Accident advice regarding a roundabout
-
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:12 pm
Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 4:45 pm
Looking for some advice on my current situation.
Basically I have been in an accident with a car at a roundabout.
Before the roundabout there is a rather steep hill, so you can pick up a lot of speed (around 50km/h) before entering this roundabout on Edgewater Blvd in Maribrynong.
I normally tether the brakes, look right and if its clear on my right I will cycle through as its quite a small roundabout.
Unfortunately , as I've entered the roundabout I have T-boned a car on its right side.
Now, I don't actually remember a whole lot of the event as I took a really hard knock to the head.
I don't remember the ambulance ride or the police being there or contacting my missus to go pick up the bike, but it all happened.
I'm glad my helmet did its job and certain it saved my life considering the damage done to it.
The brunt of the impact was absorbed by the left side of my handlebars as its now folded in towards the centre, its carried over to the fork which has bent snapped. My lower left back also copped it as that was pretty sore when I did start to remember things.
To my surprise whilst recovering I received an infringement notice, code "2015, RR 114", failing to give way at a roundabout for $277 & 3 demerit points.
Looking at the Vicroads fines and penalties sheet it seems they have given me a fine based on me being a driver of a car.
If I was fault, it seems the correct code would be "2226, RR 114" for $159 and no demerit points. Is that right?
The other thing being, how can I fail to give way at a roundabout if I am already in it?
I had always assumed at a roundabout you give way to your right.
My assumption of the event is the driver of the car has not looked/seen me on their right and gone through the roundabout, as I have entered.
I have requested for the accident report and spoken to Shine lawyers who couldn't really help me in regards to the infringement notice.
Has anyone ever been in the same sort of situation or can provide some knowledge on the matter?
Thanking you in advance,
Cheers,
Charles
- RonK
- Posts: 11508
- Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
- Location: If you need to know, ask me
- Contact:
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby RonK » Mon May 14, 2018 5:56 pm
- Tim
- Posts: 2948
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:02 pm
- Location: Gippsland Lakes
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Tim » Mon May 14, 2018 6:26 pm
No, you give way to any vehicle already on the roundabout.Backdoorboss wrote:I had always assumed at a roundabout you give way to your right.
Sorry 'bout the crash, and fine.
Mend well.
-
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:57 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Trevtassie » Mon May 14, 2018 6:41 pm
Vehicles entering the roundabout have to give way to vehicles already in the roundabout, this is you, on your bike, since you were already in the roundabout. The only way you should be pinged is if you ran up the rear of the car already in the roundabout, otherwise why have a roundabout, you could just drive right on in and not give a stuff as long as there is room to stuff your vehicle into the roundabout just before you got hit!
-
- Posts: 1027
- Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:37 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby zebee » Mon May 14, 2018 7:23 pm
You'd have to look at relative speeds and distances travelled.
How many metres per second were you doing, how long did it take from the time your front wheel crossed into the roundabout to when you hit the car.
That is the hard part if you don't have anything reliably recording speed. He won't either of course....
FInd a maths geek and get them to work out what ranges of speeds each had to be doing for the crash to happen how it did, and what that says about who entered the roundabout first.
-
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:57 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Trevtassie » Mon May 14, 2018 7:31 pm
This is why photos of the impact damage would be good. Pretty well anywhere from the back door forward I'd say you have a fair chance of saying you were there first... and the further forward the better.zebee wrote:THe problem is.... who entered the roundabout first?
You'd have to look at relative speeds and distances travelled.
How many metres per second were you doing, how long did it take from the time your front wheel crossed into the roundabout to when you hit the car.
That is the hard part if you don't have anything reliably recording speed. He won't either of course....
FInd a maths geek and get them to work out what ranges of speeds each had to be doing for the crash to happen how it did, and what that says about who entered the roundabout first.
-
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:12 pm
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 7:40 pm
Hi Ronk,RonK wrote:Trying hard to visualise how you hit a car you didn't see on the right side when you entered the roundabout from the left.
I was going straight at a roundabout.
The car would have been to my left.
I have hit the car on their right side.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Charles.
- queequeg
- Posts: 6485
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby queequeg » Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 pm
If that is in fact the case, then it was the other vehicle that has failed to give way to traffic already in the roundabout.
However, without any evidence or footage, it might be hard proving that. Where was the damage on the car? Where and when did they enter the roundabout?
Also, they definitely issued you the wrong infringement. That might in fact be enough to render it invalid, or they may just reissue it with the correct offence code. Either way, since you carted off to hospital and were presumably not asked for your version of events, I am surprised you received a ticket.
-
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:12 pm
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 pm
Hi Trevtassie,Trevtassie wrote:Any chance of getting pictures of the damage to the car to see xactly where you hit it?
I'm hoping the report I requested from the ARO (accident report office) provides me that.
Otherwise I'm gonna have to go for a walk about and take a photo myself.
Cheers,
Charles
-
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:12 pm
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 7:50 pm
Hi Zeebee,zebee wrote:THe problem is.... who entered the roundabout first?
You'd have to look at relative speeds and distances travelled.
How many metres per second were you doing, how long did it take from the time your front wheel crossed into the roundabout to when you hit the car.
That is the hard part if you don't have anything reliably recording speed. He won't either of course....
FInd a maths geek and get them to work out what ranges of speeds each had to be doing for the crash to happen how it did, and what that says about who entered the roundabout first.
I do have it on Strava, but that can sometimes be unreliable at recording your speed accurately as you say.
Is the onus on me to prove that I was in the roundabout first?
I was under the impression that they would need to prove I wasn't to issue the fine.
Cheers,
Charles
-
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:21 am
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
- Contact:
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby eldavo » Mon May 14, 2018 8:00 pm
With the speed and small size of you/your bicycle, for the small amount of time people glance looking for larger objects that pose a hazard to them, the driver has failed to give way to traffic on the roundabout, that is the universal premise of the roundabout in layman's terms.
Two thumbs up for good representation seeing you right through this without infringement nor traffic fault IMO. Sadly you always lose with personal injury compared to cages. Best of luck in physical and legal recovery.
Fine's are relatively effortless to issue and the QA level isn't perfect, they are a shortcut of court costs and shortcut of justice e.g. did they investigate and get both sides of the story. Probably not if you're injured and not coherent getting medical attention. So you need to rebuke the fine in court. I hope your rego was up to date, I don't know how they'd identify you otherwise
-
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:12 pm
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 8:09 pm
Hi Queequeg,queequeg wrote:However, without any evidence or footage, it might be hard proving that. Where was the damage on the car? Where and when did they enter the roundabout?
Also, they definitely issued you the wrong infringement. That might in fact be enough to render it invalid, or they may just reissue it with the correct offence code. Either way, since you carted off to hospital and were presumably not asked for your version of events, I am surprised you received a ticket.
Yeah this was actually the most frustrating part about the event, not being able to remember exactly what happened.
I have taken that roundabout over a hundred times commuting to work and was astonished I saw the infringement notice.
Here is a picture:
I'm hoping the report will clear things up for me.
-
- Posts: 1232
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:13 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon May 14, 2018 8:12 pm
From his description, and the photo in the post above, it sounds like the car was barely in the roundabout (maybe 1-2 metres in), while the cyclist was 3-4 metres in (maybe less on a very small roundabout). Otherwise, I don't see how he could have slammed into the right hand side of the car.zebee wrote:THe problem is.... who entered the roundabout first?
You'd have to look at relative speeds and distances travelled.
How many metres per second were you doing, how long did it take from the time your front wheel crossed into the roundabout to when you hit the car.
That is the hard part if you don't have anything reliably recording speed. He won't either of course....
FInd a maths geek and get them to work out what ranges of speeds each had to be doing for the crash to happen how it did, and what that says about who entered the roundabout first.
So it sure sounds to me like the car driver was at fault.
- uart
- Posts: 3214
- Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
- Location: Newcastle
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 8:25 pm
Yeah it definitely looks like they charged you with the wrong offense. Based on that you can challenge it in court and you will win. It might be a hollow victory however as I believe that they can just re-issue you with the correct "ticket" after the court appearance. You might be better off to just inquire with the police if they can issue the correct fine straight up.Backdoorboss wrote: To my surprise whilst recovering I received an infringement notice, code "2015, RR 114", failing to give way at a roundabout for $277 & 3 demerit points.
Looking at the Vicroads fines and penalties sheet it seems they have given me a fine based on me being a driver of a car.
If I was fault, it seems the correct code would be "2226, RR 114" for $159 and no demerit points. Is that right?
Re the original incident. No you cannot just barge into a roundabout at any speed while disregarding any traffic already in there. That's one of the dangerous things that cars often try to do to us (cyclists). You have to give way to any vehicle that is already in the roundabout.
Looking on street view, I assume that you were heading eastward down Edgewater Blvd, and that the car came from the left on Magazine Way. If that car entered the roundabout before you did, then yeah, you were supposed to give way.
https://www.google.com/maps/(AT)-37.785271 ... 312!8i6656
- bychosis
- Posts: 7272
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm
- Location: Lake Macquarie
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby bychosis » Mon May 14, 2018 8:39 pm
-
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:12 pm
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby Backdoorboss » Mon May 14, 2018 8:42 pm
Yes, that's correct heading eastward on Edgewater and car came from the left on Magazine way.uart wrote:Backdoorboss wrote: Re the original incident. No you cannot just barge into a roundabout at any speed while disregarding any traffic already in there. That's one of the dangerous things that cars often try to do to us (cyclists). You have to give way to any vehicle that is already in the roundabout.
Looking on street view, I assume that you were heading eastward down Edgewater Blvd, and that the car came from the left on Magazine Way. If that car entered the roundabout before you did, then yeah, you were supposed to give way.
https://www.google.com/maps/(AT)-37.785271 ... 312!8i6656
So then its a race to see who can get into the roundabout first?
What if we entered the roundabout at the same time?
Hence why I thought give way to your right applied.
Again, I cant recall the actual crash happening so i'm going to have rely on the report.
Cheers,
Charles
-
- Posts: 9810
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby human909 » Mon May 14, 2018 8:53 pm
Did they take a statement from you after you left hospital? If not this alone shows a complete failure in their investigation and subsequent issuement of a traffic infringement. If they haven't even spoken to you in a fit state then they have clearly half-assed things. Lets not forget that they can't tell the difference between a bicycle and a motor vehicle.
In my experience people stick to their guns once they have made a decision. Police are people and giving them a chance to weasle things to suit their decision is not in your best interest when their infringement notice is flawed from the outset.
Rely on the report and the evidence you can gather. But if the police have not interviewed you since you leaving the hospital then how they can finish a traffic incident report is beyond me and I would hope any judge would agree.Backdoorboss wrote:Again, I cant recall the actual crash happening so i'm going to have rely on the report.
- RonK
- Posts: 11508
- Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
- Location: If you need to know, ask me
- Contact:
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby RonK » Mon May 14, 2018 9:08 pm
Yeah, I eventually worked it out. I can only conclude that the driver if the car failed to give way to you.Backdoorboss wrote:Hi Ronk,RonK wrote:Trying hard to visualise how you hit a car you didn't see on the right side when you entered the roundabout from the left.
I was going straight at a roundabout.
The car would have been to my left.
I have hit the car on their right side.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Charles.
- uart
- Posts: 3214
- Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
- Location: Newcastle
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 9:25 pm
No that is not the only conclusion. If the OP was travelling at about 50km/hr as claimed and the car was going 10 to 15 km/hr then it's entirely possible that the car entered the roundabout first.RonK wrote:I can only conclude that the driver if (of) the car failed to give way to you.
I've seen this exact same situation (but with the boot on the other foot) in security camera vision of a car mowing down a cyclist in a small roundabout. Cyclist enters a roundabout from the left at fairly slow speed. Car comes straight through roundabout at high speed (after the cyclist has already entered) and takes cyclist out.
- uart
- Posts: 3214
- Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
- Location: Newcastle
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 9:31 pm
One other point Charles. If the police have decided that you are at fault then that $159 will be the least of your problems (well financially anyway). You should definitely expect at some time in the future to receive a bill from the driver's insurance company for considerably more money than this - possibly thousands.Backdoorboss wrote: If I was fault, it seems the correct code would be "2226, RR 114" for $159 and no demerit points. Is that right?
-
- Posts: 9810
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby human909 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:00 pm
Very true. All the more reason why he should challenge the fine in court.uart wrote:One other point Charles. If the police have decided that you are at fault then that $159 will be the least of your problems (well financially anyway). You should definitely expect at some time in the future to receive a bill from the driver's insurance company for considerably more money than this - possibly thousands.Backdoorboss wrote: If I was fault, it seems the correct code would be "2226, RR 114" for $159 and no demerit points. Is that right?
Ultimate legal 'fault' is decided through the courts. The police infringement notice is just that. You can choose to contest it and unless you are found guilty of the offense then you are not guilty of the offence.
Meanwhile I'd be hitting up the driver's insurance company for compensation for damages.
- queequeg
- Posts: 6485
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby queequeg » Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 pm
Yep, what I would do is gather all the evidence and reports you can find. Get photos of the damage to the car if you can to show where you hit, whether or nor there were witnesses (other than the driver), and challenge the infringement in court.Backdoorboss wrote:Hi Queequeg,queequeg wrote:However, without any evidence or footage, it might be hard proving that. Where was the damage on the car? Where and when did they enter the roundabout?
Also, they definitely issued you the wrong infringement. That might in fact be enough to render it invalid, or they may just reissue it with the correct offence code. Either way, since you carted off to hospital and were presumably not asked for your version of events, I am surprised you received a ticket.
Yeah this was actually the most frustrating part about the event, not being able to remember exactly what happened.
I have taken that roundabout over a hundred times commuting to work and was astonished I saw the infringement notice.
Here is a picture:
I'm hoping the report will clear things up for me.
That the police did not speak to you, then got the infringement code wrong. In order to issue the infringement, they would have to have proof of who entered the roundabout first. It's usually pretty difficult for a driver to claim they were in the roundabout first if they have been t-boned on the driver side door, but the problem with tiny roundabouts that have terrible sightlines is that this is exactly what can happen when vehicles drive too quickly for the conditions.
It may well be that both yourself and the driver are equally at fault, which could put enough doubt into it that a magistrate may well drop the infringement.
- uart
- Posts: 3214
- Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
- Location: Newcastle
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby uart » Mon May 14, 2018 11:05 pm
- queequeg
- Posts: 6485
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby queequeg » Mon May 14, 2018 11:24 pm
Possibly, which is why it's worth asking the question as to what evidence they have. If there was a dashcam, it must have a pretty good field of view to capture a t-bone though. My gut feeling is that in this instance, both are at fault. The downhill run looked pretty steep, and the view the driver had back up the hill would really necessitate an almost complete stop to check there was no traffic coming down what appears to the main thoroughfare (despite the fact it's a roundabout), due to the overall width of the through road and it's wide median strip.uart wrote:Perhaps the driver had a dash cam, and that's how the police decided fault without interviewing Charles? If so then it is going to be hard to contend.
-
- Posts: 1545
- Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:05 pm
- Location: West Gippy
Re: Accident advice regarding a roundabout
Postby macca33 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:02 am
Secondly and perhaps a tad critical, why would you think carrying that sort of speed into that intersection would ever be safe and prudent? You may have been in the right here - despite the issue of a ticket against you (I'll leave that for you to determine your best way forward), but that aerial shot of the intersection (and my subsequent look on GoogleMaps) seems to show poor sight distances in a heavily built-up area - I'd certainly be exercising more care - for my own sake...
Lastly, perhaps check the residents for CCTV - you may get lucky and find some.
cheers
Return to “Cycling Safety and Advocacy”
- General Australian Cycling Topics
- Info / announcements
- Buying a bike / parts
- General Cycling Discussion
- The Bike Shed
- Cycling Health
- Cycling Safety and Advocacy
- Women's Cycling
- Bike & Gear Reviews
- Cycling Trade
- Stolen Bikes
- Bicycle FAQs
- The Market Place
- Member to Member Bike and Gear Sales
- Want to Buy, Group Buy, Swap
- My Bikes or Gear Elsewhere
- Serious Biking
- Audax / Randonneuring
- Retro biking
- Commuting
- MTB
- Recumbents
- Fixed Gear/ Single Speed
- Track
- Electric Bicycles
- Cyclocross and Gravel Grinding
- Dragsters / Lowriders / Cruisers
- Children's Bikes
- Cargo Bikes and Utility Cycling
- Road Racing
- Road Biking
- Training
- Time Trial
- Triathlon
- International and National Tours and Events
- Cycle Touring
- Touring Australia
- Touring Overseas
- Touring Bikes and Equipment
- Australia
- Western Australia
- New South Wales
- Queensland
- South Australia
- Victoria
- ACT
- Tasmania
- Northern Territory
- Country & Regional
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users
- All times are UTC+10:00
- Top
- Delete cookies
About the Australian Cycling Forums
The Australian Cycling Forums is a welcoming community where you can ask questions and talk about the type of bikes and cycling topics you like.
Bicycles Network Australia
Forum Information
Connect with BNA
This website uses affiliate links to retail platforms including ebay, amazon, proviz and ribble.