Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

fat and old
Posts: 3683
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby fat and old » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:03 pm

Scintilla wrote:Parental-paranoia driven by stranger-danger and litigation fears. All of it a load of bollocks!


It is the black and white, no other option other than mine attitude that makes posts like these worthless. Sure, it's a one in a hundred/thousand/million chance that something bad will happen. But it can. Not recognising that is as bad as over doing the protection.

independence is one of the best things you can equipe your kids for the future.


Have to agree, with a caveat. My boys were much the same, either walking (primary) or riding (secondary until it wasn't cool :lol: ) to school. We packed the oldest off to Japan for a few months when he was 14 on student exchange. The youngest would wander off for hours with his mate and their dogs. But I always checked things for myself before letting them. Having a known peadophile for a principal in secondary school (me), living not far from 70 + 80 kmh roads, various other things had me looking first, rather than asking questions later. Different strokes for different folks. They weren't as adventerous as I was in their teens (I'd ride regularly out to Kinglake West and camp overnight at 15) but were much more "world" experienced than me in their 20's.

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 4286
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Thoglette » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:57 pm

baabaa wrote:Rose coloured glasses about all things Holland help ( being ½ Dutch I can say that as they really do know how to bs and spin people, and then laugh as they get away with it....)

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/07/e ... ince-2014/

Thanks for the link. If you speak Dutch, can you check the translation? (as the article's logic has some holes in it as written)

Remind us again, what are the per-capita road death rates?
2017
Australia road deaths 1250 in 25,014,400 (49.8 pm down from 265.9 pm in '75)
Dutch road deaths 610 in 17,132,911 (35.6 pm )

I was aware that e-bikes have been increasingly prominent in accident, injury and death rate in the NL. Which is reflected in the article you reference. Someone else posted a Dutch news link which claimed that older men were over represented in the e-bike accidents due to the unfamilar high speeds. YMMV and I don't have the link

Now, playing with some rough numbers for cycling:

Australia claimed bike use is 2.75hrs pp so allowing 6 days of half hour trips per week per person, the modal share is under 1% or 95,000 equivalent travellers. (Bum pluck but there's really no good data and this is in the right order of magnitude). Bitre says 39 cyclists died in 2017

NL, what 98% participation with a modal share of 27% or 450,000 equivalent travellers (again, "ish")

If we take these numbers at face value these come out to roughly similar numbers: with the Dutch numbers being worse but by less than the inaccuracy of the numbers above.

For those interested in how the Dutch "achieved an 80% reduction in the number of cyclists killed (predominantly bicycle–motor vehicle crashes) per billion bicycle kilometres over a thirty year period." have a read of the article below.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3515001472
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Scintilla
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Scintilla » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:27 pm

Thoglette wrote:Someone else posted a Dutch news link which claimed that older men were over represented in the e-bike accidents due to the unfamilar high speeds.

European e-bikes power-off at 25 kmh, so this "unfamiliar high speeds" idea seems rather spurious. I know that most Dutch people ride at about 15 kmh, but 25 kmh is not really that terribly high. The Dutch do have a base-level standard of 'moped' which is higher powered, able to ride up to 40-50 kmh I think with no pedals, just a low-powered scooter, and requires only a light helmet (in contrast to scooters). Maybe it is riders in this category that are getting grouped as 'e-bike deaths' in the data.

Jmuzz
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Jmuzz » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:48 pm

Scintilla wrote:European e-bikes power-off at 25 kmh, so this "unfamiliar high speeds" idea seems rather spurious.


Ive seen plenty of comments around the place that many models are trivial to bypass the speed restriction.

Plus they do have that higher power version.
And like here it is very easy to get an unrestricted bike or DIY bolt on motor and very hard for police to detect power violations.



Scintilla
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Scintilla » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:23 pm

In addition to regular pedelecs, 'speed pedelecs' have been on the market for some time now, and they can travel a lot faster. From 1 January 2017 the speed pedelec is categorized as a moped, which means that helmet use is now also mandatory for speed pedelec riders and they must now use the combined cycle/moped path or the roadway. Research has not yet made clear which place on the road is most suitable for speed pedelecs: the roadway or the cycle path. It is clear, however, that the speed pedelec is not homogeneous with other traffic, both on the cycle path and on the roadway, in terms of speed (and mass on the roadway). This can lead to potentially dangerous situations on both locations.


What I was saying. Grouping mopeds ('speed pedelecs' aka mopeds) with regular pedelecs (e-bikes) in the data.

We do not have this here in Australia. And I am dubious as to what type of pedelec the older men of Amsterdam are riding there. Are they really speed-freaks at 80 yo?

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 4286
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. Yes it can be emulated everywhere

Postby Thoglette » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:47 pm

Scintilla wrote:And I am dubious as to what type of pedelec the older men of Amsterdam are riding there. Are they really speed-freaks at 80 yo?


Read the links.
fat and old wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/older-men-using-e-bikes-behind-rising-death-toll-among-dutch-cyclists
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/09/m ... therlands/

Selected quotes
"Since 2014, at least 79 people have been killed in road accidents while using an e-bike, of whom 87% were over the age of 60, police figures show"

"The number of e-bike victims among men went from 20 in 2016 to 38 in 2017. Of those men aged over 65, the number of e-bike deaths doubled, from 15 in 2016 to 31 in 2017."
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Scintilla
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. Yes it can be emulated everywhere

Postby Scintilla » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:08 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Scintilla wrote:And I am dubious as to what type of pedelec the older men of Amsterdam are riding there. Are they really speed-freaks at 80 yo?


Read the links.

You are missing my point. Were they really riding pedelecs (aka e-bikes)?? Were they riding speed-pedelecs? Or were they actually riding mopeds?

None of that is made very clear.

fat and old
Posts: 3683
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby fat and old » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:21 am

https://trustednaturalhealth.com/older- ... ke-deaths/

Dutch police are warning older cyclists of the dangers of switching to electric bikes after an increase in the number of deaths on the roads.
Figures released this week show that more people are being killed in the Netherlands while riding an electric bike than a moped, and nearly 90% were aged 60 or above.


Van Hasselt said: “It would be good if more people follow a course. Because the e-bike is not a regular bike. It gives you an extra boost, and that sometimes happens unexpectedly. As a result, you can tremble, swing and sometimes even fall.
“On the bike path you used to be [with] just like-minded people, people at the same pace. But now we see e-bikes, ordinary bikes, superfast electric bikes and bicycles. In short, it has become more dangerous. Wear a helmet, especially if you are older.


This report seems to differentiate between the three.

Interesting, from the already referred to Dutch news link, same spokesman

The death toll is ‘very worrying,’ police spokesman Egbert-Jan van Hasselt, who heads a road safety team, told the AD. ‘People are staying active for longer and are more likely to go for an e-bike. But unfortunately, some of them lack the skills to control them.’
Van Hasselt says people should take a course in using an e-bike. ‘They are not a normal bike,’ he said. ‘They give you and extra boost and sometimes that happens when you don’t expect it.’ In addition, older users should wear a helmet, Van Hasselt said.


And from the Guardian link

Peter van der Knaap, director of the Dutch Road Safety Research Foundation, said older men were too confident in their ability not only to cycle at the speeds e-bikes make possible but also to mount or dismount the bike in the first place.
“We know that simple accidents, including fatalities, can often be attributed to bad road surface,” Van der Knaap said. “We should not underestimate how many accidents happen among the elderly when getting on and off an e-bike. Such a bicycle is heavier than a regular one. Sometimes the problem starts because some older people do not take into account that their own physical possibilities are reduced.”


No one likes to admit that they're losing abilities, but I can see truth there. And it has nothing to do with speed.

And from

http://holland-cycling.com/blog/110-hig ... ths-part-1

More accidents
In recent years Holland has seen a growing number of cycling accidents, mostly involving only one cyclist. This increase is greatest among elderly cyclists. The e-bike, which allows elderly cyclists to ride more and faster too, is thought to be to blame.
“It’s ideal! We are in our eighties, but thanks to our e-bikes, we can still enjoy 45-km rides,” an elderly couple I came across last summer proudly told me.


Apparently elderly people using e-bikes contributes to traffic safety on the cycle paths, because they can now reach an average speed of 18,7 km/h, which fits in well with the average speed of other cyclists. Less overtaking means less chance of accidents. Unfortunately, this positive aspect is counteracted by the fact that seeing elderly people peddling slowly in an upright position does not suggest speed, which is misleading for other road users - they simply don’t expect them to be going as fast as they are.
But there is more bad news. Most e-bikes are much heavier (9 kg = 50%) than conventional bikes. This makes them more difficult to handle for cyclists who are physically more vulnerable (for women more so than for men). The main problem areas seem to be: keeping balance when getting on and off the bike, keeping control in bends and avoiding objects such as posts. These issues apply to all elderly cyclists, but the number of accidents increases when riding faster on a heavier e-bike. And when accidents happen, the injuries are greater. Unfortunately, as soon as you become physically more vulnerable - and therefore need the extra peddle power most - your e-bike might well land you in hospital.


:)

Scintilla
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Scintilla » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:02 pm

So are they considering introducing helmets and licences for older people riding mobility scooters? These involve higher risks, and the possibility of erratic control/behaviour.

fat and old
Posts: 3683
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby fat and old » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:15 pm

Google is your friend :)

https://www.swov.nl/en

For all enquiries (such as yours),

Contact

Are you a journalist with a question for SWOV? Looking for a researcher who can give an explanation or interpretation in the media? You can reach our public relations department via persvoorlichting@swov.nl or via +31-70-3173318. In addition, our fact sheets provide you with topical information about the main road safety issues.

For general questions you can reach us via +31-70-3173333 or info@swov.nl. You can find specific SWOV-researchers via Collaborate under Experts.

Stay informed

Let us keep you informed about our activities:
Subscribe to our newsletter
Follow us on Twitter
Subscribe to our RSS feeds for news and factsheets.

Visiting address:
Bezuidenhoutseweg 62
2594 AW The Hague

Postal address:
PO Box 93113
2509 AC The Hague
The Netherlands

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13271
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:55 pm

Mod Note: A post was removed and reports also express concern about the direction and tone of this thread.

In the rules we ask to refrain from discussion certain topics (e.g. sexuality, politics, religion, etc) because these can be divisive and so that the values held by individuals are not the subject of discussion and disagreement... because this is a forum about bikes and cycling and because it is more productive to discuss elsewhere in the appropriate forums or channels.

In the context of this thread, sometimes it is a reference or relationship between 'sensitive' topics which is can trigger unintended reactions. The challenge is to be sensitive to this while posting and generally avoiding (non-cycling) topics that polarise.

On top of that.. be nice. Starts with a smile :)

Christopher

User avatar
Thoglette
Posts: 4286
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby Thoglette » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:48 pm

Relighting the topic, I ran across this article, which discusses the history of how the Dutch ended up where they are.

No helmets, no problem: how the Dutch created a casual biking culture
A chat with the authors of a new book on cycling in the Netherlands.
By David Roberts@drvoxdavid@vox.com Aug 28, 2018, 2:00pm EDT

Chris Bruntlett wrote:So their status as a cycling nation wasn’t always a given. It took a lot of hard work, a certain degree of stubbornness, and forward-thinking politicians to get where they are. And even then, you know, the margins were really, really tight.


It also underlines that the Dutch understand the difference between "sports riding" (wielrenners aka MAMILs ) and someone "just riding" (fietsers).
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

User avatar
DrShifty
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:58 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: Netherlands Cycling. The myth that it can be emulated everywhere "if the government has the backbone".

Postby DrShifty » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:13 pm

NASHIE wrote:
human909 wrote:
baabaa wrote:It is just BS that parents will stop kids doing good things just because they are scared. Scouts and cub group numbers across Aust are now re growing just because parents want the kiddies pressed to do different and somewhat borderline "unsafe" stuff.

BS? I think your own word offer some evidence against that. The club groups that "re growing" are doing from a shrunken base while population has grown significantly.

And many parents that are encouraging their kids to "to do different and somewhat borderline "unsafe" stuff" are still driving them too and from said activities. The notion of letting you kids loose on the streets and in local parks still is far from what it used to be like.


My son did a very short stint in scouts about 5 yrs ago and the change from the 80s to now i can only put down to red tape, insurance etc.
80s was jump in the back of a parents milk truck and drive 4 hours south for a weekend of caveing sleeping under a tarp. 2013....once finish filling in a 10 page form leave your kid to sleep in the hall and play pin the tail on the donkey. Don't know what happened in the 20yrs in-between.


I'm with Nashie on the point about parents pulling kids back from what they see as unsafe, and riding bikes is only one of them.

Funnily enough I used to be a Scout Leader back in the late 1960s - early 70s and one of our Scouts of that time is prolific on this forum - say 'Hi!' Clydesdale Scot. :)

For a time I worked for a bakery and drove the bread van home each night. The boys all wanted to get a lift home in the van (yep, piled in where the bread would be the next morning) because it smelled delicious. The other leader at one point had a big 1960s Pontiac or Belaire or similar that could squeeze a dozen kids in. Our policy was to get the boys out for one weekend each month and the permission slip was little more than the parents saying, 'Yep, Bob tells me he'll be away again this weekend. signed: Bob's Mum'. '

When my son was Scout age, 1990s, I went back as a Leader again. The restrictions on what we could do were extraordinary. Unfortunately, both those scout groups have since closed up.

On the other hand, when I was a Scout back in the early 1960s we'd head off for weekends without leaders at all. And we'd ride bikes from where I lived in Condobolin to Forbes for the weekend with no parents in sight.

One of my weekly group rides these days takes us past a few schools, and kids on bikes are a noticeable minimum, and that's along a bike path. I'm not in conversation with kids much any more, but I am with parents. Many of them see bike riding as just another way for kids to get injured, and compounded because it gives the kids a way to get out of sight too easily - 'Who knows where they'll end up?' These parents are those who's schooling was punctuated by that caravan with the giraffe and its talk of stranger danger.

If parents have no 'bike mind' then I imagine any desire the kids have to ride around town will be dismissed. This is one of the things operating against having bike roads, Netherlands style, here in Oz.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bennoz, fat and old, nickobec, Sparx