Lane keeping systems & cyclists

malnar
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Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby malnar » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:11 am

I know next to nothing about advanced safety systems, but as far as I can tell vehicles with lane keeping systems are on the market here. It seems, at least in some models, if the driver does not have the indicator on, the lane keeping system will resist a driver making a lane change/partial lane change to pass a cyclist.

http://road.cc/content/news/230853-semi-autonomous-bmw-will-%E2%80%98fight-driver%E2%80%99-deliver-close-passes-cyclists

g-boaf
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby g-boaf » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm

malnar wrote:I know next to nothing about advanced safety systems, but as far as I can tell vehicles with lane keeping systems are on the market here. It seems, at least in some models, if the driver does not have the indicator on, the lane keeping system will resist a driver making a lane change/partial lane change to pass a cyclist.

http://road.cc/content/news/230853-semi-autonomous-bmw-will-%E2%80%98fight-driver%E2%80%99-deliver-close-passes-cyclists


Audi on their new A7 and A8, that system will try to prevent you moving out of your lane unless you are actively doing a lane change, but I'm not sure how it will deal with a rider. I'm guessing it will recognise the rider and slow down.

I also think the BMW system isn't one of the most advanced ones and I don't think BMW ever markets it as such, they don't seem to be making as big a noise about it as Mercedes, Tesla and Audi is with their systems.

And they all rely on the driver to still be in control. I'd also like to know what the "resist" or "fight" means. I'm guessing it is probably a vibration from the steering wheel and a slight resistance but if you still conciously make the lane change with the steering wheel, then it will still let you do it.

Even Mercedes still adopts that method. If you make a lane change or swerve around an object it won't fight you, but in the case of a sudden swerve to avoid an object (like an animal or pedestrian), it will try to help you recover and not go into a spin.

In any case, you can still turn off these systems.

fat and old
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby fat and old » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:08 pm

I don't get it. The tech for two objects ( in this caes cars and cycles) to "talk" to each other exists. It's cheap. So set it to car brakes within 1.2m of a cycle to a stop. Take the decision out of the drivers hands, no reliance on some system "recognising" cycles, "horses" etc. Two little black boxes with electrickery that communicate. So simple. The urge to be smart and complicate shiz is what stops those things happening.

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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby g-boaf » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:32 pm

fat and old wrote:I don't get it. The tech for two objects ( in this caes cars and cycles) to "talk" to each other exists. It's cheap. So set it to car brakes within 1.2m of a cycle to a stop. Take the decision out of the drivers hands, no reliance on some system "recognising" cycles, "horses" etc. Two little black boxes with electrickery that communicate. So simple. The urge to be smart and complicate shiz is what stops those things happening.


The issue is what happens when multiple cars are around, trucks, buses as well. It's not two black boxes, it's many. If one stops, how about the others, can they stop soon enough or does the whole line go together like an accordion.

The whole thing doesn't seem that simple to me and it will need a hell of a lot of testing. And a computer I think still isn't as perceptive as we are, although they are getting better at it.

In any case, full autonomous driving is still illegal across most countries (perhaps all) around the world and for good reason. Even though some cars are demonstrating the ability to drive themselves (Tesla, new Audi A7/A8), that would be in less demanding situations and not a scenario of all cars being self driving and drivers being free to do as they wish.

Another thing is the "Car to X" communications that is becoming more common where cars communicate with each other to share information such as accidents, traffic jams, and anything else a car could potentially sense through the sensors they have onboard. Typical scenarios:

  • A number of cars have done sudden braking in the same location, or some might even have activated auto-emergency braking, so warn other cars coming from behind of this so they can slow down before reaching this location
  • A car has activated its SOS feature or the airbags have gone off, contact the emergency services and warn other cars nearby
  • A traffic jam, warn other cars so they slow down before getting to it, or send them on a different route
  • A car encountered slippery conditions (eg ice), you can send this information to other vehicles nearby
  • Warn of emergency vehicles approaching
  • Warn about a driver going the wrong way (a really critical one)

Great idea, except there is no common standard from one manufacturer to the next. So Mercedes (Daimler-Benz) is doing this, Audi is working on it, Siemens is doing something like this, Continental is also working on it, probably others too. Whose system becomes the accepted one used by all? It's like the Betamax -v- VHS thing, only the stakes are higher.

And what do you do about older vehicles that don't support these technologies - getting rid of them under the excuse of unclean, unsafe old clunkers isn't going to work so easily. Some people won't have the financial means to upgrade, and then the question of subsidies comes along, and that could be very costly. Plus it would have undesirable effects in causing a huge slump in the market after everyone has purchased a shiny new car.
Last edited by g-boaf on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:44 pm, edited 7 times in total.

AdelaidePeter
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:25 pm

In my opinion: this is just one of many problems which hasn't been solved yet, but will eventually be solved. Driverless vehicles will happen, and will significantly reduce the road toll... but the question is when. They're nowhere near ready yet.

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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby find_bruce » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:35 pm

I don’t see how that can be effective - indicators don’t work on most BMWs

g-boaf
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby g-boaf » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:43 pm

find_bruce wrote:I don’t see how that can be effective - indicators don’t work on most BMWs


They dont work on the majority of cars because the person behind the wheel doesn't use them...

fat and old
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby fat and old » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:01 pm

g-boaf wrote: lots of common sense.....


Cool. Confirmed my suspicions. OK, how about this.

Hit a cycle, go to gaol. :D

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No !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !!.

RobertL
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby RobertL » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:33 pm

find_bruce wrote:I don’t see how that can be effective - indicators don’t work on most BMWs


I believe that here in Qld either the indicators work, or the air-con, but not both. :)
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:46 pm

fat and old wrote:
g-boaf wrote: lots of common sense.....


Cool. Confirmed my suspicions. OK, how about this.

Hit a cycle, go to gaol. :D

No electrikery
No obsolete cars
No public funding
No ambiguity
No !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !!.


Or pedestrian.
Or, as seems to be the case in a lot of DCOA scenarios on the Choob. See it coming at non injury speeds, let it happen cos "Oy got roit away, maate!"!
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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gorilla monsoon
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby gorilla monsoon » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:19 am

g-boaf wrote:Great idea, except there is no common standard from one manufacturer to the next. So Mercedes (Daimler-Benz) is doing this, Audi is working on it, Siemens is doing something like this, Continental is also working on it, probably others too. Whose system becomes the accepted one used by all? It's like the Betamax -v- VHS thing, only the stakes are higher.


Not quite right. Last time I looked, all the Germans car makers (plus the electronics companies and Ford) were collectively working towards an agreed compatible international standard.
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g-boaf
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby g-boaf » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:29 am

gorilla monsoon wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Great idea, except there is no common standard from one manufacturer to the next. So Mercedes (Daimler-Benz) is doing this, Audi is working on it, Siemens is doing something like this, Continental is also working on it, probably others too. Whose system becomes the accepted one used by all? It's like the Betamax -v- VHS thing, only the stakes are higher.


Not quite right. Last time I looked, all the Germans car makers (plus the electronics companies and Ford) were collectively working towards an agreed compatible international standard.


Working yes, but not yet done. If two rival cars currently have it (and some do) - they won't talk to each other. Maybe when the standard happens they'll be able to be retrofitted?

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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby chriso_29er » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:55 pm

I drive a BMW with normal lane departure warning (just vibrates) and have driven a new 5 series in autonomous lane keeping mode. It does not 'force' you to do anything and is still a hands on system. It was easy to override the system with steering input. It will recognise your hands off and will automatically shut off the system after 15 seconds or so of hands off.

I also tested the auto emergency brake feature which would no doubt intervene if you were going to hit a cyclist from behind. Given how sensitive these systems are in my current car, I don't think it would even allow you to close pass a cyclist without triggering at least a flashing/beeping warning. They pick up things very early.
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby antigee » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:37 pm

recent news article from USA

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/23/technol ... index.html

tesla (and ok driver) rear end fire truck dealing with crash in

worth reading to end as covers some changes Tesla made following well publicised driver death last year ......more of a worry for cyclists - looks like programming (I'm old) really only looks at interaction with vehicles moving in same direction

Other manufacturers have said their systems rely on the driver to respond to stationery objects. In general, it is more difficult for a car's radar-based system to detect and respond to a stationary object than a moving one, according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.


still not sure what this means for cyclists but sadly I'm thinking road rules in countries where utility cycling is low will use the introduction of new technology as an excuse to revise decades old "cyclist are vehicles" rules in some way (or lots of ways) ditto for peds

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gorilla monsoon
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Re: Lane keeping systems & cyclists

Postby gorilla monsoon » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:33 am

g-boaf wrote:
gorilla monsoon wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Great idea, except there is no common standard from one manufacturer to the next. So Mercedes (Daimler-Benz) is doing this, Audi is working on it, Siemens is doing something like this, Continental is also working on it, probably others too. Whose system becomes the accepted one used by all? It's like the Betamax -v- VHS thing, only the stakes are higher.


Not quite right. Last time I looked, all the Germans car makers (plus the electronics companies and Ford) were collectively working towards an agreed compatible international standard.


Working yes, but not yet done. If two rival cars currently have it (and some do) - they won't talk to each other. Maybe when the standard happens they'll be able to be retrofitted?


That's just it: they are talking to each other. There are established working groups. The car makers all know how much money it will potentially cost an individual manufacturer who goes it alone with an imcompatible system.
I've talked about this with electronics engineers from the European car makers and they are all onboard with it, as are the electronics firms such as Bosch and Siemens.
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