Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

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ValleyForge
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby ValleyForge » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:20 pm

bychosis wrote:Twice? That's unlucky.

I'd say fair enough. Police officer figured he was a ShoPo. :twisted:
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby uart » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 pm

Comedian wrote:My neighbor was busted for not stopping doing a track stand. :(

That is just plain ridiculous. I wish that he had of contested it in court. I can't imagine that it would have been upheld, given that there is no specific requirement under the law to put your foot down. :?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:51 pm

Comedian wrote:No there is not - only that they must stop (like a car). The officer gave him a ticket - possibly if he wanted he could fight it. But as usual.. he decided it was more trouble than it's worth and he's a lawyer by trade.


Now this is not really encouraging if I am about to go to the court.

BTW, I forgot to mention it was a highway patrol who fined me. So pathetic, fancy car with bunch of antennas and you penalise a bicycle and on the back road :).

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby trailgumby » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:50 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I don't know what the fine is for a cyclists but there are no points taken off your license


How can I prove that ?! On the penalty notice, it is not stated at all that I was on a bicycle.

You don't need to prove it. You just need to establish reasonable doubt over the prosecution case. Do you use strava? Was a M/V registration number recorded on the TIN?

That's a stuff-up, but I'm not sure how serious. It seems to amount to the NSW Highway Patrol overstepping the law with the penalty and hitting your motor vehicle license with demerits for a bicycle offense. On its own, that warrants taking the matter to court if your license number is mentioned in the Traffic Infringement Notice. Also, I understand that apart from running a red light and certain other offences where the penalties were increased in March last year, the maximum penalty for bicycle riders is $106, but I am checking up on that.

@Find_Bruce - would you care to comment?

On that basis I'd be asking the court to hit the prosecution with your court costs, because you would otherwise have simply paid the fine.

Demerit points only apply to driving a motor vehicle. You do not need a license to operate a pedal bicycle, so demerits do not apply in NSW. It may differ in Queensland.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby trailgumby » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:07 pm

Also, if you are not a member yet you may wish to join Bicycle NSW and reach out to them for help. They are begin quite proactive in engaging with Police on matters like these where there is an error in the application of the law.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby bychosis » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:22 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
Comedian wrote:No there is not - only that they must stop (like a car). The officer gave him a ticket - possibly if he wanted he could fight it. But as usual.. he decided it was more trouble than it's worth and he's a lawyer by trade.


Now this is not really encouraging if I am about to go to the court.

I read that a bit different. He’s a lawyer, so he’s got lots of spare cash and couldn’t be bothered. Spend the morning fighting over a couple of hundred or go and earn a grand.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby ValleyForge » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:04 pm

trailgumby wrote:It may differ in Queensland.

Nope. Same same.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:12 am

trailgumby wrote:
On that basis I'd be asking the court to hit the prosecution with your court costs, because you would otherwise have simply paid the fine.


Thanks for the excellent suggestion. I was thinking something on similar lines asking the court why the penalty notice states minimum 3 demerit points.

Also, the fine is 330$, in legislation (if I find it will add it later) it states something MAX, does it mean it is the maximum payable amount ?
Just wondering, if each fine has a range or it is a fixed amount ?

Thanks !

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby find_bruce » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:45 pm

trailgumby wrote:@Find_Bruce - would you care to comment?
Don't accept advice from random people on te interwebs which may or may not be accurate. Look at the general information & make your own decision.

Some background is required - only a court can issue a fine - technically a penalty notice is just a payment to avoid having to spend the day in court.

In the case of not stopping at a stop sign, the offence is contrary to rule 67(1)
67 Stopping and giving way at a stop sign or stop line at an intersection without traffic lights
(1) A driver at an intersection with a stop sign or stop line, but without traffic lights, must stop and give way in accordance with this rule.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
(2) The driver must stop as near as practicable to, but before reaching:
(a) the stop line, or
(b) if there is no stop line—the intersection.

A bicycle is a vehicle, but not a motor vehicle, and a reference to driver includes rider: road rules 14-19.

A penalty unit in NSW is currently [rul=https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/1999/92/part2/div4/sec17]$110[/url]. The court has a discretion how much to fine you, from $0 all the way up to the maximum for for the particular offence, 20 x $110 = $2,200.

The penalty notice however is an amount fixed by the Road Transport (General) Regulation 2013, Division 2 and Schedule 5. Starting with Schedule 5, you will note some offences have different levels for different classes of vehicles, including bicycles, motor vehicles & even class of motor vehicle.

Road rule 67(1) is part of a group of road rules, where the only distinction is a school zone is a level 6 penalty & everywhere else is level 5. That is there is no distinction for this particular penalty between different classes of vehicles. Going back to regulation 123, Level 5 means a penalty of $330. The cop doesn't have any choice as to the amount of the penalty - that only happens if you go to court where the fine will be somewhere between $0 & $2,200. It is not unusual for a magistrate to set a lower fine, but then you pay court costs, so that the total comes out a bit higher than $330.

So the offence doesn't require you to be in charge of a motor vehicle & challenging it on the basis that you were on a bicycle is not likely to get you far in court.

Neither the Court nor the cop have anything to do with demerit points. They are a statutory consequence of offences relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles (my emphasis). You need to start with section 32 of the Road Transport Act 2013 which limits the scheme to the use of motor vehicles. You then turn to the Road Transport (Driver Licensing) Regulation 2017 at regulation 71 and in this case schedule 1.

Road rule 67 (except in a school zone) is then listed as carrying 3 demerit points. As I said this is limited by the requirement in the Act that the offence relate to the operation of a motor vehicle.
mikesbytes wrote:I don't know what the fine is for a cyclists but there are no points taken off your license
Bob_Hornsby wrote:How can I prove that ?! On the penalty notice, it is not stated at all that I was on a bicycle.
trailgumby wrote:You don't need to prove it.

Mikebytes & trailgumby are correct - there are no demerit points for offences relation to the use of a bicycle & you have no obligation to prove it.

Demerit points are dealt with by the bureaucracy - I don't know whether that is state revenue or the RMS. Whenever you are dealing with bureaucracy, you should be aware that they are not going to look past the form that is in front of them. If you assert "I was riding a bicycle" the response is likely to be something along the lines of "that's not on the form". A better approach is to use it to your advantage & require the bureaucracy to identify the motor vehicle.

Am I correct in thinking in your case the penalty notice says that it incurs 3 demerit points ? While that won't get you too far in court, you can use it to your advantage with the bureaucracy. Start by writing to the office of state revenue stating something like "I note the penalty notice claims that this offence incurs 3 demerit points. Section 32 of the Road Transport Act 2013 provides that demerit points only apply to offences relating to the driving or use of motor vehicles however the penalty notice does not identify the motor vehicle that I was alleged to be driving. Accordingly can you please identify the make, model, colour and registration number of the motor vehicle that I am alleged to have been driving.

If they refuse to supply that, your next step is making an application under the Government Information (Public Access) Act 2009.

If it gets to court, you then say the penalty notice says I was driving a motor vehicle, but no-one has identified the motor vehicle I was alleged to have been driving. It is probably not enough to get it dismissed - driving a motor vehicle is not part of the offence - but stranger things have happened.

Once the matter has been resolved, either by going to court or paying the penalty notice, get a print out of your driving record from the RMS - if it lists the offence, repeat the request for the RMS to identify the motor vehicle.

trailgumby wrote:On that basis I'd be asking the court to hit the prosecution with your court costs, because you would otherwise have simply paid the fine.

Probably not - (1) the court doesn't decide demerit points & the stuff up is probably not enough to get the case dismissed & (2) if you are representing yourself, you don't get to recover he cost of your time in attending court.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby MichaelB » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:29 pm

Crikey, I'll just make sure I stop next time. My head hurts from reading the find_bruce !!

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:08 pm

Demerit points are dealt with by the bureaucracy - I don't know whether that is state revenue or the RMS.


Why do I have to deal with the bureaucracy at all ?

If they just copy-paste and are lazy or feel disgusted to write it was a bicycle, it is an error in the notice.


Am I correct in thinking in your case the penalty notice says that it incurs 3 demerit points ?


It says minimum 3 demerit points.


If it gets to court, you then say the penalty notice says I was driving a motor vehicle, but no-one has identified the motor vehicle I was alleged to have been driving. It is probably not enough to get it dismissed - driving a motor vehicle is not part of the offence - but stranger things have happened.
[/quote]

The notice does not specify that I was driving/rego number. I am planning to say in the court that the penalty notice is not comprehensible to me since it clearly states that the penalty incurs demerit points. I think this is sufficient to justify why the case is elevated to the court because I need some legal framework stating that I was a cyclist and that demerit points will not apply as stated on the penalty notice.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:02 pm

But you can't ignore those points, you must get them removed. If you don't then you will pay more for green slips for 3 years
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:33 pm

Just gave a call to the state revenue:

-leniency that you have no previous (10 years) bicycle related offences is not applicable.

- about demerit points they could not work it out and I am told that the matter will be transferred to different department for an investigation.

a) they told me to call them in 2 weeks if I do not hear from them :shock: ??! By that time the deadline to request a review will pass.

b) the lady on the phone asked am I sure it was not a motorbike :mrgreen: ?

Any thoughts are welcome !

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Kronos » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:17 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:Hello, I am cycling every working day from Hornsby to Lindfield and back.

This morning, at Kuringai Avenue, small street going uphill, I was stopped by a policeman and fined for crossing a stop sign without stopping.

Since it was uphill I was not going more than 5km/h, and clearly was very observant recorded by the camera on my helmet.

Do I have any chance in the court ?

Needless to say there was no any traffic, so I guess they did not have anyone else to pick up.

Thanks for your thoughts !


None what so ever, if you ride on the road the road rules apply. If you don't want to abide by the road rules, find a bike path.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:53 pm

Just a quick update.

Got response from SDC on my review request. They ignored everything, a safety concern which was expected, and even clarification on the demerit points which are not applicable for a cyclist but clearly featuring on the penalty notice.

In addition they claim that I went through 20km/h which is not true and I am sure they can not substantiate that with the evidence.

Not sure why they are claiming/exposing that ?

Now there are 2 options, to ask them to identify the number plates of my vehicle and go to the court ?

Any comments are welcome !

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Warin » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:04 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote: ask them to identify the number plates of my vehicle


Number plates are NOT required on a bicycle. Not required on a pedestrian either - yet they too have road rules to obey.

Quit trying to find a legal loop hole based on your misunderstanding of the law. If you want to find a legally valid loop hole hire a lawyer. As I have said before go pay money to a lawyer.

Go to court with these kind of arguments and the maximum penalty will probably be applied, and the court will have my sympathy not you. 4 pages and still grasping at legally non existent straws.
Last edited by Warin on Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:38 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
In addition they claim that I went through 20km/h which is not true and I am sure they can not substantiate that with the evidence.


Don't you have helmet camera footage so we can judge if you were doing 20kmh?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:14 pm

biker jk wrote:Don't you have helmet camera footage so we can judge if you were doing 20kmh?


I have (not showing the speed), my estimate leq 2m/s.
But I do not understand why they mentioned it and how is that relevant for the case ?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby biker jk » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:21 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:
biker jk wrote:Don't you have helmet camera footage so we can judge if you were doing 20kmh?


I have (not showing the speed), my estimate leq 2m/s.
But I do not understand why they mentioned it and how is that relevant for the case ?


Let's see the video.

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Thoglette » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:22 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:Any comments are welcome !


There's one from Abraham Lincoln you should consider.

Based on the responses you've got, right now you're on a hiding to nothing. Speaking of hidings: do you know if costs can be awarded against you? You really need a professional opinion on whether your case is even arguable.

Meanwhile, for your entertainment, The Cruel Sea.
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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby Bob_Hornsby » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:41 pm

Before deciding to go to court, would anyone now if for the traffic offense I need to pay court levy ?

"If you plead guilty or are found guilty of any offence the court will order that you pay mandatory court costs of $85 (as at July 2015) "

Thanks !

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby human909 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:27 pm

Bob_Hornsby wrote:I think this is sufficient to justify why the case is elevated to the court because I need some legal framework stating that I was a cyclist and that demerit points will not apply as stated on the penalty notice.


That is an EXCELLENT argument to avoid court costs. In my uninformed opinion. If they are trying to wrongly attribute demerit points to you then that alone is an excellent reason why a contest of the penalty notice is needed.

In might not get you out of the fine though....

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby MichaelB » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:34 pm

Only one way of I find out !!

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:57 pm

The points on your license will cost you a lot of money, something like $700 over 3 years for your green slip. Possibly your car insurance will be more expensive too - for 3 years
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Fined for not stopping at stop sign uphill

Postby find_bruce » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:02 pm

human909 wrote:
Bob_Hornsby wrote:I think this is sufficient to justify why the case is elevated to the court because I need some legal framework stating that I was a cyclist and that demerit points will not apply as stated on the penalty notice.


That is an EXCELLENT argument to avoid court costs. In my uninformed opinion. If they are trying to wrongly attribute demerit points to you then that alone is an excellent reason why a contest of the penalty notice is needed.

In might not get you out of the fine though....
Looks to me like a rubbish argument for two reasons (1) as I pointed out on earlier the local court has no role in deciding demerit points & the magistrate will know this & (2) mandatory court costs are mandatory. If you are found guilty the court can’t reduce or waive costs

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