your best argument seems to me to be arguing about the penalty on the basis that not stopping at a stop sign can be very serious, but in your case your very low speed means the offence was trivial - have a look at sections 10 & 10A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999
  • Make it personal - you want the court to know your age & if its true, your good character, eg never been in trouble with the law, been riding a bike for X years & never been booked
  • get a copy of your driving record from the RMS - if its good highlight it, if there are negative things there, deal with them - eg in my case I would say something like I had a poor driving record as a teenager & young adult, but I have worked hard to improve & my record now is very good.
  • Sit in the court & watch how the judge deals with the cases before you - see what works & what doesn't
You are trying to tread a fine line - you want the judge to think "why are the police wasting my time with this ?" rather than "this bloke thinks the law doesn't apply to him so I need to smack him".

One way to start might be "I'm sorry to have to take up the court's time with this your honour. I have pleaded guilty to failing to stop at a stop sign, an offence that can be extremely serious with devastating consequences for all involved. In my case I was riding my bicycle along Kuringai Avenue. Kuringai Avenue is a small street with a bit of a hill & it can be a bit hard on a bicycle, particularly re-starting from a stop. I stopped behind a car at the intersection. The car drove off and I rolled up to the intersection. I looked very carefully to see that there was no approaching traffic, but I was a bit lazy and did not come to a complete stop at the stop line ...


Thanks @find_bruce very useful. The penalty does not mention me being a cyclist at all. It says "Not stop at stop line", that is all.

I find it completely disproportioned compared to this fine, that if you speed 20km/h you get fined 265 $ and 3 demerit points (with a serious risk of killing somebody). If the fine is upheld, I think this should be mentioned to the Magistrate.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:13 am
by bychosis
find_bruce wrote:The car drove off and I rolled up to the intersection. I looked very carefully to see that there was no approaching traffic, but I was a bit lazy and did not come to a complete stop at the stop line ...


I wouldn't be suggesting to the magistrate that I was 'being lazy'. Perhaps, that 'I assessed the risk and considered it safer to slowly roll through than to stop and have to restart from stationary'

Bob_Hornsby wrote:I find it completely disproportioned compared to this fine, that if you speed 20km/h you get fined 265 $ and 3 demerit points (with a serious risk of killing somebody). If the fine is upheld, I think this should be mentioned to the Magistrate.


I disagree, I think that not stopping at a stop sign (in a car) is significantly more dangerous than speeding 20km/h over, except perhaps with the exception of high pedestrian areas and school zones.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:34 am
by Bob_Hornsby
find_bruce wrote:[*]You are technically guilty, so plead guilty


Can somebody clarifies at the court to what pleading guilty really refers here.

If it is technical, have I not completely stopped, than yes.

But I do not feel guilty for not stopping in that particular situation due to safety reasons.

Thanks !

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:36 am
by Bob_Hornsby
bychosis wrote:I disagree, I think that not stopping at a stop sign (in a car) is significantly more dangerous than speeding 20km/h over, except perhaps with the exception of high pedestrian areas and school zones.


I am talking about my particular situation hinting that the penalty is disproportionate.