Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

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Howzat
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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby Howzat » Wed May 30, 2018 4:19 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:Most drivers are good around cyclists.


This is true. Even in Sydney. On the road, I'm always waving at the nice drivers, I follow the road rules, and I avoid annoying cyclist tricks like running red lights (while motorists are watching.)

I'm pretty sure that the ratio of cyclists running red lights to whiny calls to shock jocks about about how cyclists always run red lights is at least 1:1.

On the other hand, if a driver comes too close I will chase them down and explain the danger in clear and simple terms.

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby human909 » Wed May 30, 2018 5:00 pm

BugsBunny wrote:Here in Hong Kong the road laws do not permit two abreast riding.

I know the environment is different here and a whole host of other reasons but frankly I think on balance its a good idea to ride single file. I mean we have to share the roads - and if it means we can continue riding whilst making car drivers that little bit more happier to share the roads with us, I think its a good idea.

Bugs


Riding single file doesn't help anyone unless there is sufficient room for motorists to pass safely within the same lane. On the majority roads this does not seem to be the case.

If the lane is wide enough then I do believe the courteous thing for cyclists (or any road user) is to make the space available for faster traffic to pass. So yes I think it is polite to move to single file in some circumstances.

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby Jmuzz » Wed May 30, 2018 5:14 pm

Jawa wrote:I know two wrongs don’t make it right but as a cyclist why bother being nice and courteous anymore. Sure obey the road rules, same goes for cars. But being nice to drivers does nothing to change their mindset and never will


Because the haters are only a minority.
Just have to browse through their comments to see that half aren't even employable or functional members of society.

Almost everyone is a "driver" and obviously all society isn't the sort of person in those groups otherwise we would be living in a third world warzone.

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby human909 » Wed May 30, 2018 6:33 pm

Jawa wrote:I know two wrongs don’t make it right but as a cyclist why bother being nice and courteous anymore. Sure obey the road rules, same goes for cars. But being nice to drivers does nothing to change their mindset and never will


Um.... What you are suggesting there is how societies fall apart. Treat your fellow citizens with respect, politeness and courtesy. Pretty basic really. You seem to be suggesting just because some motorists have wronged you, that you should therefore hold a grudge against all motorists. AKA bigotry.

Oh and as far as obeying the road rules. In my opinion the road rules come vastly behind in priority compared to safe, courteous and careful driving. These often align with the road rules but not always.

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby mikesbytes » Wed May 30, 2018 8:24 pm

BugsBunny wrote:Here in Hong Kong the road laws do not permit two abreast riding.

I know the environment is different here and a whole host of other reasons but frankly I think on balance its a good idea to ride single file. I mean we have to share the roads - and if it means we can continue riding whilst making car drivers that little bit more happier to share the roads with us, I think its a good idea.

Bugs

A significant problem in Australia is that some motorists will perform dangerous close passes squeezing you within the same lane, where 2 abreast will mean that they have to change lanes to overtake which is considerably safer.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby g-boaf » Wed May 30, 2018 8:28 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
BugsBunny wrote:Here in Hong Kong the road laws do not permit two abreast riding.

I know the environment is different here and a whole host of other reasons but frankly I think on balance its a good idea to ride single file. I mean we have to share the roads - and if it means we can continue riding whilst making car drivers that little bit more happier to share the roads with us, I think its a good idea.

Bugs

A significant problem in Australia is that some motorists will perform dangerous close passes squeezing you within the same lane, where 2 abreast will mean that they have to change lanes to overtake which is considerably safer.


They'll even do that when you ride single file. Hence why I don't ride close to the edge of the road. Much to the annoyance of someone I used to ride with, but I've had enough experience to prove the worth of giving yourself that extra room to move over in an emergency.

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby Arbuckle23 » Wed May 30, 2018 8:49 pm

Jawa wrote:
As I always say im more than happy to pay whatever token rego cost that would be imposed. However, if you’re a driver don’t come bitchin when im riding down the middle of now “our” single carriageway lane at 25kph in a 80kph zone holding up peak hour traffic all the way back to the suburbs … cause hey, by your definition im now entitled to be there.


My sentiment exactly, if I have to pay rego then I am using the whole lane that (in their opinion) I'm paying to use!

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby Thoglette » Wed May 30, 2018 10:00 pm

Interesting coverage on Channel Ten's "The Project" tonight. They had a dig at the "Drivers For Registration of Cyclists" for suddenly going all media shy. And made them look like prats for posting videos of Moron Motorist induced collisions with comments like "they deserved that".

Then got someone from TAC or something similar to add some, ah, more balanced commentary. Including that, actually, 2 abreast is actually often safer for all.

Closed it out with footage of road users of all stripes being idiots - cyclists and car drivers alike.
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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby queequeg » Thu May 31, 2018 12:29 am

mikesbytes wrote:
BugsBunny wrote:Here in Hong Kong the road laws do not permit two abreast riding.

I know the environment is different here and a whole host of other reasons but frankly I think on balance its a good idea to ride single file. I mean we have to share the roads - and if it means we can continue riding whilst making car drivers that little bit more happier to share the roads with us, I think its a good idea.

Bugs

A significant problem in Australia is that some motorists will perform dangerous close passes squeezing you within the same lane, where 2 abreast will mean that they have to change lanes to overtake which is considerably safer.


I always take the primary position in the lane. Riding close to the gutter is pretty much going to ensure you get a close shave, and I have many experiences with just that, with a couple of motorists actually coming so close I felt the side of their car brush me as they sped past.

I have also adjusted my routes a number of times, because regardless of what the law says, increased traffic and density due to prolific construction where I live means mixing it with speeding trucks and tradies, and for the sake of a couple of extra minutes it is not worth it going the direct route at certain times of day. In fact, those direct routes are now so clogged with traffic that sometimes taking the stupid long way around results in you still beating the cars

Exhibit A: Car close shaves me coming out of my street, races ahead. I take the scenic route through empty backstreets and rejoin the masses a few km away. Hello mr MGIF, is that you?




In the 10 years I have been riding, I think the longest I have ever held up a motorist is about 20 seconds, going up the steep side of Galston Gorge on a quiet Sunday afternoon.
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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby b4igo » Thu May 31, 2018 7:14 am

queequeg wrote:Exhibit A: Car close shaves me coming out of my street, races ahead. I take the scenic route through empty backstreets and rejoin the masses a few km away. Hello mr MGIF, is that you?.


Such magnificently beautiful poetic justice :lol: thanks for sharing!

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby Jmuzz » Thu May 31, 2018 7:29 am

Thoglette wrote:They had a dig at the "Drivers For Registration of Cyclists" for suddenly going all media shy.


They can't get give any media interviews because all their admins and petition founders are "foreign citizens" who nobody has seen in person :mrgreen:

Apparently these foreigners care so much about cycling in a country they have never been that they start political petitions and hourly Facebook admin during Au timezones.

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby bychosis » Thu May 31, 2018 9:55 am

Jmuzz wrote:Apparently these foreigners care so much about cycling in a country they have never been that they start political petitions and hourly Facebook admin during Au timezones.


An unfortunate side effect of social media. When you can make money off advertising, then there is a good reason to be inflammatory. They've scoured the web, found a hot media topic and get stuck in, and it doesn't matter which side they are on. Views get bucks.
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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby queequeg » Thu May 31, 2018 10:19 am

b4igo wrote:
queequeg wrote:Exhibit A: Car close shaves me coming out of my street, races ahead. I take the scenic route through empty backstreets and rejoin the masses a few km away. Hello mr MGIF, is that you?.


Such magnificently beautiful poetic justice :lol: thanks for sharing!


It highlighted to me why I need not be concerned about always taking the most direct route on my commute. I whined to myself a bit at first about how I shouldn't have to change my route because motorists were dangerous, but the scenic route is so much less stressful than trying to do a max effort up a 2km long hill with no road shoulder, navigating one of the worst roundabouts for accidents in the area safely, then trying to get into the right lane to make a sharp right hand turn whilst traveling downhill, with more insane motorists trying to overtake you. All this in the first 3k of my commute.
I used to get off this busy road, and I would be at max heart rate, legs burning, and it would take the next 4km before everything settled down. I didn't need that stress anymore, then I looked over google maps and found all the little paths joining streets together, and I had a new almost zero traffic route. So, for a Mon-Fri commute, I won't use the main road anymore.
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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu May 31, 2018 10:22 am

Thoglette wrote:Interesting coverage on Channel Ten's "The Project" tonight. They had a dig at the "Drivers For Registration of Cyclists" for suddenly going all media shy. And made them look like prats for posting videos of Moron Motorist induced collisions with comments like "they deserved that".

Then got someone from TAC or something similar to add some, ah, more balanced commentary. Including that, actually, 2 abreast is actually often safer for all.

Closed it out with footage of road users of all stripes being idiots - cyclists and car drivers alike.


I just went and watched that on Facebook. A good piece - well done to them.

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby BugsBunny » Thu May 31, 2018 11:40 am

It's a tough cookie to crack as there are just too many variables in play.

The key challenges for roadies in HK are:
- majority of roads are narrow,
- most roads are climbs or descents - so either super slow or super fast speeds - very little flats,
- many more wide body vehicles (minibuses, large buses, and HK is a major logistics hub so 3-5 ton trucks and container truckers are in the thousands;
- thousands of taxis - who are generally impatient drivers,
- probably equal number of motor head hoons.
- arguably slower speeds here than in cities in Oz.
- traffic congestion is bad - so drivers are impatient;
- lots of newbie cyclists who ride in ways that can be seen as "antagonising" drivers - eg. hogging a narrow road uphill at 8km/k; running red lights; bunch riding with no space for cars to overtake.

Cycling here has also boomed in recent years so the same/similar cyclist/driver sentiment now exists. We had 3 major cyclist accidents here last weekend with at least one dead.

We don't have the 1 meter rule here. I think it would be great. That's a great law IMHO.

Now with all the above, I have witnessed on many occasions that single file riding "just works". The car drivers don't necessarily have anything against cyclists. They just want to pass and move on. I totally get that there are bastard drivers who deliberately squeeze you. It happens here too. But *on balance* I just think one abreast is better than two abreast - if it simply means letting cars get that extra space to go around you (if safe)

Not here for a p!ssing match, but sharing what works (fairly well) in other cities.

Bugs

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby find_bruce » Thu May 31, 2018 11:44 am

queequeg wrote:I used to get off this busy road, and I would be at max heart rate, legs burning, and it would take the next 4km before everything settled down. I didn't need that stress anymore, then I looked over google maps and found all the little paths joining streets together, and I had a new almost zero traffic route. So, for a Mon-Fri commute, I won't use the main road anymore.

It's interesting how different roads lead to different experiences - I live much closer to the CBD & at the times I commute the main roads are already so congested that motor vehicles are going slower than me. How bad? The average speed along Victoria Rd is less than 20 km/h & that's not counting the time it takes to get onto Victoria Rd.

I used to take the back routes however the occasional cars I encountered were rat runners desperate to beat the traffic that their speed & behaviour was far more dangerous than on the main roads.

On the topic of bans, imagine how much less congestion there would be if single occupant cars were banned from using major roads during peak hours

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby human909 » Thu May 31, 2018 12:26 pm

BugsBunny wrote:But *on balance* I just think one abreast is better than two abreast - if it simply means letting cars get that extra space to go around you (if safe)

I agree.

But most of the time 1 abreast doesn't allow cars "that extra space" to go around you.
-If the lane is narrow and there is on coming traffic then there isn't enough room either single file or 2 abreast.
-If there is no oncoming traffic and appropriate sight lines then you can safely pass regardless of 1 or 2 abreast
-As far as I am concerned single file only is preferred on wide lanes. Which I do do when needed.

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby BugsBunny » Thu May 31, 2018 12:40 pm

human909 wrote:
BugsBunny wrote:But *on balance* I just think one abreast is better than two abreast - if it simply means letting cars get that extra space to go around you (if safe)

I agree.

But most of the time 1 abreast doesn't allow cars "that extra space" to go around you.
-If the lane is narrow and there is on coming traffic then there isn't enough room either single file or 2 abreast.
-If there is no oncoming traffic and appropriate sight lines then you can safely pass regardless of 1 or 2 abreast
-As far as I am concerned single file only is preferred on wide lanes. Which I do do when needed.


I think we are saying the same thing. As I said "if safe". If its not safe (road too narrow, oncoming traffic, blind corners, etc) and we are 1 abreast (or even 2 abreast), then the cars should still wait until appropriate to do so. It just makes it much harder for cars to pass when two abreast. I would guess that if the road laws here made 2 abreast riding legal, this would be the tipping point and all hell would break loose. Nobody wins.

Bugs

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby queequeg » Thu May 31, 2018 1:48 pm

find_bruce wrote:It's interesting how different roads lead to different experiences - I live much closer to the CBD & at the times I commute the main roads are already so congested that motor vehicles are going slower than me. How bad? The average speed along Victoria Rd is less than 20 km/h & that's not counting the time it takes to get onto Victoria Rd.

I used to take the back routes however the occasional cars I encountered were rat runners desperate to beat the traffic that their speed & behaviour was far more dangerous than on the main roads.

On the topic of bans, imagine how much less congestion there would be if single occupant cars were banned from using major roads during peak hours


Yes, the closer you get to the CBD, the more congested the roads get, and the average speed comes down to less than what a bicycle does. However, where I start my commute is 20km out of the CBD (as the crow flies), in a suburb where all the commuters and tradies are in a mad rush to get onto these main roads before they get too congested. They are all speeding and desperate to avoid the traffic jam closer in. Getting buzzed by a Truck & Dog Trailer doing 80km/h in a 60 zone at 6am is not my idea of fun.
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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby P!N20 » Thu May 31, 2018 2:57 pm

queequeg wrote:


I'm not surprised you caught up with the car riding that fast. :wink:

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby Jmuzz » Thu May 31, 2018 4:46 pm

Text from Cycliq Facebook.
Media are asking them for close pass footage etc. if anyone has good stuff

---------------
AUSSIE CYCLISTS, WE NEED YOUR HELP.

No doubt you've seen the Change.org petition going around wanting to make cycling single file mandatory.

We've been contacted by a range of media outlets wanting footage from our cameras that showcase the range of Aussie driver behaviour, demonstrating just how dangerous it can be out there for cyclists.

We don't normally get involved, but want to make sure that there's a balanced debate and if we can help you have a voice and share your experience, then we're all for it.

So if you have some footage that you haven't shared with us, go to www.cycliq.com/ridesafe and upload it.

Let us know if you are happy to be contacted for an interview or comment (you don't have to be willing to comment, we can just use the footage without a comment and it will be anonymous unless you want it to be attributed to you).

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby mikesbytes » Thu May 31, 2018 6:50 pm

There would be no point in explaining to them that they are better off if cyclists ride 2 abreast as this isn't about logic its about hate

https://www.facebook.com/CyclingNSW/posts/2019439974795718?hc_location=ufi
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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby Thoglette » Thu May 31, 2018 7:25 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Text from Cycliq Facebook.
Media are asking them for close pass footage etc. if anyone has good stuff


Point them at the Moron Motorist's threads. Thread #3 is up to 703 pages and absolutely packed with close-pass videos
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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby BianchiCam » Thu May 31, 2018 7:48 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:That sorry excuse for a diagram quoted in the article is just laughable. It basically says "If cyclists ride two abreast, motorists will be forced to do unsafe overtakes and get dangerously close to oncoming traffic". What complete moron made this diagram?

My main fear is that a lot of people will believe it. The petition has over 80,000 signatures (if you believe News Corp, anyway), which worries me.


What worries me more is that I have had conversations with Police officers that were parroting the same thing.
Latest Officer was not going to fine someone a few days pay for what is a 'technical' breach of the law when clearly (his words) the driver has 'made an effort'

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Re: Ban on riding two abreast or riding on roads without cycling lanes

Postby Jmuzz » Thu May 31, 2018 9:19 pm

Thoglette wrote:Point them at the Moron Motorist's threads. Thread #3 is up to 703 pages and absolutely packed with close-pass videos


I'm sure they need the release consent of the webform plus want an easier selection.

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