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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:47 am
by P!N20
find_bruce wrote:Legal advice


Your fees may outweigh the fine.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:56 am
by bychosis
Bob_Hornsby wrote:
bychosis wrote:I disagree, I think that not stopping at a stop sign (in a car) is significantly more dangerous than speeding 20km/h over, except perhaps with the exception of high pedestrian areas and school zones.


I am talking about my particular situation hinting that the penalty is disproportionate.

Then you should refer to the significant difference between slowly,carefully crossing a stop line on a bicycle, how easily you could stop to give way if required and the potential impact to yourself if you did not give way vs the potential for harm of 2 tonnes of steel not stopping to give way.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:19 pm
by mikesbytes
I don't know what the fine is for a cyclists but there are no points taken off your license

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:19 pm
by ValleyForge
P!N20 wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Legal advice


Your fees may outweigh the fine.

"Will".

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:07 pm
by Comedian
I'm sorry too.

Around where I ride and live the compliance of motorists is about 5% by my estimates. That is about 5% of motorists will stop correctly as per their requirements by law. I sat at the coffee shop and video'd it one morning ( :D ) and in 15 minutes - of the 50 that didn't have to stop (because they would have had a collision) only 2 actually did a proper legal stop.

The rest either just don't bother although some do at least make some effort to look like they are at least trying to make the appearance of stopping by slowing down to some extent.

So, given that I've never seen a cop booking anyone I've just given up as a general rule.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:46 pm
by Bob_Hornsby
mikesbytes wrote:I don't know what the fine is for a cyclists but there are no points taken off your license


How can I prove that ?! On the penalty notice, it is not stated at all that I was on a bicycle.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:00 pm
by Arbuckle23
Comedian wrote: That is about 5% of motorists will stop correctly as per their requirements by law. I sat at the coffee shop and video'd it one morning ( :D ) and in 15 minutes - of the 50 that didn't have to stop (because they would have had a collision) only 2 actually did a proper legal stop.


If only they had rego, you could report them. :P :)

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:41 pm
by Bob_Hornsby
Bob_Hornsby wrote:How can I prove that ?! On the penalty notice, it is not stated at all that I was on a bicycle.


On the RMS web site http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... eneral.pdf
on page 8, section bicycles it does not mention stopping at the stop sign at all (without lights).

Does this holds from the general driving offences ?

Can somebody comment please ?

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:44 pm
by mikesbytes
Bob_Hornsby wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I don't know what the fine is for a cyclists but there are no points taken off your license


How can I prove that ?! On the penalty notice, it is not stated at all that I was on a bicycle.
I suspect that if you notified them of the error they would correct it. I guess you just have to try.

Also does the ticket include some sort of description of the vehicle? Perhaps a rego number. If that info is blank then that will help you.

BTW if you have any points on your license your green slip will cost more. The combo of the ticket and the extra cost of the green slip will amount to something like $1K over 3 years

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:12 pm
by Comedian
Arbuckle23 wrote:
Comedian wrote: That is about 5% of motorists will stop correctly as per their requirements by law. I sat at the coffee shop and video'd it one morning ( :D ) and in 15 minutes - of the 50 that didn't have to stop (because they would have had a collision) only 2 actually did a proper legal stop.


If only they had rego, you could report them. :P :)

I might send that in on April 1st next year...

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:54 pm
by Warin
Bob_Hornsby wrote:Can somebody comment please ?


Go spend some money. On a lawyer. Or pay the fine.

---------------------------------------------
Bicycles are legally defined as vehicles.
Vehicles are legally required to stop at stop signs.

End of story.

If you want to muck around .. don't use the guide... use the actual act ...
https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/view ... ta2013187/

and the regulations
https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/view ... rr2014104/

Specifically part 7 divison 1 - 67 - Regulation 63 section 2
The driver must stop as near as practicable to, but before reaching:

(a) the stop line, or

(b) if there is no stop line--the intersection.


Then Part 21 - 348 - Regulation 19
References to driver includes rider etc

Unless otherwise expressly stated in these Rules, each reference in these Rules (except in this Division) to a
"driver" includes a reference to a rider, and each reference in these Rules (except in this Division) to
"driving" includes a reference to riding.


Note this ignores any case law that may apply ...
Now go spend some money.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:43 pm
by Bob_Hornsby
@Warin Thank you so much for your detailed and very informative reply.

Yes, I am very happy to spend 330$ on bicycle spare parts, donate toward cycling paths or UNICEF.

I think it is important to fight it, with a hope it will increase visibility of cycling related specificities and reduce police overprotection especially exercised on cyclist (triviality of offences).

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:46 pm
by uart
Bob_Hornsby wrote:I think it is important to fight it, with a hope it will increase visibility of cycling related specificities and reduce police overprotection especially exercised on cyclist (triviality of offences).


I'm glad you're going to fight it Bob. I'm sure that I'm not the only one here that will be interested in the outcome.

Remember that you're not trying to prove that you didn't do it. You're just asking for leniency based on the low risk of harm to others, given the low speed, low power and low weight of the bicycle - and hopefully get a chance to point out the negative impact of this law to your own personal safety (increasing the amount of time you spend in a vulnerable road position etc).

Just one "heads up" regarding the safety issue. A common argument against cyclists making this claim (that fully stopping actually reduces rather than increases their safety) is to say something stupid like:

"but what if a car is coming and you have to fully stop? If you can't even safely stop at a stop sign then how is it even safe for you to cycle at all".

You need to have a quick counter to that argument ready to go, and that is to say something along the lines of:

"yes there is always some risks involved in cycling and we have to try to minimize them as much as possible, as for example I was doing by taking back roads. The risks are always there, but we try to minimize them rather than maximize them).

BTW. You don't have cross examinations or high power prosecutors grilling you or any nonsense like that in simple traffic matters like this. It's just a very low key affair in front of a local magistrate. He will ask you to briefly to explain your side of the story and perhaps ask you a question or two. The cop may or may not even be bothered to turn up, but if he does then the magistrate will let him have his say too, and then he'll make a decision.

Magistrates have a lot of freedom to adjust the penalties for minor issues like this and it's not at all infrequent for them find a case proven but not apply any penalty at all (section 10 dismissal) if they think the matter is trivial enough. At the end of the day though, I think it will probably come down more to whether the particular magistrate is "bike friendly" or not. If you're lucky enough to get a magistrate who is a keen cyclist themselves, then it's probably a certain "section 10" dismissal. :)

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:59 pm
by uart
BTW. Just by the way of an example, here is a case against a cyclist that was "thrown out" in court. http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/ ... ist-clown/

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:41 pm
by Bob_Hornsby
uart wrote:BTW. Just by the way of an example, here is a case against a cyclist that was "thrown out" in court. http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/ ... ist-clown/


Thanks @uart for the encouragement and suggestions. I am at the moment making a request for the review based on the safety aspect, than will take it from there. Definitely, will provide updates.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:17 pm
by baabaa
I don't really have much to offer other than it may seem that your plod may have been a bit short on bookings for the month (if in fact that is even a thing in NSW). I am a bit surprised that you have been fined and did not just get a warning.
Was it a local or the highway patrol? If you do go to court I would telling the North Sydney Highway patrol station that you are doing so and ask if they could change the fine to a warning to save both sides the time and effort. If you do go to court again just agree that you did not stop but feel that a warning would have been sufficient.
Was it going up and onto the Pacific Highway? If so I doubt I would go to court but good luck

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:44 am
by Bob_Hornsby
@baabaa it was a highway patrol. An ambush, for the cars I suppose, but since there was nobody else at the time I was an easy target.

Not sure what you mean by this:
"Was it going up and onto the Pacific Highway? If so I doubt I would go to court but good luck"

At Bobbin head rd I connected to Pacific Highway.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:25 am
by baabaa
Just that with not stopping before a major road like the Pacific Highway I doubt you would have any luck in getting off. Bobbin Head rd is also pretty busy..... I don't know how much "luck" you will have with the Highway Patrol as they would hear every excuse in regard to traffic rules and would know how they would stand if these things do go to court. The Nth Syd lot are known to be pretty hard on the rules for driving and they also deal out the fines of riding on footpaths and non stopping (but at traffic lights) issues for bike riders going off and on the north side of the SHB.
If you really want to go to court I would suggest you contact Bike Sydney for some background and maybe some legal guidance or recommendations.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:03 pm
by biker jk
baabaa wrote:Just that with not stopping before a major road like the Pacific Highway I doubt you would have any luck in getting off. Bobbin Head rd is also pretty busy..... I don't know how much "luck" you will have with the Highway Patrol as they would hear every excuse in regard to traffic rules and would know how they would stand if these things do go to court. The Nth Syd lot are known to be pretty hard on the rules for driving and they also deal out the fines of riding on footpaths and non stopping (but at traffic lights) issues for bike riders going off and on the north side of the SHB.
If you really want to go to court I would suggest you contact Bike Sydney for some background and maybe some legal guidance or recommendations.


He was turning from Karuah Rd into Kur-Ring-Gai Ave. Might be an idea to read his first few posts.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:24 pm
by Comedian
My neighbor was busted for not stopping doing a track stand. :(

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:25 pm
by Comedian
My neighbor was busted for not stopping doing a track stand. :(

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:02 pm
by bychosis
Twice? That's unlucky.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:41 pm
by mikesbytes
Comedian wrote:My neighbor was busted for not stopping doing a track stand. :(

Is there a requirement in QLD law that a cyclists places their foot on the ground?

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:04 pm
by Comedian
mikesbytes wrote:
Comedian wrote:My neighbor was busted for not stopping doing a track stand. :(

Is there a requirement in QLD law that a cyclists places their foot on the ground?


No there is not - only that they must stop (like a car). The officer gave him a ticket - possibly if he wanted he could fight it. But as usual.. he decided it was more trouble than it's worth and he's a lawyer by trade.

Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:06 pm
by silentC
You have to be pretty good at a track stand to do one without your wheels moving :)