Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

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Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:04 pm

In June on Thursday 21, 2018, the Australian Bicycle Summit will be held in Sydney - the main event is the Cycling Luminaries award but generally it is an event with two tracks, one for cycling advocacy groups and one for cycling industry.

For a slight bit of confusion, it is promoted by "We Ride Australia" which is the public face of the industry organisation, the Australian Cycling Promotion Fund Foundation (ACPF), previously known as the Cycling Promotion Fund (CPF). The Cycling Promotion Fund is funded by Bicycle Industry Australia members (ie. active members of the Australian cycling industry and the primary role is advocacy and lobby work for cycling on a national level.

The event information is included below and everyday people will be able to make nominations for the Cycling Luminaries.


The interesting thing is that the New South Wales Government is listed as the event partner. Partners are certainly crucial and Government partners make a lot of sense - it strengthens the information flow and ties which should in turn benefit transport and cycling.

But the NSW Government has proven itself to be completely against bike ride - in fact they have taken a very aggressive attitude which is reflected in their policies, the type and the content of government and minister communication and even the lack of communication and transparency as well as their budget, the policing and finally the accident and death tally.

A number of councils try to pick up the pieces, some with genuine progress, some with half-hearted compromises but in general, this is really the only way that there is any infrastructure improvements in the state of NSW.

Putting plans and visions on the table is politics and is different from tangible progress within the current term of Government. When the next government or minister is in office, the great plans are forgotten or compromised. The sincerity and trust follows the action that politicians and the government is undertaking now.

So while I still think that the NSW Government should be involved and needs to get bike riding on their agenda - the green washing with the 2056 vision are not cause for celebration or even recognition. But hopefully this event is a catalyst for the NSW government to start acting on a better transport strategy that is attractive, safer, healthy, cheaper, greener and forward compatible.

We need to see the NSW Government:
- spend more that 0.5% of their budget on (combined) pedestrian and cycling infrastructure
- document how the budget is being spent rather than hiding it from tax-payers
- focus on bike riding for transport and making it safe and viable to cycle
- introduce balanced transport - for example better public transport reduces congestion
- switch the policing priorities to protect safety rather than on 'silly' revenue raisers
- and much more... just take a cue from leading European nations.

No more plans and visions, so many countries lead the way and show what works so it is action that counts.


That's enough of my commentary, here are further details.



We Ride Australia is delighted to announce Transport for NSW as Principal Partner for the 2018 Australian Bicycle Summit to be held on 21st June and Cycling Luminaries Awards to be announced in a Gala Dinner on Wednesday 20th June.

We Ride Australia’s Director – National Advocacy, Stephen Hodge, said “the Summit unites government leaders, Australian cycling organisations and industry in this unique annual forum.

“This year the Summit theme of ‘connecting people and places’ recognises the importance of the NSW Premier’s State Infrastructure Strategy and Transport for NSW’s Future Transport 2056, a strategy that will guide investment in transport cycling for the next 40 years.

“The Summit is an important forum that recognises cycling’s contribution to the transport passenger task, the health of our citizens and the quality of our neighbourhoods,

“One of the main attractions will again be the national Cycling Luminaries Awards that will be announced at a Gala Dinner on June 20th,” Hodge said.

A Transport for NSW Spokesperson said, “We are delighted to be a Principal Partner of this event as we plan for better active transport infrastructure into the coming decades.

“The provision of safe and connected bicycle networks within ten kilometres of the Harbour CBD and emerging cities is a key deliverable of the Draft Greater Sydney Services and Infrastructure Plan which emphasises the importance of active transport in achieving the 30 Minute City vision for Greater Sydney.”

Government leaders join national and international guest speakers and Australian bicycle organisations in the annual Summit, with further announcements to be made on international and key note speakers, venue and program.

Summit key facts:

2018 Australian Bicycle Summit will be held at Lendlease Barangaroo on Thursday, 21st June.
14th Cycling Luminaries Awards will be announced at a Gala Awards Dinner at Lendlease Barangaroo on Wednesday, 20th June. Nominations open soon with updated information as it is announced at www.weride.org.au.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby find_bruce » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:15 pm

The cynic in me wonders whether the NSW government will require a non-disclosure agreement like they did last time

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:53 pm

And which other favourite personalities get invited and which cycling entities put out press releases with endorsements of government actions that target bike riders such as increase in fines.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby g-boaf » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:52 am

find_bruce wrote:The cynic in me wonders whether the NSW government will require a non-disclosure agreement like they did last time


There isn't much said about this anywhere.

I'd like to attend and do my bit to make the whole thing transparent. :twisted:

When a government department with such a hatred of bicycle riders is the major partner, the whole premise of the event is undermined and any advocacy groups going to the summit must also have their legitimacy come into question too.

When they start talking about visions dated in the 2050s, god, I'll be dead by then. How long does it take to build a network of bicycle paths, or better yet, connect the existing ones together with missing links. It doesn't take 20 years or more to do that!

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby Thoglette » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:32 am

g-boaf wrote:When they start talking about visions dated in the 2050s, god, I'll be dead by then. How long does it take to build a network of bicycle paths, or better yet, connect the existing ones together with missing links. It doesn't take 20 years or more to do that!


Or better yet, how long would it take to roll back the Duncan Gay fine increases; remove the stupid anti-dink/anti-ped provisions of the regulation; andenforce the existing close passing laws?

Adding Idaho stop provisions and removing MHLs are clearly a bridge too far
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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby g-boaf » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:46 am

Thoglette wrote:
g-boaf wrote:When they start talking about visions dated in the 2050s, god, I'll be dead by then. How long does it take to build a network of bicycle paths, or better yet, connect the existing ones together with missing links. It doesn't take 20 years or more to do that!


Or better yet, how long would it take to roll back the Duncan Gay fine increases; remove the stupid anti-dink/anti-ped provisions of the regulation; andenforce the existing close passing laws?

Adding Idaho stop provisions and removing MHLs are clearly a bridge too far


Yeah, any of those would be good. Just getting the cycling network complete will be a massive thing.

I'd be for getting a working major bicycle link completed from Western Sydney (Penrith) through Blacktown, Parramatta and into the CBD that doesn't dump people on roads. And utilise the existing links from South West Sydney to feed into it around Parramatta/Harris Park area. That would be a really major win for everyone living in those areas or along the route.

It won't be of any benefit to me as I won't need it, but it will benefit a lot of other people.

We ought to all just bombard the contact for the event with our reasoned criticisms. If they are ignored, then the organiser loses all credibility.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:55 pm

g-boaf wrote:There isn't much said about this anywhere.


It is a reference to their past behaviour where some cycling groups and anti-cycling groups were invited to a round table with Minister Duncan Gay and had to sign a NDA which the minister however didn't follow himself (uncertain whether he was technically obliged to adhere to the terms) in any case, information was shared and a number of cycling groups and community groups were excluded.

Unfortunately this approach of hiding information and non-communication is continuing.


BUT - if this partnership means that the NSW Government want to change their approach and start working in the interests of the population and become transparent - then I welcome it and hope that it becomes a good opportunity for the advocacy groups to create real connections and encourage the government to move to real change. Local councils can't do it on their own as they look to the State Government who are meant to be leading.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby g-boaf » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:52 am

AUbicycles wrote:
g-boaf wrote:There isn't much said about this anywhere.


It is a reference to their past behaviour where some cycling groups and anti-cycling groups were invited to a round table with Minister Duncan Gay and had to sign a NDA which the minister however didn't follow himself (uncertain whether he was technically obliged to adhere to the terms) in any case, information was shared and a number of cycling groups and community groups were excluded.

Unfortunately this approach of hiding information and non-communication is continuing.


BUT - if this partnership means that the NSW Government want to change their approach and start working in the interests of the population and become transparent - then I welcome it and hope that it becomes a good opportunity for the advocacy groups to create real connections and encourage the government to move to real change. Local councils can't do it on their own as they look to the State Government who are meant to be leading.



Not the NDA, but actually the entire event seems very low key, like they are in hiding.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:39 am

The summit is fairly important though it is for advocacy groups and trade so bike riders themself are not the right audience.

On the advocacy side, it is a good chance to get most of the groups in the same room, get them talking and uniting as much as possible. The CPF has essentially assumed a guiding role in this though is not formally an umbrella. This is also where the connection with the NSW government makes sense. Advocacy groups such as BicycleNSW have really tried but Sydney riders particularly would have seen the advocacy competition on this turf... and my take it for lack of passion and well guided effort, more so that the main sparing partner has not been receptive as we are seeing.

The trade event will cover things like imports duties, state of the market, thing like the duty drama that has been a nightmare and while the business are never really prepared to fully align on topics (for fear of losing business to competitor) it is the sole opportunity for all of the bicycling trade to connect.

For everyday riders and supporters of advocacy groups - generally your favourite advocacy group will represent their core principles and use it both to learn and gain input on other activity, align on key topics and potentially cooperate. The level of competition among the groups mean than some try and dominate and muscle their way so in this respect is it not very productive especially because of the turf-wars, but there tend to be more topics and agendas which the different groups actually share the same goals.


As a whole, you are not missing out and I will see if I can get a report from the organiser as I wont be attending.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby g-boaf » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:26 pm

AUbicycles wrote:The summit is fairly important though it is for advocacy groups and trade so bike riders themself are not the right audience.


Bike riders are absolutely paramount to be in these summits because advocacy groups cannot to be trusted. Normal riders who have to put up with the consequences of what these people agree to, so at least we should be able to kick up an almighty stink when needed.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby Thoglette » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:51 pm

The other topic which must be tabled is the recent road rage incident where the victim was charged with "riding recklessly" and the perp got off scott free.

Again, like 1m passing, some heads need to be banged together HARD in NSW policing.
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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:54 pm

For clarification, it is not an event specifically to connect with the government - primarily a meeting of interest groups.

Individual bike riders will be lost as it isn’t an event to put all the complaints on the table and let the governmeng solve them. There is (will be) an agenda and it would be progressive so the best approach for individuals is to let their preferred cycling body their views - essentially helping form the collective view.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby Cyclophiliac » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:35 pm

Well, if the discussion has to be left to our cycling advocates, then we're all well and truly stuffed. The so-called cycling advocates in Australia might as well be motoring advocates.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby g-boaf » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:52 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:Well, if the discussion has to be left to our cycling advocates, then we're all well and truly stuffed. The so-called cycling advocates in Australia might as well be motoring advocates.


Exactly. We might as well just give up riding bikes completely than leave our interests to that lot.

Look where it got us last time. :roll:

The solution is to get the media ready to go and then hold a noisy protest outside the conference venue, especially as the 'advocates' are arriving. Maybe they'll get the message that people like you and me don't really trust them.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:09 am

The feedback shows an absolute misunderstanding of the event.

Please, please, please take the time to understand who the organiser is, what the purpose of the event is and the history of the event (even through news coverage on BNA from the 2015 event in Canberra where trade and industry were abe to connect directly with federal MPs as part of the program. http://www.bicycles.net.au/2015/03/aust ... -advocacy/


Armed with this information and news from the previous event in Brisbane which was held in connection with the QLD bicycle week, I am certain that some would reconsider the suitability or relevance of their comments.

I have focussed on the event partner in sharing information and have my criticisms but also hope that it is an opportunity for positive change. Perhaps my introduction was misleading and shifted the understanding of the role and purpose of the event which was not my intention. But I hope that my updates can encourage people to seek further information to gain a better understanding.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby shodge » Wed May 02, 2018 7:14 pm

It is great to see the range of comments on the Summit we're organising, they reflect all the reasons we accepted a partnership with TfNSW to host it there. Clearly, we have work to do to change minds and influence people, but we are responding to some serious pockets of goodwill both within the government MPs and bureaucracy who want to improve things. So we are putting the Summit on.

Firstly, we are bringing the arguments of economic, health and social benefit to the table, major corporates are investing in cycling - so we are happy that Lendlease are hosting us in their Barangaroo headquarters. We have a highly influential champion for cycling and city transformation as our international key note speaker, Dale Bracewell, who is head of Transportation Planning in the City of Vancouver.

We are hosting the 14th annual Cycling Luminaries Awards at a Summit Dinner, taking the marvellous stories of people from across the country who are changing the game for cycling straight to Ministers, MPs and senior bureaucrats. Yes, we've been doing this for 14years, but its a long game!! Part of that is also changing the image of cycling, creating some luscious content with our film making partners, Rob and Darren. Have you see the video on our home page??

And of course, as many of you have mentioned, the Summit is the only occasion every cycling group in the country sits at the table together. It's only the 4th we have organised, but its also a vital piece of the battle to get increased investment in infrastructure and programs - we have to be seen as a united sector more if we are to be successful.

So; 1) we're going straight to the people in charge, 2) we're engaging in a professional and objective way with decision makers, 3) we're supporting those that are planning and investing in what we want and 3), we are trying to compete against a lot of bikelash and recent history to do it!

Hey, but forgetting all that - WE NEED YOU TO NOMINATE CYCLING CHAMPIONS FOR THE AWARDS!!!! Go have a look at http://www.weride.org.au
Cheers, Stephen
PS. we were a purely industry program, now with the 100% support of all our supporters, we have re-launched as an independent, charitable foundation - albeit still with huge support from industry and corporate sponsors - and hopefully you all.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 03, 2018 8:29 am

Thanks for getting involved (I suspect you've been invited to contribute here as a result of our suspicions). We are all suspicious because of the last time when some conference between advocates and government (Duncan Gay MP) occurred and we ended up with a whole heap of anti-cycling measures as a result of it.

Take a look at topics like this: viewtopic.php?f=53&p=1446749#p1446749 (Cyclists staging a "die-in" on Brisbane road.

Or the Operation Pedro campaigns in NSW (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=97988) which are supposedly aimed at improving bicycle rider safety, yet there is nothing done about enforcing the safe passing regulation, even when video evidence is supplied. There is usually a laundry list of excuses provided about why the video footage isn't acceptable or the pass wasn't unsafe because the rider wasn't hit by the car.

These are the things that a lot of us feel really strongly about. We want to know that we are going to be able to go out and ride to work and back, or wherever else and come get there alive and in one piece. I've ridden overseas in numerous cities that don't have specific bicycle infrastructure. I rode just on the roads among the local traffic and felt safe and respected the entire time. I want the drivers here to behave the same way.
Last edited by g-boaf on Thu May 03, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu May 03, 2018 8:38 am

g-boaf wrote:Thanks for getting involved (I suspect you've been invited to contribute here as a result of our suspicions). We are all suspicious because of the last time when some conference between advocates and government (Duncan Gay MP) occurred and we ended up with a whole heap of anti-cycling measures as a result of it.

Take a look at topics like this: viewtopic.php?f=53&p=1446749#p1446749 (Cyclists staging a "die-in" on Brisbane road.

Or the Operation Pedro campaigns in NSW (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=97988) which are supposedly aimed at improving bicycle rider safety, yet there is nothing done about enforcing the safe passing regulation, even when video evidence is supplied. There is usually a laundry list of excuses provided about why the video footage isn't acceptable or the pass wasn't unsafe because the rider wasn't hit by the car.

These are the things that a lot of us feel really strongly about. We want to know that we are going to be able to go out and ride to work and back, or wherever else and come get there alive and in one piece.

Agreed. I think the only thing that's going to force our state governments to pay more attention to cyclists is some very large scale Critical Mass style bicycle rides. In other words: we all ride somewhere, together and in very large numbers, following all the road rules so that nobody can criticise us.
Our so-called bicycle advocacy organisations are useless, and individual cyclists' concerns about close-passes, aggression, intimidation, etc. are ignored by the police and government, normally with the help of lame excuses. This means we have to force them to take notice of us.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 03, 2018 11:56 am

Welcome!
shodge wrote: we are bringing the arguments of economic, health and social benefit to the table


You really should be pushing health and economy: over the past decade I have come to the conclusion that the way forward is not the transport minister but rather via the health minister, aided and abetted by the finance minister. Who will need to drag the planning and police ministers along for the ride.

Why?

The transport minister is only interested in ribbon cutting announcements and (sometimes (1)) keeping the road toll down. Roads and rail are much better "value" than, well, reducing car dependency.

The poor old health minister, on the other hand, suffers both directly and indirectly from car dependency.

Directly, because car and truck drivers are orders of magnitude more likely to put themselves or someone else into hospital (and then rehab and then NDIS or similar) than a bus or train driver. Cyclists, per hour, have similar injury rates as car passengers: but 80% (or there abouts) of two-person bike "accidents" are the fault of a motorist. Exercise 1. Go run the numbers on how much of the hospital budget is tied up by motor vehicle accidents.

Indirectly: do I really need to mention obesity and fine particulate pollution costs?

All of which should be bothering the finance minister too. However the challenge is: how do we get someone to stop commuting from outer woop-woop to the CBD in their car? Just like in much of Europe ?

Typically such conversations start with plenty of energy but go no-where. Eventually someone will state "but Australia is different" and everyone will nod knowingly. And everyone goes home, confident that "they did what they could".

This is, of course, utter crap.

There are short term, medium term and long term actions available, all of which are well known.
Short term:
1. Stop wasting money trying to "fix the roads" (2) This immediately frees up cash for the other short term items.
2. Create alternatives to driving. Run the busses and trains 24/7, to capacity. Add bus lanes. Stop pretending that public transport shouldn't make a loss. Enforce the existing bus lanes.
3. Fix bad driving. Education and enforcement. Have all police officers spend 6 months on a bicycle, part in "plain clothes"(3)
4. Remove anti-walking and anti-cycling road regulations (that is, about 80% of all regulations relating to these modes of transport)(4)
5. Where there's some low hanging fruit, improve bike and pedestrian infrastructure (with paint, road/lane closures and changes to traffic light timing)
6. Adjust public transport rules and routes to allow for "general use" not just commuting (e.g. getting the dog to the vet, getting to the shops)
7. Remove (ban) trucks with trailers (except single semis) from all urban centres. (8)

If you can successfully sue some of the ant-bike shock jocks, all the better.

Medium term:
1. Remove stand-alone "road" departments. Split up the old services and fire the rusted-on pro-road bureaucrats.
2. Expose and remove the costs associated with "free" parking. Remove requirements for parking allocations in new buildings.
3. Reduce road speeds (3). Update the Australian design guidelines for roads to support 30kph suburbs and drop speed limits rather than "improving" roads. Likewise, ensure the ADRs for high speed roads (e.g. dual carriageways) include separated cycle and pedestrian infrastructure.
4. Ensure that all high speed roads actually have effective separated cycle and pedestrian infrastructure.
5. Give busses priority at traffic lights. There's several ways this can happen. Add (effective) bike lockers at major bus locations (e.g. Bondi) and all train stations. (5)
6. Where ever a dual carriageway "clogs up" daily, add either a dedicated bus lane. E.g. Bondi road.
7. Buy more busses and trains. Ensure that they are suitable for general use. Employ drivers and support staff.
8. Add bicycle education to school curriculums; re-arrange school traffic circulation to encourage cycling and walking by students & parents.
9. Get heavy trucks off the roads as far as practicable. This means supporting freight rail and restricting (e.g. by permit only off designated routes) the use of trailer trucks. Ensure those trucks (regardless of size) allowed in urban areas have adequate levels of visibility from the cabin; side guards etc. (7) Bad HGVs from most roads during "rush hour".
.
Have you dealt with the economics which supports shock jocks yet?

Long term (just one or two directly related items)
1. Plan your development. Ensure that everyone is within a 1km ride of a train station; (pre)school or local shopping precinct.
2. Convert your bus lanes into light rail.
3. Support the repurposing of existing car parking structure to more useful activities.
4. Re-examine the definitions of "car" and support measures to reduce use of tall, wide and heavy vehicles for commuting. Allow the the road rules to restrict the support for "oversize" cars (e.g car bay sizes and lane widths) and trucks (e.g. access requiring partial road closures). (6)
5. Ensure that light rail has a role in freight distribution. (7)
6. Continue to push the case that road transport is a subset of transport which is a subset of planning.


(1) The road toll, per capita, has gone the wrong way for the past few years. But no one cares: rather we are reducing enforcement and promoting a culture of non compliance (see QLD Police force comments on speed cameras, Duncan Gay's removal of speed cameras etc.)

(2) my analysis of 2015 WA MRD spend of $2B on "fixing" roads showed perhaps less than 1/4 was actually spent on what my accountant would consider to be "maintenance". At least 3/4 was new roads or "improvements" to existing roads. I'd be shocked if this pattern is not repeated across Australia.

(3) The number one and two reason that people don't ride is that the road environment is not safe and/or that car drivers are dangerous. (See Heart Foundation survey 2011 for example)

(4) Most states do not police MHLs, anti-dink laws or J-walking offences. The approach that is taken in NSW is the butt of jokes worldwide. MHLs don't work and are a real barrier to short-distance cycling.

(5) In Holland it is common for people to use a bike at either end of their train trip as part of their commute. Bike #2 is either a hire bike or kept at the train station - Utrecht Central has over 10,000 bike parking spots.

(6) Large vehicles worsen congestion and designing roads and suburbs for the largest of vehicles results in inefficient land use. The Japanese tradition of "Kei" cars and trucks shows what can be done to drive long term purchasing decisions.

(7) London is discovering that the penultimate nine miles is a challenge for freight delivery. They have a real problem with the sort of trucks which deliver over these distances as they tend to have very poor visibility of pedestrians; cyclists and road furniture. Plus deal poorly with narrow & tight roads.

(8) Any attempt to restrict dangerous transport vehicles is met by volumes of hogwash about unfairness and costs. Don't fall for it. Any costs will affect all players equally and, if passed on, will result in better economic outcomes.
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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 03, 2018 12:37 pm

Thoglette wrote:3. Reduce road speeds (3). Update the Australian design guidelines for roads to support 30kph suburbs and drop speed limits rather than "improving" roads. Likewise, ensure the ADRs for high speed roads (e.g. dual carriageways) include separated cycle and pedestrian infrastructure.


That's nice, except for people (even commuting/transport bike riders) who ride at 40km/h or more. Where would we go then without having people aiming speed cameras at us.

Overseas there were roads I rode (particularly Brennerstraße which had no cycling infrastructure) that had speed limits higher than 30km/h and there were no problems with the car drivers. The drivers in cars, trucks, tour buses, etc were all cautious and careful. There were sections where I had a rock wall on my right, and the truck or bus passing me on the left, leaving me enough room and passing safely, or indeed waiting for a safe time to pass.

That's what we really need to change, the driver behaviour.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby Scott_C » Thu May 03, 2018 1:40 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Thoglette wrote:3. Reduce road speeds (3). Update the Australian design guidelines for roads to support 30kph suburbs and drop speed limits rather than "improving" roads. Likewise, ensure the ADRs for high speed roads (e.g. dual carriageways) include separated cycle and pedestrian infrastructure.


That's nice, except for people (even commuting/transport bike riders) who ride at 40km/h or more. Where would we go then without having people aiming speed cameras at us.


It isn't a call for blanket 30kph speed limits, just as when the default "built-up area" limit went from 60kph to 50kph minor arterial roads remained posted at 60kph similar would happen in this scenario where designated through roads would remain at 40 or 50 kph but the residential only roads would be lowered to 30kph. Confident cyclists who can maintain speed with traffic can then commute primarily on the through roads whereas minor roads will be safer for lower speed cyclists and pedestrians without the need for cyclist and pedestrian endangering traffic management treatments.

For example, there is a hospital and medical campus on my road that covers both sides of the road and therefore has people with limited functionality frequently crossing the road. It has traffic calming that encourages a 20 to 30kph vehicle speed despite being a posted 50kph limit. In a scenario where 30kph limits can be posted they could remove or minimise the cyclist endangering swerve point traffic calming and still expect traffic to travel at their desired speeds. It might even stop the group of motorcycle enthusiasts who like to use the traffic calming as a technical trial from rapidly accelerating down the street at night.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu May 03, 2018 1:41 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Thoglette wrote:3. Reduce road speeds (3). Update the Australian design guidelines for roads to support 30kph suburbs and drop speed limits rather than "improving" roads. Likewise, ensure the ADRs for high speed roads (e.g. dual carriageways) include separated cycle and pedestrian infrastructure.


That's nice, except for people (even commuting/transport bike riders) who ride at 40km/h or more. Where would we go then without having people aiming speed cameras at us.


A higher speed limit road, or a track. People shouldn't be riding over the speed limit on a suburban street.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 03, 2018 2:01 pm

g-boaf wrote:That's what we really need to change, the driver behaviour.

Agreed.
This requires removing the car-on-a-highway from its current hallowed position as The One True Form of transport. This has practical; economic/political and cultural elements.

Practical: public transport is so bad in this country that most tradies and factory/warehouse workers can't use it. (In Sweden I shared my commute with all the tradies working on a local building site)

Economic/politic: as noted previously as a body politic we fail to consider transport as a whole system and certainly fail to account for it. As individuals, non-private-MV transport is uneconomic (Pay for a taxi or spend an extra hour or two on the bus? The road and parking is "free" and the rego's paid for)

Cultural. Well, while the bright young things might be getting their licences later without embaressment, an almost nihlistic driving culture (most strongly observed in NSW) still exists. "The cars that ate Paris" still resonates; contemporary art continues to reflect on it (e.g. Shaun Gladwell) and the schlockjocks still feed it.

As you said, in northern European countries there's no "teaching of lessons"*, not even on the main roads signposted at higher speeds.

(Thanks to ScottC for clarifying my point on 30kph)

*True to stereotype, I did find that the Germans will let you know very quickly if you are doing the wrong thing. But that was true across all areas, not just road use.
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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby g-boaf » Thu May 03, 2018 2:31 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
Thoglette wrote:3. Reduce road speeds (3). Update the Australian design guidelines for roads to support 30kph suburbs and drop speed limits rather than "improving" roads. Likewise, ensure the ADRs for high speed roads (e.g. dual carriageways) include separated cycle and pedestrian infrastructure.


That's nice, except for people (even commuting/transport bike riders) who ride at 40km/h or more. Where would we go then without having people aiming speed cameras at us.


A higher speed limit road, or a track. People shouldn't be riding over the speed limit on a suburban street.


Perfect. I'll go and drive to those areas then. More cars on the road, counter to what you wanted.

Unlike a lot of other riders, I ride to the start of the rides I want to do, and I do ride near the speed limits on quite a number of the suburban roads I use. The issue isn't speed of the road, it's the way the drivers overtake you. If they give you enough room or wait behind you patiently, then you don't need to worry. That is what we really need, not much lower speed limits.

Maybe 70km/h roads in suburban areas should be 50km/h, but I don't see the need for much lower than that if people drive with care.

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Re: Australian Bicycle Summit with NSW Gov as partner

Postby BobtheBuilder » Thu May 03, 2018 2:44 pm

g-boaf wrote:Exactly. We might as well just give up riding bikes completely than leave our interests to that lot.

Look where it got us last time. :roll:


As a neophyte to current bike politics, could someone provide (or point to) a primer? Who is "that lot" and what happened "last time"? What are the major factions in cycling?

Finding these discussions very interesting, but not knowing the context a bit hard to follow at times!

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