Cyclists single-file

Scintilla
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Cyclists single-file

Postby Scintilla » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:21 pm

I noticed on the Mountain Highway descent at Sassafras a new sign (yellow advisory) saying 'cyclists ride single-file'.

Yet along the whole length of the descent of 6 kms there are only about 6 short sections (50-100 metres each) where the centre line is not a solid or double line. The road lane is NOT anywhere near wide enough to allow a bike and car to share the lane-space and there is no sealed-shoulder on the descent. So this signage is meaningless! :roll: :x

Drivers need to suck it up and follow the road law. Riders on the descent will be doing 45-50 kmh, usually do ride downhill in single-file, and mostly safe speeds in a car down this road will barely be any higher.

Better sign to be placed at the top would be 'Drivers do not overtake bicycles' :roll:

eldavo
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby eldavo » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:33 pm

Is it exclusively on the downhill section, or both directions?

If you have any photos to go with the location description, it would be interesting to see.

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Derny Driver
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:57 pm

Scintilla wrote:I noticed on the Mountain Highway descent at Sassafras a new sign (yellow advisory) saying 'cyclists ride single-file'.

That can be fixed with a 15mm socket or ratchet spanner.
If you think Im joking, Im not.

Scintilla
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Scintilla » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:09 pm

eldavo wrote:Is it exclusively on the downhill section, or both directions?

If you have any photos to go with the location description, it would be interesting to see.

It seems to be a new sign. This is the old signage from May 2017

https://goo.gl/maps/fXb263fgccp

I only saw the sign at the top; did not check at the bottom. There was much concern about a similar (white) sign at the bottom a few years ago but I beleive that it was eventually removed due to protests from riders. Moving single-file is more reasonable on the climb as a rider is travelling slower, there is more chance of hearing approaching cars, and there is (mostly) a sealed-shoulder to access.

AdelaidePeter
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:47 pm

Scintilla wrote:
eldavo wrote:Is it exclusively on the downhill section, or both directions?

If you have any photos to go with the location description, it would be interesting to see.

It seems to be a new sign. This is the old signage from May 2017

https://goo.gl/maps/fXb263fgccp

I only saw the sign at the top; did not check at the bottom. There was much concern about a similar (white) sign at the bottom a few years ago but I beleive that it was eventually removed due to protests from riders. Moving single-file is more reasonable on the climb as a rider is travelling slower, there is more chance of hearing approaching cars, and there is (mostly) a sealed-shoulder to access.


Go about 100m further on Google Maps and you'll see it. https://goo.gl/maps/ssdrsTvjubQ2

I looked at the bottom (on Google Maps) and single file on the ascent would be a reasonable request (Edit: though only a request, in the absence of a genuine bicycle lane) because the shoulder looks quite wide.

Another thought just occured to me - is it for the cyclists' own safety? If it's very fast and winding, I imagine it would be quite dangerous to descend two abreast because you'd need most of the lane. Though it'd be unusual to be giving out safety tips like that. It's all very strange.
Last edited by AdelaidePeter on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Scintilla
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Scintilla » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:00 pm

It REALLY is the obnoxious complaints of the self-entitled locals who regard the roads as their own manor, and all cyclists as interlopers. You just need to read some of the local trash-press news items and letters-to-the-editor.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/oute ... 0d4dd953cf

Image
(Bloke on the far right...... an ex-student of mine and a particularly nasty and self-entitled type)

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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:12 pm

Scintilla wrote:Riders on the descent will be doing 45-50 kmh, usually do ride downhill in single-file, and mostly safe speeds in a car down this road will barely be any higher.
:


When its at 50kph+ on a twisty downhill road it seems like a sensible bit of advice though.
I certainly wouldn't appreciate another bike sharing my lane in those circumstances, it's my lane and I will ride a racing line or reserve it as safety margin. Nobody friend or stranger has any business getting next to me in those circumstances.

Scintilla
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Scintilla » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:17 pm

Jmuzz wrote:When its at 50kph+ on a twisty downhill road it seems like a sensible bit of advice though.
I certainly wouldn't appreciate another bike sharing my lane in those circumstances, it's my lane and I will ride a racing line or reserve it as safety margin. Nobody friend or stranger has any business getting next to me in those circumstances.

Advice and good safe practices with strangers is a good thing. BUT these signs are the tools of the local haters.

Many experienced road training groups ride up into the hills. I am sure that they mostly spread out on the descent, especially in the twisty bits, but if they are expert and confident enough to ride two-abreast for the longer curves nobody should be castigating them for their own choice. As I stated, it is DEFINITELY unsafe and illegal for any cars to be pulling passing moves on this descent.

BJL
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby BJL » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:34 am

Part of the issue is that this road is a 70kph zone and like Black Spur and Reefton, some motorists use it as their own little proving ground. The speed limit on the 1/20 should be reduced to 60kph (like they did on the tourist road to Montrose) and then motorists will generally be driving slower and less likely to catch up with or be delayed by cyclists on the descent. The speed limit near the bottom also needs to be reduced to 50kph between the shops and the bus turn around point.

But what would I know?

VicMotorists and the Yarra Ranges council are about as useful as tits on a bull.

Cyclophiliac
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:54 am

Is the new sign mentioned in the OP also mentioned in the Vic road rules? If not, its legality is arguable.

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Nate
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Nate » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:57 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:Is the new sign mentioned in the OP also mentioned in the Vic road rules? If not, its legality is arguable.


Looks like a smart person here... AS 1743:2001
Vic extract for a read (just search for AS 1743:2001 & first linky)
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct= ... 4aXm7NP9I6

You cant just bust out the crayons & make it up as you go.
Write a letter & ask for proof of compliance with Australian design guidelines or have it removed as it is non-compliant.
Then ask who installed it...

Cyclophiliac
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:38 pm

Nate wrote:You cant just bust out the crayons & make it up as you go.
Write a letter & ask for proof of compliance with Australian design guidelines or have it removed as it is non-compliant.
Then ask who installed it...

I think the latter part of your last post replied to the wrong person here, perhaps direct the above comment to the OP instead of me?

AdelaidePeter
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:53 pm

Nate wrote:
Cyclophiliac wrote:Is the new sign mentioned in the OP also mentioned in the Vic road rules? If not, its legality is arguable.


Looks like a smart person here... AS 1743:2001
Vic extract for a read (just search for AS 1743:2001 & first linky)
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct= ... 4aXm7NP9I6

You cant just bust out the crayons & make it up as you go.
Write a letter & ask for proof of compliance with Australian design guidelines or have it removed as it is non-compliant.
Then ask who installed it...


I doubt VicRoads are obliged to provide proof of compliance to a person who simply asks "show me that this sign is compliant". If on the other hand you provide a reason why you believe the sign is non-compliant, you might get a better result.

But I think a more fruitful approach is to question the rule, not the sign. By my brief scanning of ARR, there is no rule saying there is any circumstance under which cyclists may not ride 2 abreast, so the sign could be argued to have no legal force. (Even when there is a bicycle lane, there isn't actually a rule about riding 2 abreast, it simply says we must ride in the bicycle lane). Since the sign is yellow, the reply might be the sign is advisory.

fat and old
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby fat and old » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:02 pm

Maybe they're copying the Italian laws?

For what it's worth, it's nothing new. The Esplanade around Mt Martha has had them for years..

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-38.280 ... 6656?hl=en

Scintilla
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Scintilla » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:03 pm

fat and old wrote:Maybe they're copying the Italian laws?

For what it's worth, it's nothing new. The Esplanade around Mt Martha has had them for years..

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-38.280 ... 6656?hl=en

A similar land of self-entitled, arrogant, bike-haters in that area :roll:

It's the outer-burbs mentality. "Roads are built for cars, ya know?"

Scintilla
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Scintilla » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:07 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:By my brief scanning of ARR, there is no rule saying there is any circumstance under which cyclists may not ride 2 abreast, so the sign could be argued to have no legal force. (Even when there is a bicycle lane, there isn't actually a rule about riding 2 abreast, it simply says we must ride in the bicycle lane). Since the sign is yellow, the reply might be the sign is advisory.

Indeed, that is what I stated in the post. It is not of any legal standing. Yet, all the local and visiting drivers WILL harass and abuse any riders who have the gall to ignore it. This all does nothing to engender reasonable road behaviours by drivers towards cyclists. It suggests in fact to drivers that:
1. It is all OK to cross double-lines on a winding narrow mountain descent to overtake *single-file* riders, or
2. It is all OK to do the close-shave to get past said riders who "must get way over to the white-line for me"

:x :x :x
Last edited by Scintilla on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

uart
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby uart » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:37 pm

ignore

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Derny Driver
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:52 pm

Scintilla wrote:Indeed, that is what I stated in the post. It is not of any legal standing. Yet, all the local and visiting drivers WILL harass and abuse any riders who have the gall to ignore it. This all does nothing to engender reasonable road behaviours by drivers towards cyclists.

Exactly. Drivers already think cyclists must ride single file everywhere. This just reinforces that.

fat and old
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby fat and old » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:16 pm

Scintilla wrote:
fat and old wrote:Maybe they're copying the Italian laws?

For what it's worth, it's nothing new. The Esplanade around Mt Martha has had them for years..

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-38.280 ... 6656?hl=en

A similar land of self-entitled, arrogant, bike-haters in that area :roll:



Where? Italy? Nah, I found the drivers to be no worse than Melbs, better in a lot of situations :lol:

Meh, just ignore it. I don’t need to be two abreast to claim the lane anyway if need be :)

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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby uart » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:31 pm

Derny Driver wrote:Exactly. Drivers already think cyclists must ride single file everywhere. This just reinforces that.

Indeed. And further to this, they also think that they should be able to overtake any cyclist at any time and in any location without even thinking. They hate cyclists riding two abreast because they think it makes them have to pay at least a tiny bit of attention and thought as to how and when to overtake them.

Scintilla
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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Scintilla » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:13 pm

Image

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Re: Cyclists single-file

Postby Thoglette » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:26 pm

uart wrote:ignore

Delete!
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