Runners running in cycling lanes

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silentC
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby silentC » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:41 pm

Surely those triathletes with the clip-on aero bars are the least-liked group in the community?
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Kronos
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby Kronos » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:54 pm

Any rider riding aero on the road shall instantly be disliked. Whose to say who here is a "super commuter?" I don't see anyone riding an electric bike in this thread...

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby fat and old » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:33 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
DavidS wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:
In my book, it's akin to the "bicycle must ride in the bicycle lane" or "bicycle must keep left" rules - there's an "if practicable" caveat: pedestrians must use the footpath... if practicable. I'm happy to trust a runner to use their own judgement for their own safety, and use the road if they feel the footpath is less safe; as long as they face oncoming traffic, and give way to oncoming traffic (including bicycles).


Uh no, bicycles are road vehicles and have a right to use the road, pedestrians are not road vehicles and don't. The law does specify cyclists should use a bike lane unless it isn't practicable, the rule for pedestrians is they can only use the road if there is no footpath. There's a world of difference there.


ARR 238: "A pedestrian must not travel along a road if there is a footpath or nature strip adjacent to the road, unless it is impracticable to travel on the footpath or nature strip."


Which being the same as cycle lanes means whenever they want. Just apply the usual cyclist justifications and you’ll be right.

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby warthog1 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:23 pm

Kronos wrote:Any rider riding aero on the road shall instantly be disliked. Whose to say who here is a "super commuter?" I don't see anyone riding an electric bike in this thread...


I briefly drove alongside a rider wearing JLT condor kit on a TT bike today. They come out here some summers.
He had just done an effort at about 55km/h. I know as I was behind him clocking the speedo.
I wound down the passenger window and yelled out "55km/h, nice work"
Got a big grin and a bit of a laugh in return. 8) :lol:

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:48 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
According to ARR 238 they may run/walk on either side (so long as there isn't a footpath):

238—Pedestrians travelling along a road (except in or on a wheeled recreational device or toy)
(1) A pedestrian must not travel along a road if there is a footpath or nature strip adjacent to the road, unless it is impracticable to travel on the footpath or nature strip.
(2) A pedestrian travelling along a road—
(a) must keep as far to the left or right side of the road as is practicable;

It is clear to anyone who has run where properties are on major roads or where there are high fences to the boundary that follwoign the strict letter of the law is a BAD choice and breaking the law is the smart thing to do.

Not any different to the many cyclists that also defer strict adherence to the law when it significantly adversely affects their safe passage. Using the Idaho stop regardless of the law is just one of many that comes to mind.
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silentC
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby silentC » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:00 pm

warthog1 wrote:I briefly drove alongside a rider wearing JLT condor kit on a TT bike today. They come out here some summers.
He had just done an effort at about 55km/h. I know as I was behind him clocking the speedo.
I wound down the passenger window and yelled out "55km/h, nice work"
Got a big grin and a bit of a laugh in return. 8) :lol:

I had a guy do that to me once along the airport straight. Fortunately there was a tailwind and I was doing 45. He slowed down and clocked me for a few seconds then yelled out '45!'. I'm like, yeah I know mate, my legs are telling me.

We have a couple of your townsfolk here at the moment. I rode with them this morning. Husband and wife team. He's not a bad time-trialler, must be all those flat roads out there ;)
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby baabaa » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:49 pm

silentC wrote:Surely those triathletes with the clip-on aero bars are the least-liked group in the community?

I agree with more or less everything you post here C and see you as somewhat of a cycling sage, but..... I guess you may have been in that dark cave a bit long as that was oh so very 2013.
Since gravel bikers started using them, most people I know would not dare to go past the driveway without them.
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby Kronos » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:56 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:
According to ARR 238 they may run/walk on either side (so long as there isn't a footpath):

238—Pedestrians travelling along a road (except in or on a wheeled recreational device or toy)
(1) A pedestrian must not travel along a road if there is a footpath or nature strip adjacent to the road, unless it is impracticable to travel on the footpath or nature strip.
(2) A pedestrian travelling along a road—
(a) must keep as far to the left or right side of the road as is practicable;

It is clear to anyone who has run where properties are on major roads or where there are high fences to the boundary that follwoign the strict letter of the law is a BAD choice and breaking the law is the smart thing to do.

Not any different to the many cyclists that also defer strict adherence to the law when it significantly adversely affects their safe passage. Using the Idaho stop regardless of the law is just one of many that comes to mind.


I will admit I engage in civil disobedience where my safety is of more importance... bunny hopping curbs rather than being collected by cars among other things. But I don't get the comment about high fences and I live in yuppy land where they build fences up the perimeter boundary and sometimes gates and fences (occasionally on council property) so that they have private beach access. What is interesting in yuppy land is that there are great expanses of concrete along the beach roads and never a soul do they use them.

In my example this would be a perfect case for using the pathway/bike track but I can understand the bitumen has more give than the vacant concrete track.

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silentC
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby silentC » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:58 pm

Since gravel bikers started using them, most people I know would not dare to go past the driveway without them.

Must admit we don't see rigs like that around here very often... There is a guy who has some sort of clip on bar thing but it points straight up in the air at about a 60 degree angle. He only has one arm so I guess it works a bit like a tiller on a boat.

BTW I was only kidding, I love all cyclists ;)
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby eldavo » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:33 pm

Kronos wrote:Any rider riding aero on the road shall instantly be disliked. Whose to say who here is a "super commuter?" I don't see anyone riding an electric bike in this thread...


I'm a super commutator with electric bicycles. And aero bars. On fat bikes. Insta link in sig. :D :lol:

Re: earlier response about me being polite calling this a rubbish thread, I've made dumb posts to the "dumb pedestrians" and "dumb cyclists" and "dumb motorists" threads. I've since reconciled that these things are a part of life, just or unjust, so it's more entertainment/lesson learnt now rather than whinge.

FYI trying not to do a born again preach, what helped me with chilling my attitude problem was some maths/statistics on time, distance, average speed, percentage of my day, differential, and substitution of variables (e.g. dogs, toddlers, tourists, happily distracted people, and the rest). And my relationship with Jesus and being vegan. (j/k ;-)
I'm more relaxed about commute time, getting up earlier and being later is the easy option.

I've got some good recent footage of the wandering dog, the toddler running across the road/carpark. My old commute footage had constant bell ringing that felt very stressful watching it back. Now I ride without bell and enjoy slowing down, people apologising or waving sorry and me saying "no worries", or just letting them carry on happily unaware without ruining their day. Even for the ninja rider in dark unlit paths using an ironic smartphone with face lit up brighter than any un-adjusted dazzling cycle light, I think better they're doing it on an isolated path on a bicycle than out on the street (although they probably take the bad behaviour with them whatever the mode of transport i.e. haters gonna hate, morons gonna moron, runners gonna run. Life's a garden, dig it. You can't have no in your heart. Is this what you wanna be doing when Jesus comes back? (Joe Dirt quotes)

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby warthog1 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:11 pm

silentC wrote:
warthog1 wrote:I briefly drove alongside a rider wearing JLT condor kit on a TT bike today. They come out here some summers.
He had just done an effort at about 55km/h. I know as I was behind him clocking the speedo.
I wound down the passenger window and yelled out "55km/h, nice work"
Got a big grin and a bit of a laugh in return. 8) :lol:

I had a guy do that to me once along the airport straight. Fortunately there was a tailwind and I was doing 45. He slowed down and clocked me for a few seconds then yelled out '45!'. I'm like, yeah I know mate, my legs are telling me.

We have a couple of your townsfolk here at the moment. I rode with them this morning. Husband and wife team. He's not a bad time-trialler, must be all those flat roads out there ;)



:)
Bendigo or Mildura?
I'm in Bendigo now and it is not so flat. They have a strong aversion to tt's in the local club too :(

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silentC
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby silentC » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:23 am

Yeah Bendigo. They come here every year to enjoy our hills (and the beaches) :)
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby warthog1 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:05 am

Not Tony?
It is flat to the north of town but lots of rollers south of town.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1347746747
Last edited by warthog1 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby silentC » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:46 am

Their names are Brad & Jenny.

That's not a bad climb though. The ride they did on Tuesday (I didn't go, had to work) was 1,600m over 104k. But the biggest climb is only 247m over about 8k. Mt Alexander looks like fun!
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby eeksll » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:51 am

Kronos wrote:...But I don't get the comment about high fences and I live in yuppy land where they build fences up the perimeter boundary and sometimes gates and fences (occasionally on council property) so that they have private beach access...


makes it hard/impossible for runners to see drivers backing out and vice versa.

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby warthog1 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:17 pm

silentC wrote:Their names are Brad & Jenny.

That's not a bad climb though. The ride they did on Tuesday (I didn't go, had to work) was 1,600m over 104k. But the biggest climb is only 247m over about 8k. Mt Alexander looks like fun!


I don't know them I don't think.
Mt Alex is fun. It's hard when you are one of the oldest and slowest in the bunch though :( lol.
The side we descended is steeper. That hurts.

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby silentC » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:21 pm

Well it looked like a pretty fast ride by my standards, so I'd be happy to be the oldest and slowest in that bunch!
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby warthog1 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:39 pm

silentC wrote:Well it looked like a pretty fast ride by my standards, so I'd be happy to be the oldest and slowest in that bunch!

I sat on.
We could vie for that honour. lol

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:31 pm

eeksll wrote:
Kronos wrote:...But I don't get the comment about high fences and I live in yuppy land where they build fences up the perimeter boundary and sometimes gates and fences (occasionally on council property) so that they have private beach access...


makes it hard/impossible for runners to see drivers backing out and vice versa.


Some cycleways/shared paths have the same problem. You just slow right down. If I can slow down to walking speed when riding, surely a runner can do that also.

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:50 pm

g-boaf wrote:
eeksll wrote:
Kronos wrote:...But I don't get the comment about high fences and I live in yuppy land where they build fences up the perimeter boundary and sometimes gates and fences (occasionally on council property) so that they have private beach access...


makes it hard/impossible for runners to see drivers backing out and vice versa.


Some cycleways/shared paths have the same problem. You just slow right down. If I can slow down to walking speed when riding, surely a runner can do that also.


Yes but we don't have that same problem every 15-20 metres, which is about how often a driveway is.

Let them run on the road (if there's no good alternative and they show some common sense). I don't care. We can all share.

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:20 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
eeksll wrote:
makes it hard/impossible for runners to see drivers backing out and vice versa.


Some cycleways/shared paths have the same problem. You just slow right down. If I can slow down to walking speed when riding, surely a runner can do that also.


Yes but we don't have that same problem every 15-20 metres, which is about how often a driveway is.

Let them run on the road (if there's no good alternative and they show some common sense). I don't care. We can all share.


Yeah we do some times, there is a shared path I use that has driveways all the way along it. Nothing for it but to slow down - it's not worth the risk of hitting a car reversing out of a concealed driveway. And the roadway beside it is only usable at 10pm when the traffic has eased off.

Slowing down when necessary is part of sharing.

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby 1Rowdy1 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:09 pm

Never seen a runner in a bike lane, but women pushing prams in the bike lane I see all the time

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:42 pm

Kronos wrote:But I don't get the comment about high fences and I live in yuppy land where they build fences up the perimeter boundary and sometimes gates and fences (occasionally on council property) so that they have private beach access.

I'm talking fences near the road verge, the other end of the block to what you are describing. Same hazard to runners as for cyclists, drivers reverse (largely blind of necessity) out and onto the footpath.

On the give of surfaces I found roads were fine and so was concrete, just gotta wear the right footwear. But the inconsistency of grass verges is where there are hidden depressions with level grass, a bugger for jarring the spine or tripping.
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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby eeksll » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:01 pm

g-boaf wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
Some cycleways/shared paths have the same problem. You just slow right down. If I can slow down to walking speed when riding, surely a runner can do that also.


Yes but we don't have that same problem every 15-20 metres, which is about how often a driveway is.

Let them run on the road (if there's no good alternative and they show some common sense). I don't care. We can all share.


Yeah we do some times, there is a shared path I use that has driveways all the way along it. Nothing for it but to slow down - it's not worth the risk of hitting a car reversing out of a concealed driveway. And the roadway beside it is only usable at 10pm when the traffic has eased off.

Slowing down when necessary is part of sharing.


I am not sure thats a fair call. Runners are usually out to run not walk, you can think of it as running on the footpath as long as it is safe to do so. In a similar scenario for a cyclist, i would as a cyclist ride out further on the road and not unlcip and walk the bike (think riding in the dooring zone for multiple kms)

"slowing down when necessary" is also part of sharing the road for the cyclist on the bike lane.

but more practically speaking, runners are out to run, if they run on a road where they are slowing down for cyclist/obstructions often, they won't run there very often ....

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Re: Runners running in cycling lanes

Postby Kronos » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:24 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
Kronos wrote:But I don't get the comment about high fences and I live in yuppy land where they build fences up the perimeter boundary and sometimes gates and fences (occasionally on council property) so that they have private beach access.

I'm talking fences near the road verge, the other end of the block to what you are describing. Same hazard to runners as for cyclists, drivers reverse (largely blind of necessity) out and onto the footpath.

On the give of surfaces I found roads were fine and so was concrete, just gotta wear the right footwear. But the inconsistency of grass verges is where there are hidden depressions with level grass, a bugger for jarring the spine or tripping.


I probably don't get it because most of the fences in yuppy land tend to be on the opposite side of the ocean views. I can concede a high fence line on a road might make it difficult to see people coming around a corner. My main concern when I'm riding is the number of rises and hollows followed by people parking their car and boat trailer in the supposed cycling lane.

I ran once, even with gel cushion shoes I ended up with hip bursitis. I don't believe my body is compliant with running. For point of interest I did the Noosa Tri 10k fun run and finished 13th out of my age group. I've ticked that off my bucket list I have no interest really in running anymore.

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