Still more parking?

opik_bidin
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Still more parking?

Postby opik_bidin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:03 pm

I stumbled across this article at SMH:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/dea ... 4zwv5.html

Then came on this paragraph :
While the building's owner is believed to be hoping for a rezoning will allow an apartment development on the site and the company is already outgrowing the shop, Bossi thinks the plans to redevelop Parramatta Road that include new bike paths could encourage him to stay in the strip after his two-year lease expires.

and this:

He believes the area needs more parking and more vibrant businesses, possibly centring on eating and drinking.
--------------

Which brings to the point that parking is actually killing cities and business as it you make car as the king.

I thought that anyone related to cycling, especially bicycle shop owners should know that if they want active and public transport to go up, then private automobile must be limited. And how do you get more parking around parramatta rd if not by eating up the spaces for other buildings?

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g-boaf
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:28 pm

opik_bidin wrote:Which brings to the point that parking is actually killing cities and business as it you make car as the king.


Most bike shops like parking to be near their shops. Most of them I know have parking nearby or they have their own off street parking. People bringing in a damaged bike for instance like the ability to park near the shop. Or someone picking up a couple of bikes.

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Thoglette
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby Thoglette » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:32 pm

opik_bidin wrote:He believes the area needs more parking

I don't know if I still have it (nup) but a recent paper I read (surveying restaurant owners and customers) indicates that business owners are a bit like emergency room doctors: they have a skewed view of reality.

Specifically, they significantly overestimate the importance of parking on their business. By extension, they equally underestimate all other forms of transport.

And, every time, the important bit is always "free" (or "affordable") parking - that is, parking that someone else is paying for.

Of course, this is all "news". Not. See Shoup, D. 1997 "The high cost of free parking" Journal of Planning Education and Research vol. 17, pp. 3-20 (1997)
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Thoglette
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby Thoglette » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:38 pm

g-boaf wrote: or they have their own off street parking.

Apples. We're talking about oranges. And the balance between sugar laden fruit and the rest of the diet.

Think about it for a minute or two.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

opik_bidin
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby opik_bidin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:58 pm

g-boaf wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:Which brings to the point that parking is actually killing cities and business as it you make car as the king.


Most bike shops like parking to be near their shops. Most of them I know have parking nearby or they have their own off street parking. People bringing in a damaged bike for instance like the ability to park near the shop. Or someone picking up a couple of bikes.


That is the case of all regarding parking and automobiles.

Everyone wants to have it, everyone once to use it to its maximum ability, everyone wants to able to park near their destination.

Problem is, if everyone does have and use the car, then we have a problem regarding roads and parking. it goes like this:

we need more parking, then we tear a building/place/park and replace it with parking, we need more and wider roads, so we tear down building/place/park. This process is repeated, and in the end, the city which is scarred by roads and parking is not worthy a visit and just becomes a place where cars pass by, with people going further and further away (the urban sprawl)

In Sydney we see it anyway, the west Connex project and people living in Blue mountains, Newcastle and Wollongong and work in Sydney CBD.

so how to solve the problem? Isn't this why we have cycling advocacy? because we want to be in a sensible and good environment for cycling? we want walkable places and good public transport. public transport that accomodate those with cycles (including recumbent hand cycles).

and less cars means less danger/pollution for cyclists

It is also strange as the more cars that Parramatta road get, it becomes more unpleasant to walk, people can't cross road easily and the air is dirty.

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antigee
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby antigee » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:21 pm

moved to Melbourne from the UK 5 years or so ago took me a month or so to realise that behind or near most shopping streets in the SE suburbs there where car parking lots usually free - this sort of surprised as I'd seen so many drivers driving around doing U turns and blocking roads waiting for an on street park

anecdote aside recent Melbourne as in City of Melbourne rather than greater Melbourne report has some interesting points

https://participate.melbourne.vic.gov.a ... ar-parking

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g-boaf
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:36 pm

opik_bidin wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:Which brings to the point that parking is actually killing cities and business as it you make car as the king.


Most bike shops like parking to be near their shops. Most of them I know have parking nearby or they have their own off street parking. People bringing in a damaged bike for instance like the ability to park near the shop. Or someone picking up a couple of bikes.


That is the case of all regarding parking and automobiles.

Everyone wants to have it, everyone once to use it to its maximum ability, everyone wants to able to park near their destination.

Problem is, if everyone does have and use the car, then we have a problem regarding roads and parking. it goes like this:

we need more parking, then we tear a building/place/park and replace it with parking, we need more and wider roads, so we tear down building/place/park. This process is repeated, and in the end, the city which is scarred by roads and parking is not worthy a visit and just becomes a place where cars pass by, with people going further and further away (the urban sprawl)

In Sydney we see it anyway, the west Connex project and people living in Blue mountains, Newcastle and Wollongong and work in Sydney CBD.

so how to solve the problem? Isn't this why we have cycling advocacy? because we want to be in a sensible and good environment for cycling? we want walkable places and good public transport. public transport that accomodate those with cycles (including recumbent hand cycles).

and less cars means less danger/pollution for cyclists

It is also strange as the more cars that Parramatta road get, it becomes more unpleasant to walk, people can't cross road easily and the air is dirty.


Well, I offset those types. I commute by bike almost all the time. I've not used public transport or other types of transport in a long while. About 45-50km per weekday. Then 160-200km on the weekend.

I ride regardless, advocacy or not.

How about you?

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queequeg
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby queequeg » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:10 am

opik_bidin wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:Which brings to the point that parking is actually killing cities and business as it you make car as the king.


Most bike shops like parking to be near their shops. Most of them I know have parking nearby or they have their own off street parking. People bringing in a damaged bike for instance like the ability to park near the shop. Or someone picking up a couple of bikes.


That is the case of all regarding parking and automobiles.

Everyone wants to have it, everyone once to use it to its maximum ability, everyone wants to able to park near their destination.

Problem is, if everyone does have and use the car, then we have a problem regarding roads and parking. it goes like this:

we need more parking, then we tear a building/place/park and replace it with parking, we need more and wider roads, so we tear down building/place/park. This process is repeated, and in the end, the city which is scarred by roads and parking is not worthy a visit and just becomes a place where cars pass by, with people going further and further away (the urban sprawl)

In Sydney we see it anyway, the west Connex project and people living in Blue mountains, Newcastle and Wollongong and work in Sydney CBD.

so how to solve the problem? Isn't this why we have cycling advocacy? because we want to be in a sensible and good environment for cycling? we want walkable places and good public transport. public transport that accomodate those with cycles (including recumbent hand cycles).

and less cars means less danger/pollution for cyclists

It is also strange as the more cars that Parramatta road get, it becomes more unpleasant to walk, people can't cross road easily and the air is dirty.


It's called "The Arrogance of Space".

This is a good little Blog entry from Copenhangenize, particularly about how ridicuously cheaply we give away public space to parking motor vehicles. It's the same here in Sydney, with an On-Street Residential PArking scheme essentially giving away expensive land to residents who bought cars knowing they had nowhere "off street" to park them (or their boat, caravan etc etc)

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2017/05/ar ... -hans.html
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Thoglette
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby Thoglette » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:20 pm

opik_bidin wrote:so how to solve the problem?

It's called "urban planning" and it has been utterly toxic, politically, especially in NSW, for the last three decades.

To the point that many of the young folk of today (and a bunch of older people who should know better) think that the status quo is the way things always are. Or actually re-invent the past to justify their decisions (and I specifically call out Mr Abbot's "stick to our knitting" as being beyond deceptive)

Note that the "status quo" as supported for the last few decades has been to use the pubic purse to build roads (and sewage and water) to chase after the developer's latest outer-urban get-rich-quick scheme (rezoning rural land into housing) while bemoaning as "waste" any monies spent on other transport types.

The key trick of road building is to do it incrementally: every state's road building bureaucracy has this worked out. And so we're always "fixing" the roads. Well, not so much fixing as extending and making them bigger.

For example, the WA Gov't spend on new and improved roads (MRD 2017 capital spend $1.6B) is twice their entire contribution to pubic transport (PTA govt contribution $800M).

The "free" parking issue's already been noted: most all of us work or live in a building with mandated or market demanded parking (that two car garage) More capital tied up but not brought to book.

Then we can start adding the maintenance costs of the roads (about another $1B in WA, as best I can tell between MRD and councils) plus the costs for, what, 1/3rd (IIRC) of all hospital beds .

(To get national figures, add a zero. NSW/Vic are roughly 3x WA, or there abouts.)

So, we're not-planning to spend all this and more. And not-planning to make our suburbs look like this (Houston, Katy Freeway)
Image
Oh, and count the actual numbers of vehicles. Remembering that they're almost all single occupant. Think about the value of the land being chewed up by that freeway (at CBD prices). And they say rail (and planning) is expensive?

And, as some wit said: "the photo that explains almost everything", updated by Tobias Kretz of the PTV group, (See here)
Image
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opik_bidin
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby opik_bidin » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:55 pm

g-boaf wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
Most bike shops like parking to be near their shops. Most of them I know have parking nearby or they have their own off street parking. People bringing in a damaged bike for instance like the ability to park near the shop. Or someone picking up a couple of bikes.


That is the case of all regarding parking and automobiles.

Everyone wants to have it, everyone once to use it to its maximum ability, everyone wants to able to park near their destination.

Problem is, if everyone does have and use the car, then we have a problem regarding roads and parking. it goes like this:

we need more parking, then we tear a building/place/park and replace it with parking, we need more and wider roads, so we tear down building/place/park. This process is repeated, and in the end, the city which is scarred by roads and parking is not worthy a visit and just becomes a place where cars pass by, with people going further and further away (the urban sprawl)

In Sydney we see it anyway, the west Connex project and people living in Blue mountains, Newcastle and Wollongong and work in Sydney CBD.

so how to solve the problem? Isn't this why we have cycling advocacy? because we want to be in a sensible and good environment for cycling? we want walkable places and good public transport. public transport that accomodate those with cycles (including recumbent hand cycles).

and less cars means less danger/pollution for cyclists

It is also strange as the more cars that Parramatta road get, it becomes more unpleasant to walk, people can't cross road easily and the air is dirty.


Well, I offset those types. I commute by bike almost all the time. I've not used public transport or other types of transport in a long while. About 45-50km per weekday. Then 160-200km on the weekend.

I ride regardless, advocacy or not.

How about you?


so you're boasting you're those small percentage of people who ride in harsh conditions no matter what. Guess what, I'm similar. 26 km/day on weekdays, and around 50-100 km on weekends,

Thing is, I care for other people, who want to ride their bikes safely, who doesn't have the skills, who don't know how to navigate in traffic and avoid danger on the roads, who shriek and screams whenever an automobile passes them.

And extending it further, I also care for other people whose is less unfortunate in their income but with the conditions Sydney (and probably other aussie cities) is doing now, will be forced to have and use a car to get a job and transport and also the people who had and will have their houses taken away from them

How about you?

1Rowdy1
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby 1Rowdy1 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:02 pm

Building road / parking = votes, irrelevant to pollies if it is for the greater good or not.

opik_bidin
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby opik_bidin » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:33 pm

1Rowdy1 wrote:Building road / parking = votes, irrelevant to pollies if it is for the greater good or not.


I don't think that's the case in Sydney anymore. With the West Connex project, with it's derivatives, many have turned, the inner west, western Sydney, South Sydney, and probably north Sydney if North Connex is given a go.

I think Melbourne also has that with the east link.

It really pits the inner city with the outer people.

This is something that should be known, especially for a Bicycle Shop Owner, who still thinks the business destroyer of Parramatta Road will actually revive it.

You can actually do a little calculation, calculate how much people are in sydney, then time it with the surface a car takes, then compare it to the road surface Sydney have. it is unsustainable to have every individual using a car

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g-boaf
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby g-boaf » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:33 pm

opik_bidin wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:
That is the case of all regarding parking and automobiles.

Everyone wants to have it, everyone once to use it to its maximum ability, everyone wants to able to park near their destination.

Problem is, if everyone does have and use the car, then we have a problem regarding roads and parking. it goes like this:

we need more parking, then we tear a building/place/park and replace it with parking, we need more and wider roads, so we tear down building/place/park. This process is repeated, and in the end, the city which is scarred by roads and parking is not worthy a visit and just becomes a place where cars pass by, with people going further and further away (the urban sprawl)

In Sydney we see it anyway, the west Connex project and people living in Blue mountains, Newcastle and Wollongong and work in Sydney CBD.

so how to solve the problem? Isn't this why we have cycling advocacy? because we want to be in a sensible and good environment for cycling? we want walkable places and good public transport. public transport that accomodate those with cycles (including recumbent hand cycles).

and less cars means less danger/pollution for cyclists

It is also strange as the more cars that Parramatta road get, it becomes more unpleasant to walk, people can't cross road easily and the air is dirty.


Well, I offset those types. I commute by bike almost all the time. I've not used public transport or other types of transport in a long while. About 45-50km per weekday. Then 160-200km on the weekend.

I ride regardless, advocacy or not.

How about you?


so you're boasting you're those small percentage of people who ride in harsh conditions no matter what. Guess what, I'm similar. 26 km/day on weekdays, and around 50-100 km on weekends,

Thing is, I care for other people, who want to ride their bikes safely, who doesn't have the skills, who don't know how to navigate in traffic and avoid danger on the roads, who shriek and screams whenever an automobile passes them.

And extending it further, I also care for other people whose is less unfortunate in their income but with the conditions Sydney (and probably other aussie cities) is doing now, will be forced to have and use a car to get a job and transport and also the people who had and will have their houses taken away from them

How about you?


You were sort of trying to paint me as some proponent of car drivers and car parking - and I simply pointed out otherwise.

I never used to like riding on roads either and still don't like it that much. But other riders showed me the way and I'd do the same for other people. Advocacy groups can advocate all they want, but it is practical measures like those that really help.

I'm also one of those outer Sydney people who has done the long distance travel to work for a long time. The worst being around 2 hours each way. At that time, it was two buses and a train. Miserable yes, but it was a job.

I'm struggling to see what having houses taken away from people has got to do with car parking outside boutique bike shops on Parramatta Road?

Roads and tunnels are vote winners, simple as that. Bicycles don't win votes. Building a sports facilities for the local junior rugby team, that's a winner. Local community loves it. The proud hard working families will think you are a hero. Build infrastructure for bicycle riders? I could run negative spin on that and destroy any plans for that very easily.

It will take a very determined government to simply say, we are doing this regardless of criticism.

Sydney to be honest isn't that bad, it has some reasonable bicycle infrastructure, it's just not properly linked up to make a proper network. Put in the missing links and you are just about done.

opik_bidin
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby opik_bidin » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:52 pm

g-boaf wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:
g-boaf wrote:




You were sort of trying to paint me as some proponent of car drivers and car parking - and I simply pointed out otherwise.

I never used to like riding on roads either and still don't like it that much. But other riders showed me the way and I'd do the same for other people. Advocacy groups can advocate all they want, but it is practical measures like those that really help.

I'm also one of those outer Sydney people who has done the long distance travel to work for a long time. The worst being around 2 hours each way. At that time, it was two buses and a train. Miserable yes, but it was a job.

I'm struggling to see what having houses taken away from people has got to do with car parking outside boutique bike shops on Parramatta Road?

Roads and tunnels are vote winners, simple as that. Bicycles don't win votes. Building a sports facilities for the local junior rugby team, that's a winner. Local community loves it. The proud hard working families will think you are a hero. Build infrastructure for bicycle riders? I could run negative spin on that and destroy any plans for that very easily.

It will take a very determined government to simply say, we are doing this regardless of criticism.



Vehicular cycling that you described st UK and USA cycling back while the Netherlands advocated with their separate and protected infrastructure.

City of Sydney's leadership in building proper cycling lanes, is attracting more cyclists than your "practical" cycling measure.

The bicycle lane is a vote winner, while West Connex and Stadium knock down and rebuilding are vote destroyers.

You build more parking around Parramatta Rd by destroying the other buildings around your shop, as you want more cars parking so you can't take the lane from the road. buildings that house people

Jmuzz
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:58 pm

opik_bidin wrote:You build more parking around Parramatta Rd by destroying the other buildings around your shop,


That's basically the Parramatta road frontage shops real problem.
Old, too small, no onsite parking.

Needs a bulldozer through the lot of them and rebuild new complexes which pay for their own onsite parking instead of continuing to exist as rundown blight expecting government to wave a magic wand and fix the area with free parking.

The whole strip value would boom if all the blight was just bulldozed overnight and the whole area was empty field with huge potential.

opik_bidin
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby opik_bidin » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:24 am

Jmuzz wrote:
opik_bidin wrote:You build more parking around Parramatta Rd by destroying the other buildings around your shop,


That's basically the Parramatta road frontage shops real problem.
Old, too small, no onsite parking.

Needs a bulldozer through the lot of them and rebuild new complexes which pay for their own onsite parking instead of continuing to exist as rundown blight expecting government to wave a magic wand and fix the area with free parking.

The whole strip value would boom if all the blight was just bulldozed overnight and the whole area was empty field with huge potential.


Newtown area around king st seem to be doing a bit better. why? they have a narrower road. and onsite parking, which limits the speed of cars going through.

you can't revive Parramatta Rd by buldozing

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Thoglette
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby Thoglette » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:58 am

opik_bidin wrote:you can't revive Parramatta Rd by buldozing


This is Parramatta road's problem:
Image
Regional travel demand: A euphemism for unsustainable car trips Ian Lockwood APR. 22, 2016

As Mr Lockwood points out, the assumption in the Anglosphere for the last half century has been that the suburbs, and by extension, the entirety of city growth, could be supported by the private motorcar, with a token supply of buses for school students and other undesirables.

While there were always a few "wonks" (or worse, rabid troskyites) who rejected this view even in it's hey-day (between Beeching and Keating/Kennet) it is now generally considered as a failed strategy by the bulk of the planning profession.

Unfortunately there's lots of money to be made and bureaucratic careers in building Roads. Which results in demands that problems are "fixed", with associated ribbon cutting opportunities.
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Thoglette
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby Thoglette » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:29 pm

Quote of the day, from Rivendell

"A craze for building reigns like an epidemic: the tide of houses rises as we look, overflowing the barriers, invading the suburbs, and making its first assault on the outworks of the city's fortifications. Can we stop this fever, this mania for piling stone on stone?" - Edmond Texier, 1852
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

fat and old
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby fat and old » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:31 pm

"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Cicero, circa 43BC

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Howzat
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Re: Still more parking?

Postby Howzat » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:57 am

g-boaf wrote:Roads and tunnels are vote winners, simple as that.


Pollies don't build roads for votes. They build them for the benefit of connected developers whose apartment blocks they make more valuable. Ask Salim Mehajer how this works.
Or Harry Triguboff, on whose behalf George St in the Sydney CBD has been closed for a year and a half.

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Re: Still more parking?

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:21 am

Howzat wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Roads and tunnels are vote winners, simple as that.


Pollies don't build roads for votes. They build them for the benefit of connected developers whose apartment blocks they make more valuable. Ask Salim Mehajer how this works.
Or Harry Triguboff, on whose behalf George St in the Sydney CBD has been closed for a year and a half.

I thought Sydney CBD closed when the lockout laws were applied. :lol: (along with Kings Cross, Newtown, etc. ...)

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