Hit by an uninsured driver

B76
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Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby B76 » Tue May 22, 2018 11:22 pm

Well my first post was going to be about mudgaurds.

Unfortunately on my recent commute home I was T-boned by an elderly driver (pensioner) whom failed to give way at a T-junction. SIDSY. :roll: Thankfully I had a helmet cam and the impact only resulted in a few bruises and soreness which I have mitigated with physio and exercise, however my pride and joy (Trek Domane 5.2 is a write off)

To make matters worse the driver is uninsured. I obtained several quotes and it is uneconomical to repair as the costs would be higher than the second hand value of my bike (roughly $2,500). That value is based on the very few similar bikes I can find online plus my upgrades (also destroyed)

The driver was surprised at the value of a carbon road bike and has suggested the only way she could compensate me is through a payment plan. Does anyone have any experience with this?

I am gutted that my bike has been destroyed and there is no way I can replace it, even at second hand value so I will need to find a similar new bike, which will cost me AT least another $1000 if I am lucky. I have asked her if she can borrow from a relative or her bank but I am not holding my breath. Any advice appreciated. I am trying to avoid lawyers for both our sakes.

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familyguy
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby familyguy » Wed May 23, 2018 9:11 am

Uninsured in terms of not having third party property or comprehensive insurance?

You said your 'upgrades' were destroyed? Wheels? What can you salvage from the bike at this point in time? Is it economical to use any of the parts or are you pushing for total replacement of the lot?

Not making light of your issue, but it makes the old "pay rego ya *****s!" line a moot point if paying rego still means you're uninsured, doesn't it?!

Jim

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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby human909 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:40 am

It sounds like she is engaging in the discussion then great. Consider yourself lucky in that respect. (Though the crash still hurts physically and financially.)

B76 wrote: I am trying to avoid lawyers for both our sakes.

Yep, good idea.

Lawyers just eat up money and aren't really worth it for the (relatively) small amount being talked about. (The most you'd ever want to do is just get a formal legal letter of demand. Not that is worth any more than you own written one but it is more scary when it comes from a lawyer.)

[quote="B76"]The driver was surprised at the value of a carbon road bike and has suggested the only way she could compensate me is through a payment plan. Does anyone have any experience with this?
Without getting courts involved, your compensation, how much and how it is paid is complete open to negotiation from both parties. If she doesn't have that kind of money then a payment plan is a reasonable suggestion.

If you believe that she is going to stick to a payment plan then getting the compensation coming is far better than nothing. Push for a shorter time frame of payments and if you are willing offer he a reduction if she can find a way to pay it all immediately. Better for yourself to put it behind you.

B76
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby B76 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:51 am

Yes, phoned the Insurance Commission WA and the CTP is only for medical issues and related compo. Does not cover property. The driver did not have any additional insurance such as Fire/Theft/Third party property.

I am thankful we are able to move forward amicably but am concerned about how a payment plan is undertaken, and enforced (hopefully never come to that) Has anyone seen a standard form?

I can salvage my accessories except the wheels, I am assuming the saddle and bars should be ok as they did not suffer impact damage from what I can see. Not sure about lateral forces on the seat however as the seat left a massive bruise on my inner thigh. It has carbon rails.

Jmuzz
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby Jmuzz » Wed May 23, 2018 11:37 am

You don't really have much option besides payment plan, since that is exactly what the court will allocate anyway.
A pensioner won't be forced to sell assets to pay.

Taking it to court will formalize it and put you in a stronger position to claim from estate if she dies in future. And will also provide some check on whether she has cash in the bank and is lying, but it sounds like she is nice and honest.

It's a small claims issue and shouldn't need any lawyers involved. All you would be after in court is a formal order to meet a payment plan. But it's not much more than a written contract that she agrees to pay.

Part of the reason for comprehensive insurance is to protect yourself from these at fault party can't/wont pay situations.

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bychosis
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby bychosis » Wed May 23, 2018 12:10 pm

Do you have any household insurance you can claim on?
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eldavo
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby eldavo » Wed May 23, 2018 12:25 pm

This is one example why I have the CGU home and contents with the accidental loss/damage of valuables (after finding the Cyclecover brokered version only had racing event benefits, but inconvenient and clumsy to work with for every other aspect).
Unspecified bicycle cover to some limit standard. I've added to it to about the level of a comprehensive motor vehicle policy cost, including a line item carbon and titanium bicycles value that I can substantiate with original sale/receipt values or RRP's of models as a high starting point before used/depreciated factors. I don't own/maintain a personal motor vehicle since wife has the car/family wagon, but I still want the low risk carefree bicycle riding experience to be relatively carefree in events like this.
Last edited by eldavo on Wed May 23, 2018 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Comedian
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby Comedian » Wed May 23, 2018 12:39 pm

I'd be really cautious of any kind of payment plan..

Maybe it would be OK, but what if it isn't. The last thing you need is to be a debt collector.

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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby uart » Wed May 23, 2018 1:04 pm

Comedian wrote:I'd be really cautious of any kind of payment plan..

Maybe it would be OK, but what if it isn't. The last thing you need is to be a debt collector.

Yeah, it sounds like it could get awkward.

I think it's so irresponsible of people to have no insurance like that! Now I don't always insure my cars comprehensively, but I'd never be without 3rd party property damage at a minimum. It's not a lot of money either, I think I only pay about $150 pa from memory. And if you can't afford that then there's no way you are going to be able to afford to pay for the damage you cause in an accident.

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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby eldavo » Wed May 23, 2018 2:07 pm

uart wrote:
Comedian wrote:I think I only pay about $150 pa from memory. And if you can't afford that then there's no way you are going to be able to afford to pay for the damage you cause in an accident.

True, and given the cost of registration covering Third Party Person, having compulsory Third Party Property in WA is the smaller portion and would probably bring us up to speed with some other states?
The motor vehicle legally treated as economic equity rather than a high risk license needs more middle ground.

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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed May 23, 2018 2:18 pm

eldavo wrote:having compulsory Third Party Property in WA is the smaller portion and would probably bring us up to speed with some other states?


I don't think any state or territory has compulsory 3rd party property, though I might be mistaken.

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PA
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby PA » Wed May 23, 2018 2:47 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:I don't think any state or territory has compulsory 3rd party property, though I might be mistaken.

You are correct.

I think if any government made it compulsory then there would be fewer people who could afford to register their car and who would drive their cars without registration. So the government would miss out on the registration revenue.
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby eldavo » Wed May 23, 2018 2:53 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
eldavo wrote:having compulsory Third Party Property in WA is the smaller portion and would probably bring us up to speed with some other states?


I don't think any state or territory has compulsory 3rd party property, though I might be mistaken.

You're right, the CTP I was thinking of in some other states, is just open market choice of CTP injury, rather than WA government chosen CTP injury insurer, definitely not CTP property.

Trying to find if it exists across the world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_insurance

Stumbled on this interesting articulation of pure free markets:
The motivation for such a fund in South Africa is made abundantly clear. “Free markets, and in particular the private sector, do not fully address the impact of road accidents on society and on the economy,” the RAF website states. “The Road Accident Fund provides a social security safety net to the country and economy by making available compulsory social insurance cover to all users of South African roads.”

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Thoglette
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby Thoglette » Wed May 23, 2018 3:09 pm

PA wrote:I think if any government made it compulsory then there would be fewer people who could afford to register their car and who would drive their cars without registration. So the government would miss out on the registration revenue.


We're in "I think" territory again. :-)
Registration barely covers it's own costs, as such it is not a revenue raiser for the g'vt.

I'm embarrassed to say I can't find the article I want to cite, but I recall that about 20% of vehicles in Australia are either unregistered or driven by unlicensed drivers. In response one police force turned their in-vehicle unregistered vehicle detection off.

However, it will not have escaped your notice (I hope) that a reasonable percentage of serious high speed or DUI accidents involve a driver who is already banned from driving due to a string of previous offences.

The answer to all of these is to provide effective alternative transport options for those who shouldn't (or don't want to) drive. Currently these don't really exist in Australia (Have you tried to get your dog to the vet without a car? Tried to get to your job in an industrial area by pre-start without a car?)

Which is as much a failure of city planning as it is a transport failure. But transport is easier to fix in the short term.

The OP is stuck in the horns of a moral (& economic) dilemma.
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby eldavo » Wed May 23, 2018 3:21 pm

Thoglette wrote:The answer to all of these is to provide effective alternative transport options for those who shouldn't (or don't want to) drive. Currently these don't really exist in Australia (Have you tried to get your dog to the vet without a car? Tried to get to your job in an industrial area by pre-start without a car?)

Which is as much a failure of city planning as it is a transport failure. But transport is easier to fix in the short term.

I recently noticed in the Perth Airport industrial area, in a Recruitment department phone screen doc for apprentice applicants they emphasise no public transport is available at Perth Airport, you require a car.
It sounded rude and wrong, so I looked up trip options, there are a couple bus options to get here generally, only one CBD service early and regular enough service for apprentice/workshop start time. You just need to get to the CBD early enough. Cycling would be a good multi-modal connector if you could take bikes on the bus in WA.
On the airport note, where the bus stop is, there's no pedestrian access to get anywhere to it, cross the road, etc. My disdain for monopoly port authorities here only grows.

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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby NASHIE » Wed May 23, 2018 4:24 pm

B76 wrote:Yes, phoned the Insurance Commission WA and the CTP is only for medical issues and related compo. Does not cover property. The driver did not have any additional insurance such as Fire/Theft/Third party property.

I am thankful we are able to move forward amicably but am concerned about how a payment plan is undertaken, and enforced (hopefully never come to that) Has anyone seen a standard form?

I can salvage my accessories except the wheels, I am assuming the saddle and bars should be ok as they did not suffer impact damage from what I can see. Not sure about lateral forces on the seat however as the seat left a massive bruise on my inner thigh. It has carbon rails.


Just wondering if it might be worth touching base with a few bike shops to see if they are willing to take on her payment plan with an out clause that you pay up should she disappear ? . A sale is a sale at the end of the day.

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queequeg
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby queequeg » Wed May 23, 2018 5:30 pm

This is one case where having your own comprehensive insurance on your bike is a superior option.
You get your issue resolved quickly, and if the other person is uninsured, they have a big insurance company with a whole legal department and debt collection agency chasing after them instead of you having to waste your precious time dealing with them.

I really can't imagine how some people can drive a car around without 3rd party property insurance as a minimum. I know that pensioners get rego for free. I don't know about the CTP (injury), but realistically, if you crash into someone and you have no property insurance and no income, it could bankrupt you. Imagine running into a luxury car and causing $50k damage, or the more likely scenario, going through a shop front window when you hit the wrong pedal while parking!
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10speedsemiracer
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed May 23, 2018 6:41 pm

Unfortuntaley B76, circumstances have placed you in the worst possible scenario for debt recovery (uninsured, pension recipient). An informal payment arrangement is not an ongoing resolution, as in a lot of cases the impetus to keep paying diminishes with time, as the urgency of the situation fades. Eventually the debtor misses payments due to other life-admin expenses, then payments dry up altogether. Reality is that without some form of formalization of the debt owing, the likelihood of you being paid in full is minimal.
Couple of different scenarios exist.
1. Have a further discussion with the debtor and detail your situation and the loss that you've suffered fully. We're hoping to create some empathy-based urgency on the part of the debtor to either a, source funds from family or b, apply for a Centrelink loan (if she is in receipt of Centrelink). Don't allow more than a week to go by without making a further decision.
2. Have a further discussion with the debtor indicating that without payment you would need to seek a Court Order and recovery through the courts. The debtor's reaction should dictate which way you go. Be open to the idea of a settlement amount (say $1200 or whatever).
3. Proceed with a Minor Case Claim thru the WA Mag Crt. No solicitors, minimal fees. Process is :
- Claimant lodges a claim with the Magistrates Court.
- A copy of the claim is served on the defendant.
-The defendant has 14 days from the date of being served to decide whether to defend the claim. The claimant cannot proceed with the claim until this period has expired.
- The defendant may decide to admit to the claim and pay the debt, ignore the claim or defend the claim. If the claim is ignored you can make application to the court for judgement.
- If the claim is defended, the court registrar will list a pre-trial conference within 14 days of receiving notice from the defendant.Court serves a copy of the claim on the defendant on your behalf.
Fees up to an including service of document = $200 approx (from memory).
4. Cut your losses and walk away from the situation.

None of the above is easy or comfortable for most people, and the other consideration is the toll each of these processes will have on you (emotionally and mentally). Part of evaluating whether this is worthwhile will be the associated stress and anxiety which will affect individuals differently.

Sorry for the mini-essay.
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby Jmuzz » Wed May 23, 2018 11:30 pm

queequeg wrote:but realistically, if you crash into someone and you have no property insurance and no income, it could bankrupt you. Imagine running into a luxury car and causing $50k damage, or the more likely scenario, going through a shop front window when you hit the wrong pedal while parking!


They won't bankrupt you for accident damage, the court will put the person on a really really weak payment plan as low as $5 a week and allow it to be suspended if even that is too much.
End result is it can take a lifetime to pay but it won't be allowed to be wiped.

The trouble with mandatory TPP is prices would be gauranteed to jump significantly, since they now have a captive customer base. There aren't many actual insurers, everyone is just reselling.

For the sensible people the option is to ensure you have "at fault can't pay" cover.
Most TPP for cars has this up to $5k.
Bikes I'm not sure if the third party and bicycle association cover provides anything in that case?

B76
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby B76 » Thu May 24, 2018 1:45 am

Thanks for those tips 10speed, I will try again to discuss with her tomorrow, but since asking about her payment plan proposal all has gone quiet. I might need to follow up with the court.

Until my last renewal I had the bike listed as specified portable contents. Last renewal I found out the bike alone contributed over $250 to my home insurance so removed it. It is still covered as non specified portable, but limited to $1K with a $100 excess. I have spoken with my insurer and depending on the finer details I may be able to claim. Every bit helps.

I do know that with my next bike I will shop around for bicycle insurance. Best guarantee that nothing will ever go wrong again ;-)

And yes, if only compulsory third party also covered property ...

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familyguy
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby familyguy » Thu May 24, 2018 9:02 am

Jmuzz wrote:The trouble with mandatory TPP is prices would be gauranteed to jump significantly, since they now have a captive customer base. There aren't many actual insurers, everyone is just reselling.


^ This. Remember how green slips/health fund premiums/super funds were meant to be more competitive once they mandated it (in their roundabout way)? That sure worked. Mandatory TPP would go the same way.

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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby fat and old » Thu May 24, 2018 12:01 pm

eldavo wrote:
Thoglette wrote:The answer to all of these is to provide effective alternative transport options for those who shouldn't (or don't want to) drive. Currently these don't really exist in Australia (Have you tried to get your dog to the vet without a car? Tried to get to your job in an industrial area by pre-start without a car?)

Which is as much a failure of city planning as it is a transport failure. But transport is easier to fix in the short term.

I recently noticed in the Perth Airport industrial area, in a Recruitment department phone screen doc for apprentice applicants they emphasise no public transport is available at Perth Airport, you require a car.
It sounded rude and wrong,


Why? They were advising potentials on the transport issues. Nothing wrong with that.

Old mate OP is sorta screwed here. And the pensioner's family haven't (as far as we know) got into the act yet. I'd say a $5.00 per week payment plan is a real possibility unless they're good people and help the nana out. FWIW...if it was my mum, I'd pay the bill for her, depending on the attitude of the claimant. Reasonable bloke = payment. Asshat = nothing.

This is one of the problems with high end bikes and community attitudes. Very few outside of cycling have an inkling of the worth of these things, and meanwhile all the advocates are pushing cycling as a low cost realistic alternative transport. When people see 5, 10k and over bills they drop dead.

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queequeg
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby queequeg » Thu May 24, 2018 12:18 pm

familyguy wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:The trouble with mandatory TPP is prices would be gauranteed to jump significantly, since they now have a captive customer base. There aren't many actual insurers, everyone is just reselling.


^ This. Remember how green slips/health fund premiums/super funds were meant to be more competitive once they mandated it (in their roundabout way)? That sure worked. Mandatory TPP would go the same way.


No doubt it would. The fact that people can drive around uninsured for damage they can cause is why I protect myself with comprehensive insurance (including my bikes). While making TPP mandatory would most likely be a bad idea, for the reasons above, as a motorist you are taking a punt on your own skills that you will never find yourself in a circumstance where you cause significant damage to property other than your own. I get public liability cover up to $20 million with at least 5 different policies, but it doesn't apply when driving a motor vehicle (probably because of the relatively high probability that at some point you'll be involved in a collision).
If there are no consequences for running your car through a shop front window because you happen to be a pensioner without insurance, then I can see why they wouldn't bother with the expense. No doubt if you had a good income and assets, and you ran your 1979 corolla into the back of someone's Audi, you'll certainly be getting a hefty bill.
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Thoglette
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 24, 2018 12:22 pm

familyguy wrote: Mandatory TPP would go the same way.

Only if you swallow the neo-liberal Kool-Aid about how it shouldmust* be done.

*Heresy averted. Couldn't possibly have the g'mt running this or, worse, "upsetting the level playing field" by setting a reference priceunfairly competing.

Ever noticed how if something is 100% govt run, it's inefficient (and must be sold off) but if the govt is just one of the players it's unfairly competing (and must be sold off)?
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Re: Hit by an uninsured driver

Postby bychosis » Thu May 24, 2018 1:12 pm

fat and old wrote:Very few outside of cycling have an inkling of the worth of these things, and meanwhile all the advocates are pushing cycling as a low cost realistic alternative transport. When people see 5, 10k and over bills they drop dead.


It's probably easier to collect from the estate though.
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