Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby fat and old » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:13 pm

human909 wrote:Saw this headline today. I haven't read the article because it is paywalled.

MUM TOO SCARED TO CROSS BUSY STUD RD
MOTHER-OF-TWO Lana Formoso lives just 400m from Dandenong basketball stadium but drives there because it’s too dangerous to cross busy Stud Road.A DANDENONG North mother-of-two, who lives 400m from Dandenong basketball stadium, said she now drives there


We design our suburbs around cars. It is sad. I currently work near Stud road and now know the road reasonably well. I also saw an old lady struggling to cross it at an uncontrolled point this week. Oddly enough it is actually serviced by fairly good bike paths especially considering that the bike path building began in 1977! But the urban landscape is sparse with 80kph and 70kph roads separating vast distances between amenities. The bicycle paths generally are crossed by sliplanes and fast moving cars that give no thought for cyclists.

I believe il Padrone knows more and often used to mention it: https://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/view ... x#p1369226

There isn't much good having cycling infrastructure if the roads are hostile (aka high speed) and there is nowhere to actually ride to.


Ironically enough, cyclists have excellent access to that stadium through the Dany Ck Trail, including underpasses beneath the Monash Fwy and Heatherton Rd.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby NASHIE » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:56 pm

human909 wrote:
Getting kids back onto bikes probably shouldn't be overstated. The safety of children is a much easier sell than the safety of MAMILS. Get the state pollies out of their cars and standing on the street in front of South Brunswick Primary School. Then ask them how come they aren't passing laws to make these kids safe.


This is were it really needs to start. And it has to be pushed hard from all directions. The current 'war on waste' is the type of media coverage needed to get kids and parents walking and riding to school. Then the public pressure starts on safer crossings etc. That said 30-40 yrs ago you used to struggle to find a spot to lean your bike for the day (and no bike locks). These days the primary school bike sheds only have a handful of bikes in them. I think road crossing are generally better than 30yrs ago but cotton woolling of most kids has sadly changed human behaviour. Its going to be very hard to turn around.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:30 pm

NASHIE wrote:I think road crossing are generally better than 30yrs ago but cotton woolling of most kids has sadly changed human behaviour. Its going to be very hard to turn around.

It is very hard to get parents to let kids do something that they the parents are afraid of doing!

One of the few positive examples:
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.780 ... 312!8i6656
A primary school with the photo taken just prior to winter.

And the secondary school has bikes packed to the brim along a fair bit of the school perimiter.

The extreme exceptions to the norm but it is worth having a look to see what factors have allowed this to occur. :idea:


Meanwhile in another part of Melbourne.
"As the crow flies, Eliott lives a kilometre from his school."
"Eliott has to travel 10 kilometres by car every morning to access his “neighbourhood” school, Altona Green Primary.
“Sometime it takes us 40 minutes, sometimes it takes 38 minutes,”
“I would like her to be able to walk to school but it’s too dangerous,”

Both bad planning and excessive fears at play here.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby NASHIE » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:01 pm

human909 wrote: excessive fears at play here.


This. Recent email from a local primary school mum, stateing that she is not going to let her child walk to school anymore. Why ? because she has seen through the media a peodophile has been released a couple of suburbs away :roll: . There is probably one living next door to her.
I don't know how, but kids need to teach parents to chill out.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Mububban » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:40 pm

g-boaf wrote:I've been out riding with some juniors from our club and some old people come rushing up from behind and blasting away on the horn, only to make a right turn perhaps 50 metres further down the road. If they do that to kids, what hope do the rest of us have?


That's disappointing. When I say kids, I mean primary school aged kids not in lycra, not riding on the road etc.

Being a club ride, were the kids on the road wearing lycra etc? If drivers can't tell the different between men and women in lycra, they probably can't identify kids as being kids either.
Or they were very obviously young kids, and the drivers don't care because as you said, they may have been delayed by all of 10 seconds and that's just not acceptable to many car drivers :cry:
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby fat and old » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:08 pm

NASHIE wrote:
human909 wrote: excessive fears at play here.


This. Recent email from a local primary school mum, stateing that she is not going to let her child walk to school anymore. Why ? because she has seen through the media a peodophile has been released a couple of suburbs away :roll: . There is probably one living next door to her.
I don't know how, but kids need to teach parents to chill out.


How can they do that when they themselves can't chill out for fear of social media retribution? Make no mistake, this is major, and not getting any better. It was bad enough when you had the peer pressure from other parents.....I was bailed up by other parents picking my son up from school once (he was in grade 2....24 years ago!!) because he'd said that he'll be smacked at home if he misbehaves. They actually thought they were going to do something about this!!!! :lol: It got so I had to put the sock full of billiard balls away and just use a closed fist ffs.....imagine what it would be like now? I'd be outed and have my face all over the media!!

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:14 pm

Mububban wrote:
g-boaf wrote:I've been out riding with some juniors from our club and some old people come rushing up from behind and blasting away on the horn, only to make a right turn perhaps 50 metres further down the road. If they do that to kids, what hope do the rest of us have?


That's disappointing. When I say kids, I mean primary school aged kids not in lycra, not riding on the road etc.


Exactly. It takes the most soulless person to buzz by a small child on a bike with a school bag on.

Those "pieces of scum in Lycra" however are relegated to the angry hate bin. :roll: :evil: It shouldn't be underestimated the effect that the Lycra uniform has on perception of somebody riding a bicycle. Though when I pointed this out on this forum I get attacked for it and have regularly been called anti-lycra for it. :|

The kids here locally mostly stick to the paths and back roads, but it certainly isn't abnormal to see primary aged kids on the road here. Even my 4 year old nephew and his 3 year old friend felt comfortable and emboldened to ride on a short road segment and even pointed out their own audacity. (The toddlers and I did get chastised :oops: :lol: )

fat and old wrote:They actually thought they were going to do something about this!!!! :lol: It got so I had to put the sock full of billiard balls away and just use a closed fist ffs.....imagine what it would be like now? I'd be outed and have my face all over the media!!

:? Unless your comments are completely tongue in cheek I'm not sure these words support your case. As an observation in these comments and others, you do seem to be more accepting of physical action to solve disputes. I don't think society's reduced tolerance for using violence to solve disputes is related to societies greater fear of pedophiles.

(I think our attitudes differ here. I'm not trying to debate the different attitudes, just observing them...)

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby baabaa » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:39 pm

Rose coloured glasses about all things Holland help ( being ½ Dutch I can say that as they really do know how to bs and spin people, and then laugh as they get away with it....)

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/07/e ... ince-2014/

Last year more people were killed in bike accidents in the Netherlands than in accidents involving cars. Of the 613 people killed on the Dutch roads, 206 were on a bike and 201 in a car. A quarter of the dead cyclists were using an e-bike.

TBH, I would prefer Aust had more of a Santiago (Chile) take on bikes. Kinda anti Netherlands bike structure bikes are everywhere, road, footpath and on and off road and off and on footpath at the same time, fancy bikes , crap one, riders who are kiddies and elderly, beaten up cargos lugging goods from inter state trucks out of the city to the food markets. It is a good place to ride and the number of bike separated lanes are growing and drivers know that they will see people on bikes so when the do they slow, give them space and most of the time, time. More bike make more bike and so on.
We could do that here now if people and local govt just relaxed and let people ride if they want or not if they don’t. Pretty cheap and simple really all it is is just chill. Worked in Manly and my kids still ride to the local school if they wish just like many other. It is just BS that parents will stop kids doing good things just because they are scared. Scouts and cub group numbers across Aust are now re growing just because parents want the kiddies pressed to do different and somewhat borderline "unsafe" stuff.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:07 pm

baabaa wrote:It is just BS that parents will stop kids doing good things just because they are scared. Scouts and cub group numbers across Aust are now re growing just because parents want the kiddies pressed to do different and somewhat borderline "unsafe" stuff.

BS? I think your own word offer some evidence against that. The club groups that "re growing" are doing from a shrunken base while population has grown significantly.

And many parents that are encouraging their kids to "to do different and somewhat borderline "unsafe" stuff" are still driving them too and from said activities. The notion of letting you kids loose on the streets and in local parks still is far from what it used to be like.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Scintilla » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:24 pm

human909 wrote:Saw this headline today. I haven't read the article because it is paywalled.

MUM TOO SCARED TO CROSS BUSY STUD RD
MOTHER-OF-TWO Lana Formoso lives just 400m from Dandenong basketball stadium but drives there because it’s too dangerous to cross busy Stud Road.A DANDENONG North mother-of-two, who lives 400m from Dandenong basketball stadium, said she now drives there


We design our suburbs around cars. It is sad. I currently work near Stud road and now know the road reasonably well. I also saw an old lady struggling to cross it at an uncontrolled point this week. Oddly enough it is actually serviced by fairly good bike paths especially considering that the bike path building began in 1977! But the urban landscape is sparse with 80kph and 70kph roads separating vast distances between amenities. The bicycle paths generally are crossed by sliplanes and fast moving cars that give no thought for cyclists.

I believe il Padrone knows more and often used to mention it: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=91701&p=1369226&hilit=knox#p1369226

There isn't much good having cycling infrastructure if the roads are hostile (aka high speed) and there is nowhere to actually ride to.


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http://www.freerangekids.com/how-childr ... nerations/

Ironically it is at least as bad here in Victoria now. The streets and driver actions generally are far safer than they were 30-40 years ago, but nobody seems to understand it. Sure, there are more cars about, but that is certainly an easy thing to change :roll:

Drivers are now severely constrained by speed cameras, BAC testing and licence loss, much lower speed limits with stricter enforcement, and generally the congestion IS actually a benefit to people riding bikes. Traffic is slower moving and more able to anticipate and deal with a person riding a bicycle.

If ONLY they would actually get out and ride the bikes. ON. The. Road!

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby NASHIE » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:25 pm

human909 wrote:
baabaa wrote:It is just BS that parents will stop kids doing good things just because they are scared. Scouts and cub group numbers across Aust are now re growing just because parents want the kiddies pressed to do different and somewhat borderline "unsafe" stuff.

BS? I think your own word offer some evidence against that. The club groups that "re growing" are doing from a shrunken base while population has grown significantly.

And many parents that are encouraging their kids to "to do different and somewhat borderline "unsafe" stuff" are still driving them too and from said activities. The notion of letting you kids loose on the streets and in local parks still is far from what it used to be like.


My son did a very short stint in scouts about 5 yrs ago and the change from the 80s to now i can only put down to red tape, insurance etc.
80s was jump in the back of a parents milk truck and drive 4 hours south for a weekend of caveing sleeping under a tarp. 2013....once finish filling in a 10 page form leave your kid to sleep in the hall and play pin the tail on the donkey. Don't know what happened in the 20yrs in-between.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby g-boaf » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:01 pm

baabaa wrote:Rose coloured glasses about all things Holland help ( being ½ Dutch I can say that as they really do know how to bs and spin people, and then laugh as they get away with it....)

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/07/e ... ince-2014/

Last year more people were killed in bike accidents in the Netherlands than in accidents involving cars. Of the 613 people killed on the Dutch roads, 206 were on a bike and 201 in a car. A quarter of the dead cyclists were using an e-bike.


That's fake news! I'll bet you get silence on those.


I prefer to nominate other European cities as a better example - none of the stereotypes and hype of Dutch cycling. I think Innsbruck has it right for riders and just everyone in general.But it is also not a really large city like Sydney, they are only around 125,000 people. We are many times that.

We can still do better than we are now. I'd love to see better connected cycleways.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby fat and old » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:03 pm

human909 wrote:
fat and old wrote:They actually thought they were going to do something about this!!!! :lol: It got so I had to put the sock full of billiard balls away and just use a closed fist ffs.....imagine what it would be like now? I'd be outed and have my face all over the media!!

:? Unless your comments are completely tongue in cheek I'm not sure these words support your case. As an observation in these comments and others, you do seem to be more accepting of physical action to solve disputes. I don't think society's reduced tolerance for using violence to solve disputes is related to societies greater fear of pedophiles.

(I think our attitudes differ here. I'm not trying to debate the different attitudes, just observing them....


:lol: :lol: He got a smack on the bum maybe 3 times in his life. The rest was what I was being made out to be. If that makes me sub human, a potential wife beater or god forbid a liberal voter fine. My family, friends and I know the truth. And if you grew up where I did you either learned to fight, learned to run or both :lol:

Interestingly the greatest social changes in our society have come about due to violence...either outright as in war or through violent protest. Which is what I’ve been saying. You don’t think a majority wanted an end to the Vietnam war do you? The shearer’s strike of 1891 here in Australia....you don’t think they played paper scissors rock? Have a google on the Dutch Kindermood campaign images :wink: A form of violence is almost mandatory for significant change if the group campaigning is a minority.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby fat and old » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:09 pm

g-boaf wrote:
baabaa wrote:Rose coloured glasses about all things Holland help ( being ½ Dutch I can say that as they really do know how to bs and spin people, and then laugh as they get away with it....)

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/07/e ... ince-2014/

Last year more people were killed in bike accidents in the Netherlands than in accidents involving cars. Of the 613 people killed on the Dutch roads, 206 were on a bike and 201 in a car. A quarter of the dead cyclists were using an e-bike.


That's fake news! I'll bet you get silence on those.




No, he won’t. Thoglette and maybe H will supply the stats that show per kilometres ridden it’s safer than here.

I know because they did it to me when I posted similar last year :lol: and to be honest they’re correct. More riders, more rides, more deaths. It’s unavoidable.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby fat and old » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:17 pm



I knew something bothered me about that. There’s a damned good reason people got worried about their kids in that area

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherh ... on_scandal

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby NASHIE » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:24 pm

fat and old wrote:
I knew something bothered me about that. There’s a damned good reason people got worried about their kids in that area

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherh ... on_scandal


Hard to read this sort of stuff, but it has always been there and unfortunately always will. These kids would of been safer riding a bike or walking.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Scintilla » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:49 pm

fat and old wrote:


I knew something bothered me about that. There’s a damned good reason people got worried about their kids in that area

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherh ... on_scandal


EXACTLY the sort of numpty fearmongering that has been at the heart of parental-paranoia in Australia :cry: :roll:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-13/k ... ed/7321604
http://twistedhistory.net.au/wordpress/ ... asley-2-2/

It is an outrage that such crimes occur; but what is even more outrageous is that parents 'bubble-wrap' their children in fear. And yet more often than not the greatest risks come from within the immediate family and friends. Riding a bicycle and getting about independently in the community is all very low in the scale of risks.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:37 am

Cyclophiliac wrote:I think the main reason Amsterdam's cycling policies will never work here is because Australia is a lot newer than the European countries, and so has been dominated by motor vehicles for a larger proportion of its history, and of course the large travel distances just reinforces this. This is why cyclists will probably always be a small minority in Australia, with correspondingly less influence on transport policies.

Post WW2 so much of major cities and dense urban areas of the Netherlands were destroyed. That lacking urbia gave them a cleaner canvass on which they saw the opportunity to forge cities not according to restriction forced by what is there but according to whatever future they wished to see. They deliberately chose to make their cities less car-dependent.

While most of us would jump in and replace what we lost with more of the same, those in the Netherlands truly ventured where few would be willing. And I imagine under much international and economic and financial criticism.

But Perth, while maybe relatively young, still has those restrictions that well developed cities tend to have.

It's worth doing a google with the terms Netherlands, post-ww2, reconstruction (the term the planners used). But at as a starter:
A new, better, more beautiful city

Reconstruction is the term used to denote the redevelopment of the Netherlands after the destruction of World War Two. In architecture and urban design it chiefly covers the period from 1945 to about 1968, and Rotterdam is the ultimate City of Reconstruction. Nowhere is that more visible than in the city centre. The bombing of 14 May 1940 destroyed the heart of the city, but other cities such as Middelburg, Arnhem, Nijmegen and Den Helder were also hit badly. Rotterdam tackled its reconstruction in the most rigorous and consistent manner and applied new ideas concerning functional planning. Rotterdam had never been renowned for its urban beauty, which is why so much of the city was cleared to create a tabula rasa for a new, better, more beautiful world.
[url]https://www.wederopbouwrotterdam.nl/en/post-war-reconstruction/[/url]
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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Mububban » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:35 am

Scintilla wrote:It is an outrage that such crimes occur; but what is even more outrageous is that parents 'bubble-wrap' their children in fear. And yet more often than not the greatest risks come from within the immediate family and friends. Riding a bicycle and getting about independently in the community is all very low in the scale of risks.


I was a classmate of 6 year old Kylie Maybury who was raped and murdered in Melbourne in the 80s. I'd have to ask my parents if they changed their/my behaviours after the incident, but I remember walking to school all my primary aged years, either with my mum when she was home with us, or with my older sister and other neighbourhood kids as she went back to work.

We moved to Perth when I was in year 4 and my friends and I would all walk or ride home on our own and let ourselves in due to parents being at work. We'd go to the shops on the way home and buy chips or lollies and I absolutely loved the sense of freedom and being trusted to look after ourselves. No mobile phones at that stage either.

Fast forward to 2018 and my kids are in year 2 and 4, and my wife (who is still at home but looking for part time work) doesn't let them out of her sight. We live within 1km of school without any major roads to cross, but they don't go to or from there on their own. And all of this is directly driven by her fear for their safety, which is understandable, but also has real potential to cause long term harm for their own sense of independence and autonomy.
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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby NASHIE » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:02 pm

Mububban wrote:
Scintilla wrote:It is an outrage that such crimes occur; but what is even more outrageous is that parents 'bubble-wrap' their children in fear. And yet more often than not the greatest risks come from within the immediate family and friends. Riding a bicycle and getting about independently in the community is all very low in the scale of risks.


I was a classmate of 6 year old Kylie Maybury who was raped and murdered in Melbourne in the 80s. I'd have to ask my parents if they changed their/my behaviours after the incident, but I remember walking to school all my primary aged years, either with my mum when she was home with us, or with my older sister and other neighbourhood kids as she went back to work.

We moved to Perth when I was in year 4 and my friends and I would all walk or ride home on our own and let ourselves in due to parents being at work. We'd go to the shops on the way home and buy chips or lollies and I absolutely loved the sense of freedom and being trusted to look after ourselves. No mobile phones at that stage either.

Fast forward to 2018 and my kids are in year 2 and 4, and my wife (who is still at home but looking for part time work) doesn't let them out of her sight. We live within 1km of school without any major roads to cross, but they don't go to or from there on their own. And all of this is directly driven by her fear for their safety, which is understandable, but also has real potential to cause long term harm for their own sense of independence and autonomy.


Similar conditions to you although our youngest is the last one in primary school. I received many raised eyebrows over the years due to teaching all the kids to ride on the road for the 1km to school. I feel safer in the knowledge that they weren’t going to get hit by distracted mums and dads backing out across footpaths etc. Now with the older kids, im relaxed in letting the 15yr old head of training on his own for a couple of hours on the road. It is hard and im sure it was hard for our mum and dads, but that independence is one of the best things you can equipe your kids for the future.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby human909 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:20 pm

When I was 9 I was catching two busses to get to school. My range around my house on the bike was probably around 3-4km. I didn't have a boundary. When I was 12 my range on my bike was probably 15-20km. Fancy doing all that navigation and not getting lost without google maps! (Many adults probably couldn't manage that now.)

Childhood exploration comes naturally. I remember before my nephew could even talk he enjoyed exploring the streetscape around him. Rather than going to the park, I just let him toddle down the street. Everything from letterboxes to telecom manholes were an interest. He still expresses an interest in navigation, from all his time spent on the back of a bicycle he knows the local streets well.

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby find_bruce » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:45 pm

human909 wrote:1m passing rule or not, Victoria has a safer cycling culture than NSW and QLD from what I've seen reported and from what I've experience myself. (Not that it is a competition.) NT and ACT probably lead the way overall.
Do you have any data to back-up your opinion. According to the Australian Road Deaths database for 2011-2018:

Vic (average 8.5 per year, 3.3% of total road deaths)
NSW (8.9 & 2.5%) &
Qld (8.4 & 3.3%)
all much the same.

WA (5.1 & 2.9%)
SA (4.3 & 4.4%)
a bit better &

Tas (1.2 & 3.7%)
NT (0.5 & 1.2%) &
ACT (0.7 & 6.9%)
Better still

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Scintilla » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:45 pm

Mububban wrote:Fast forward to 2018 and my kids are in year 2 and 4, and my wife (who is still at home but looking for part time work) doesn't let them out of her sight. We live within 1km of school without any major roads to cross, but they don't go to or from there on their own. And all of this is directly driven by her fear for their safety, which is understandable, but also has real potential to cause long term harm for their own sense of independence and autonomy.

Really sad to hear about :cry:

We had the same about 20 years ago when we sent our kids (early primary) up the street two doors to play with some new neighbours' kids. Their mum got all her three kids, locked the house, and marched them down to our house to return our kids. On a later occasion she sent our kids home with a follow up phone call "Don't do that to me, I can't be responsible for what might happen to your kids on the street" :shock: :roll: :cry: :x

Parental-paranoia driven by stranger-danger and litigation fears. All of it a load of bollocks!

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Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby human909 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:00 pm

find_bruce wrote:Do you have any data to back-up your opinion.

A good and fair question. I do believe I stated that my belief is based on personal experiences and many other peoples anecdotes. I don't have a more accurate measure available at this time. :idea:

find_bruce wrote: According to the Australian Road Deaths database for 2011-2018:

Vic (average 8.5 per year, 3.3% of total road deaths)
NSW (8.9 & 2.5%) &
Qld (8.4 & 3.3%)
all much the same.

WA (5.1 & 2.9%)
SA (4.3 & 4.4%)
a bit better &

Tas (1.2 & 3.7%)
NT (0.5 & 1.2%) &
ACT (0.7 & 6.9%)
Better still

:? :shock: :roll: Flawed use of data is worse than no data.

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Mububban
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:19 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Mububban » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:45 pm

human909 wrote:When I was 9 I was catching two busses to get to school. My range around my house on the bike was probably around 3-4km. I didn't have a boundary.


My only limit was "be back by 5pm or you're grounded." I got grounded a couple of times by leaving it too long to leave my mate's house, I've never been a sprinter :D
When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

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