Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Nobody
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Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby Nobody » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:26 pm

Just in case no one has posted it in one of the safety threads yet.

THE ABCS OF AWARENESS
Bontrager’s mission to make cyclists more visible

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Thoglette
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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists Buy More PPE

Postby Thoglette » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:42 pm

John Heywood (1546) wrote:There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby g-boaf » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:17 pm

Nobody wrote:Just in case no one has posted it in one of the safety threads yet.

THE ABCS OF AWARENESS
Bontrager’s mission to make cyclists more visible


If the driver is not watching then no amount of effort from anyone will do anything.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby human909 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:49 am

Seriously?

Cyclists are VISIBLE. So are pedestrians and trees.

The issue isn't lack of visibility.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:12 pm

Thanks Nobody.
There are 2 sides of course. As G-boaf says, a distracted driver, who isn't looking, still won't see.
It has to help though for most. Black helmets and jerseys are out for mine.
Whilst I don't think the responsibility for safety rests with the vulnerable road user, surely it is beholden on drivers to be vigilant, I plan to only buy colourful kit.
I do draw the line at Mapei though. lol

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Thoglette
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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby Thoglette » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:28 pm

warthog1 wrote:I plan to only buy colourful kit.

Which is fine when you're wearing "kit", silly shoes and an esky on your head. :D

No bloody use when I'm riding between offices; to the train station or to the shops. ( And no, I'm not going to get my suits made with reflective pin stripes)

Have a safe Christmas break everyone!
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby warthog1 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:13 pm

Thoglette wrote:
warthog1 wrote:I plan to only buy colourful kit.

Which is fine when you're wearing "kit", silly shoes and an esky on your head. :D

No bloody use when I'm riding between offices; to the train station or to the shops. ( And no, I'm not going to get my suits made with reflective pin stripes)

Have a safe Christmas break everyone!


Sure, but I thought I made a few points you happened to edit out.

warthog1 wrote:As G-boaf says, a distracted driver, who isn't looking, still won't see.
It has to help though for most. Black helmets and jerseys are out for mine.
Whilst I don't think the responsibility for safety rests with the vulnerable road user, surely it is beholden on drivers to be vigilant,


Furthermore, I know Nobody is an intelligent man from my time on this forum. I have pmed and otherwise interacted with him for almost 10 years. (My original forum ID was my name, in the interests of anonymity I changed it)
He understands that victim blaming is not on. I am very confident he has placed that article in the hope that it might improve the safety of a few roadies on the forum.
I am sure it wasn't placed with the view of excusing drivers from paying attention whilst driving, or with placing the onus of safety on the vulnerable ;)

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby Philistine » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:36 am

From the Bontrager article - As telling as these results are, they’re perhaps not a massive surprise – after all, the automotive industry has steadily introduced daytime running lights (DRLs) onto cars for some time now, partially off the back of studies showing a 25% reduction in collisions for cars using DRLs. However, the cycling industry was slow to catch on, focusing instead on lights for nighttime use – despite the fact that 80% of accidents involving bike riders occur during the day – and Bontrager’s Flare R tail light was, they claim, the first cycling light designed with daytime use in mind.

Disraeli famously said "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Drivers who switch on their lights in the daytime are clearly trying to make themselves more visible. Whether or not this works is immaterial - they are thinking about safety on the road, and that in itself probably makes them safer drivers - hence the 25% reduction.

I do 100% of my cycling in the daytime. I realize that a sample size of one is hardly statistically significant, but my gut tells me that total (cycling) kilometres traveled are heavily skewed towards daytime cycling - maybe 80:20! This would render the 80%-of-accidents stat meaningless. If the actual split were 81:19, then you would be statistically safer riding at night.

BTW - I always use a flashing rear light when I am riding on the road. It cannot do any harm and it might do some good.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby DavidS » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:52 pm

Yeah I tend to run lights in daylight, but my main fear is that they will make this compulsory (like helmets). The roads are for road vehicles and bicycles are road vehicles. If the roads aren't safe for bicycles they are not fit for purpose and need to be fixed, that may mean more space for bikes, or it can mean drivers behaviour needs to be changed. But greater visibility is an aid, not a complete solution.
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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby Thoglette » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:51 pm

warthog1 wrote:Sure, but I thought I made a few points you happened to edit out.

You did and I agree with your lines of argument. Along with the arguments (put by others) that we have a road and regulation design problem above and beyond this.
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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby warthog1 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:17 pm

Thoglette wrote:You did and I agree with your lines of argument. Along with the arguments (put by others) that we have a road and regulation design problem above and beyond this.


:)

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:39 am

Hi vis makes a diff...there's no doubt about it.
It isn't the complete answer but it is part of it.
I use a flashing headlight (either a 200 of 600 lumen) and two flashing 2watt rear lights when on busier urban roads.
You only need to get hit once.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby human909 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:14 am

CKinnard wrote:Hi vis makes a diff...there's no doubt about it.
It isn't the complete answer but it is part of it.

Go for a ride in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. And tell me that it is part of the answer.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby bychosis » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:10 am

CKinnard wrote:Hi vis makes a diff...there's no doubt about it.
It isn't the complete answer but it is part of it.
I use a flashing headlight (either a 200 of 600 lumen) and two flashing 2watt rear lights when on busier urban roads.
You only need to get hit once.

I agree bright colours and flashing lights help, but it’s a bit sad when people think that it makes them safer on bike paths. I see quite a few in our local path with a safety vest over their other kit.

Personally I choose not to wear hi-vis, don’t like it but I will avoid black and dark colours.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:26 pm

human909 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Hi vis makes a diff...there's no doubt about it.
It isn't the complete answer but it is part of it.

Go for a ride in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. And tell me that it is part of the answer.


They don't have Australia's culture of binge drinking and violence either, nor Australia's population growth rate.
and these are not going to change for the better in your life time.
so what's your plan B?

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby CKinnard » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:37 pm

bychosis wrote:I agree bright colours and flashing lights help, but it’s a bit sad when people think that it makes them safer on bike paths. I see quite a few in our local path with a safety vest over their other kit.

Personally I choose not to wear hi-vis, don’t like it but I will avoid black and dark colours.


like me, some probably do part of their journey on roads. though when I'm on paths, I put headlight on low beam or turn off if daylight still. I also shield it at night with oncoming peds and cyclists.

while driving 30+ years ago, I twice nearly hit cyclists. Both were wearing very dark clothing, and riding through shadows on a roundabout.
Either my car's A pillar blocked them or they blended into the shadows.
The second time was really close, and I've got into a habit of moving my head at intersections/roundabouts to erase the A pillar blindspot.

Plus as a health professional, I'm acutely aware of the general state of health in society. Until you understand how compromised it is, you cannot appreciate the need to be as visible as possible.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby warthog1 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:03 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Plus as a health professional, I'm acutely aware of the general state of health in society. Until you understand how compromised it is, you cannot appreciate the need to be as visible as possible.


+1
So impaired they are incapable of safe and expedient reaction when faced with the unexpected.
Many with impaired spatial awareness also.
The more I see of our standard of driving and attitudes toward it, the more concerned I get.
I think it was TG who put forward some stats on collision incidence whilst using a phone recently.
I agree with his assertion. You are caught using one whilst driving and you should have a mandatory licence suspension.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby warthog1 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:09 pm

human909 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Hi vis makes a diff...there's no doubt about it.
It isn't the complete answer but it is part of it.

Go for a ride in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. And tell me that it is part of the answer.



I accept that their uptake, infrastucture and attitudes are a quantum leap ahead of ours.
However I ride in rural areas. Infrastructure and attitudes aren't improving enough in the foreseeable future to make meaningful change for me.
We've just had a very personal tradegy up here in our roadie community.
I have commenced riding with a bright rear light during daylight as a result.
It can't hurt to be more visible regardless of whether it should be our responsibility or not.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby Nobody » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:17 pm

warthog1 wrote:Furthermore, I know Nobody is an intelligent man from my time on this forum. I have pmed and otherwise interacted with him for almost 10 years.

Thanks. :)

warthog1 wrote:He understands that victim blaming is not on.

To confirm, that is true.

warthog1 wrote:I am very confident he has placed that article in the hope that it might improve the safety of a few roadies on the forum.

Yes, that is the case. I mainly post these days to help others.

warthog1 wrote:I am sure it wasn't placed with the view of excusing drivers from paying attention whilst driving, or with placing the onus of safety on the vulnerable ;)

True. We may not be able to change the elitist and hostile environment we ride in. But we can make choices to reduce our risk.

I have a matching high-vis helmet and top and I've run flashing lights in the day time for many years now. Other than one tall truck which the flashing lights were too low for it to see, I've found all see me coming. It's just some choose to pull out anyway.

I had an experience in the car many years ago which changed my view on wearing multi-coloured cycle jerseys. I was driving in a lane at the speed limit in which you can either turn right or go straight ahead. In front was a single cyclist in the late stopped, intending to turn right. It disturbed me how close I got to him before I noticed him, although it wasn't close enough to be dangerous. He was wearing a multi-coloured jersey against a multi-coloured background so he blended in. It has been suggested that this is the same reason why many motorcyclists are harder to see. They, and/or their motorcycles are often are multi-coloured, often with lots of black.

Not intending to change the subject, but below is a motorcycle I'm considering buying in the next month as a commuter:
Image
Image
I wouldn't call it very visible. But visibility isn't the only criteria when buying a motorcycle. I intend to wear some hi-vis and a white helmet (since one colour hi-vis helmets are hard to find). I'll also have the headlight on during the day. I may also respray (Plasti Dip) parts of it for better visibility if I get it. I've also considered a headlight modulator and headlight upgrades like dual low beam on, since it only has one side on for low beam.

Not making any excuses for car drivers. Just sharing my experience in the hope it reduces rider risk.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby warthog1 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:03 pm

I worry for you as a middle aged man coming back to Motorbikes mate.
At least do a rider training refresher course.
My Brother-in-law bought a mid sized M/Cycle a couple of years back to commute from Eltham (suburban Melb) into the city. The idea was to save time.
I found out a couple of days back that a car turned right, across his path, and cleaned him up.
Bone graft on the 5th digit of his left hand and fractured clavicle.
Significant time off work.
Motorcyclists are vulnerable in much the same way as cyclists.
I'm sure you know that though.

Thanks for the original post.:) I am back using a rear light at all times.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby fat and old » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:29 pm

warthog1 wrote:
human909 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Hi vis makes a diff...there's no doubt about it.
It isn't the complete answer but it is part of it.

Go for a ride in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. And tell me that it is part of the answer.



I accept that their uptake, infrastucture and attitudes are a quantum leap ahead of ours.


I dunno about a quantum leap...but I’m sick to death of everything here being measured against Amsterdam and Copenhagen.

Here’s a thought. Instead of applying Copenhagen and Amsterdam to our issues, let’s apply our issues to Copenhagen and Amsterdam. Bring all of their cyclists over here for a month. Let’s see how they get along living with our reality. Hell, they can even have a helmet exemption.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby queequeg » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:01 pm

fat and old wrote:
warthog1 wrote:
human909 wrote:Go for a ride in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. And tell me that it is part of the answer.



I accept that their uptake, infrastucture and attitudes are a quantum leap ahead of ours.


I dunno about a quantum leap...but I’m sick to death of everything here being measured against Amsterdam and Copenhagen.

Here’s a thought. Instead of applying Copenhagen and Amsterdam to our issues, let’s apply our issues to Copenhagen and Amsterdam. Bring all of their cyclists over here for a month. Let’s see how they get along living with our reality. Hell, they can even have a helmet exemption.


Once upon a time, Copenhagen had "our issues". The difference is they made a choice to reject a car centric city, and today are therefore enjoying those benefits. Meantime, we continue to choke.

Until a city collectively decides that enough is enough, and stops building more motorways, more roads, wider roads etc, it's never going to get any better.

Whilst Hi-Vis is all good and well, in the Hierarchy of hazard controls, it sits right at the bottom with helmets (PPE). Just above it is Administrative Controls, which you would essentially equate with the Road Rules.

Image

If you really wanted to have any significant impact on safetly, you would start at the top and try and eliminate the hazard (get rid of cars), substitute the cars with something else (trains?), or physically separate the cars from everyone else (dedicated bicycle highways).

Nope, it's much easier for the govt to push paper around making laws, or force everyone to wear safety gear.
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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby g-boaf » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:07 pm

All this Dutch this, Dutch that is a great crock.

It's the mentality of the drivers that must change. Fix that, and you are pretty much done.

Heck most of Italy I went through had no special cycling infrastructure and was pretty car centric too. But the drivers all took care around all riders, everywhere. Send our drivers overseas and put those Italian drivers on our roads here in Sydney and you'd have no troubles riding a bike on any road in Sydney. While European roads would be a battlezone.

Physically remove the hazard, yeah, we do that already here, we try to punish riders and scare them from riding bikes. Done. But people still ride, so it's obviously not working. Okay, sarcastic rant over.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby fat and old » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:09 pm

QueeQueg, the Dutch didn’t stop building roads, in fact they still are including freeways/motorways that specifically ban cycle use. They did however give over a great swarth of infrastructure to cycles and prioritise people elsewhere. I wish we had that here. We don’t and won’t without education which is what the Dutch gave themselves. Which is why introducing any RA type hierarchy of controls here is a bad move imo. G-Boaf is right. Education. But for now, I’ll happily utilise the general thoughts of that article. Do you run lights?

BTW, do you remember the thread on the lady who wrote an article for the Age claiming male cyclists in Melbourne were bad people? Being Dutch she had some trauma adjusting to our realities. Have a look at the postings, or the comments in the article or Facebook......by cyclists.

Maybe we are car-centric; those comments reveal a deeper issue imo.

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Re: Bontrager's Mission to Make Cyclists More Visible

Postby queequeg » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:01 pm

fat and old wrote:QueeQueg, the Dutch didn’t stop building roads, in fact they still are including freeways/motorways that specifically ban cycle use. They did however give over a great swarth of infrastructure to cycles and prioritise people elsewhere. I wish we had that here. We don’t and won’t without education which is what the Dutch gave themselves. Which is why introducing any RA type hierarchy of controls here is a bad move imo. G-Boaf is right. Education. But for now, I’ll happily utilise the general thoughts of that article. Do you run lights?

BTW, do you remember the thread on the lady who wrote an article for the Age claiming male cyclists in Melbourne were bad people? Being Dutch she had some trauma adjusting to our realities. Have a look at the postings, or the comments in the article or Facebook......by cyclists.

Maybe we are car-centric; those comments reveal a deeper issue imo.




I would agree that Education is the key, but that education needs to be started early and is fundamental to the licensing process. Education at the moment seems to be regular pleas from police for "drivers to be careful and slow down, and please don't kill anyone".
There is a lot that could be done on the driver training and licensing front that politicians can't stomach because the motoring public wouldn't vote for it.
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