Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

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Thoglette
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Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby Thoglette » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:41 pm

El Pais: Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish traffic from center
Madrid 5 OCT 2018 - 13:30 CEST
MIGUEL ÁNGEL MEDINA wrote: Madrid City Council is set to approve a new Sustainable Mobility Ordinance that will change the way residents move around public spaces.

The new measures, which will take effect between five and 15 days after the council approves them on Friday, introduce a speed limit of 30km/h on all one-way streets and on single-lane two-way streets.

Under the new rules, motorcycles will not be allowed to park on sidewalks less than three meters wide or near pedestrian crossings. Bicycles will be able to make right [left] turns at red lights where indicated. And new traffic restrictions will go into effect in the downtown area on November 23.

New speed limits
Besides the 30km/h limit on one-way streets and single-lane two-way streets, the city will slow traffic down to 20km/h on streets where the sidewalk is not elevated above road level, such as in the neighborhoods of Lavapiés and Chueca. The 30km/h rule will affect 80% of Madrid’s streets – not just in the downtown area. These measures aim to increase road safety and reduce the chance of accidents involving pedestrians.

Pedestrians
The spirit of the new ordinance is to favor sustainable mobility. New signs will indicate the presence of “Zonas 30,” where pedestrians may cross the street at any spot after checking that they are not running a risk or slowing down traffic. And in “Calles 20,” pedestrians will have priority over vehicles. The city is also planning to roll out more traffic lights with incorporated cameras, and to designate “pedestrian special protection spaces” where neither motorcycles nor bicycles will be allowed to park.

Bicycles
Bicycles will be able to turn right on a red light where so indicated. They may also move against the traffic on residential streets with speed limits of 20km/h or under, and on shared-use lanes. The 30km/h speed limit on many streets also seeks to favor shared road space between motorists and cyclists. The latter will also be allowed to lock their bikes to street furniture as long as they don’t block the way for pedestrians.
Some other restrictions on parking of cars and motorcycles. No general repeal of "jay walking" laws but I suspect they're not enforced either.
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uart
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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby uart » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:49 pm

LOL, the motoring lobby would stark raving bat crap crazy if they tried that here. :D

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby antigee » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:21 pm

uart wrote:LOL, the motoring lobby would stark raving bat crap crazy if they tried that here. :D
if it was the RACV they wouldn't be able to put together a response that would stand up to scrutiny - according to them reducing the speed limit to 30km/hr is the same as reducing the average speed to 30km/hr - can only assume this is based on drivers not slowing or stopping for intersections, traffic lights or out of consideration for other road users :shock: Need to realise that significant number of drivers react to congestion by driving at legally permitted but dangerous to others speeds in between being stationary

RACV Magazine Oct 2018:

Image

Interesting article on impact in Bristol, UK (population 0.5m) that has had very extensive 20mph speed limits for some time:

"Bristol 20mph zones: Four lives a year saved, study finds"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-43050841

not so long since Melbourne (CBD) Council produced some discussion papers on the topic to have Andrews and opposition state politicians intervene in the press:

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/vict ... 4zmtr.html

Andrews, Guy give thumbs down to Capp's 'ridiculous' CBD traffic plan


"...............Pedestrians would be given priority in Melbourne’s CBD, with the council considering drastic changes including increasing the time pedestrians have to cross at junctions, cutting the speed limit to 30kmh, reducing on-street parking and making fewer streets open to two-way traffic.......

...........‘‘Increasing the level of walking connectivity by 10 per cent would increase the value of the Hoddle Grid economy by $2.1 billion per annum,’’ the council's paper reads."

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby Thoglette » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:58 pm

Madrid restricts traffic in city centre to improve air quality
ABC wrote: Most petrol and diesel cars have been banned from the heart of Madrid as the city tries to improve the air quality in one of Europe's most polluted capitals.
Key points:

The plan has been challenged in court and could be ended before it is fully implemented
There are some exemptions like those for residents of the centre, electric or hybrid vehicles and motorcycles
Police will patrol the area but no fines will be issued during the first few months of the ban

Police patrolled dozens of access points to the almost 5-square-kilometre area of the Spanish capital — including the Gran Via avenue and Puerta del Sol square teeming with tourists — to block all cars except those with exemptions, or that were electric or hybrid powered.

Grinding traffic jams and a lot of older or diesel vehicles, plus a frequently windless dry climate, have contributed to the high levels of nitrogen dioxide in Madrid that have been in violation of European regulations since 2010.
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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby opik_bidin » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:24 am

Just follow this twitter account.

https://twitter.com/20splentyforus

it's promoting and informing that speed limit in cities and high density areas should be 30 kmh~20 MPH

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:03 am

On the Madrid change, one factor worth considering is population density and traffic levels. This isn't an excuse for Australian cities which are young and where urban sprawl defined residential growth... more so about appropriate speeds in urban and dense areas.

Low speed limits can discourage motor traffic - and as they benefit slow traffic, this in turn becomes more convenient and transport develops into links and connections as opposed to a private motor vehicle being the single required link between A and B.

Over time Australian centres will progressively prioritise slow traffic and introduce hubs and connections and one of the fastest ways to reinvigorate a tired town centres is exactly that - pedestrian zones focussed around shopping, gastro and culture.
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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby Thoglette » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:48 pm

AUbicycles wrote: This isn't an excuse for Australian cities which are young and where urban sprawl defined residential growth... more so about appropriate speeds in urban and dense areas.
Agreed.
Particularly as significant parts of our cities (certainly the big four) near the CBD and satellite areas (e.g. Chatswood and surrounds; Scarborough/Innaloo/Glendalough; Auchenflower/Toowong/Indoorroopilly ) are definitely densely populated.

The 1/4 acre block on wide leafy streets is more and more a figment of imagination than reality: new developments are dense enough that there's barely a patch of lawn around the miniature McMansions we're building.
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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby fat and old » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:02 pm

And Madrid goes back again

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... sions-zone

I’ve been watching the election campaign with interest; there were a lot of unhappy people after the new laws were bought in. Looks like it was just another nail in the coffin of the progressive types who get ahead of themselves.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby Thoglette » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:19 pm

fat and old wrote:Looks like it was just another nail in the coffin of the progressive types who get ahead of themselves.
I thought you said you were old?
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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby g-boaf » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:27 pm

fat and old wrote:And Madrid goes back again

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... sions-zone

I’ve been watching the election campaign with interest; there were a lot of unhappy people after the new laws were bought in. Looks like it was just another nail in the coffin of the progressive types who get ahead of themselves.
The article says that residents were happy with the scheme.

Another quote from the article:
The new PP mayor, José Luis Martínez-Almeida, has made good on his threat to “address” the issue of Madrid Central.

From 1 July, the city council will no longer fine people for taking more polluting vehicles into the zone. However, it said the suspension was only temporary and could be reversed.
Can you explain to us why would these right wing types want to reverse that for? I thought they weren't for getting ahead of themselves?

In cities overseas with the lower speed limit zones - it makes getting around no great drama. It's nicer for people on bicycles too. I prefer cities where the motorways have higher speed limits but the local roads have lower speed limits.

But in truth, places like Innsbruck are also no great problem. I've ridden around there even on major main roads and it was easy enough. Riding along Olympiastraße in peak hour. No people beeping at you, no bother. And the little villages all have heavily enforced 30km/h speed limits. You don't dare go faster. Aside from the speed limits and penalties for going faster, the roads aren't that suitable for going more quickly.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby fat and old » Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:58 pm

G-boat, that article refers to the pollution laws, not the 30km/h limit. To my knowledge that’s still there.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:18 pm

fat and old wrote:G-boat, that article refers to the pollution laws, not the 30km/h limit. To my knowledge that’s still there.
Yes. Because breathing in NOx is great for everyone's lungs. :roll: And looking after the health of a city's inhabitants is an concern that only 'progressive types' should care about. :?:

Smog has been a serious issue in Madrid to the point where on some occasions they have had to ban even/odd number plated cars from driving on some days.

I'd like to see the SWMS you'd fill out to ensure a safe workplace in smoggy environments. PPE of gas masks for everyone! (I'm not being facetious. In the EU smog pollution results in early deaths of far more people than all the workplace hazards at workplace.)

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby opik_bidin » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:37 pm

Its all political now. I thought politics and their labels were not allowed?

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby fat and old » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:26 pm

human909 wrote:
fat and old wrote:G-boat, that article refers to the pollution laws, not the 30km/h limit. To my knowledge that’s still there.
Yes. Because breathing in NOx is great for everyone's lungs. :roll:
I thought it was bad?

Seriously, you’re an engineer of sorts yeah? You work on concrete structure design? I work with the stuff, making all sorts of things so that the world is a nice place for you and everyone else. You know of the carcinogenic properties of cement dust I assume? The same for rock dust? No one gives a flying about that, cos there’s no viable alternatives. Just the same old MSDS and SWMS etc. so tell me why I should care about a system that doesn’t care about me or my peers so long as it gets what it wants?

Yeah, I’m all for fairness and a better world. For EVERYONE. Not just the low hanging fruit. Look into those Madrid laws, check what vehicles were being singled out and who and what got exemptions.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby human909 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:31 pm

I sense a chip on a shoulder here....

Really I don't see why we need to turn a discussion about Madrid's efforts to reduce the impact of cars on its city into a political or social class battle.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby opik_bidin » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:02 pm

human909 wrote:I sense a chip on a shoulder here....

Really I don't see why we need to turn a discussion about Madrid's efforts to reduce the impact of cars on its city into a political or social class battle.
Well, if in real world advocacy, it always become political. in most cases (but not all, like Boris Johnson in London proves), more active and public trans and restricting cars are left wing, while promoting cars and restricting active n public trans is right wing.

This aligns as promoting active and public trans means low class people who cant get cars because they are poor or disabled can now go fron A to B. meanwhile right wing with individual freedom rhetoric wants unlimited space for car, their freedom machine.

It also looks at area affected. Usually, suburbs outside the city who uses car more are more right wing while thkse in downtown who favor active and public trans are more left wing.

The impact of letting car more space and ways are also felt more by those in downtown with pollution and congestion, so in a way its a way of f****g the left wing

It happens almost everywhere. New York, Paris, Sydney, Melbourne, Jakarta

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby opik_bidin » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:12 pm

Here is an analysis

https://www.citylab.com/environment/201 ... in/591961/

The reasons are, as you would expect, political. A new three-party coalition will now govern the city, involving a right-wing, a centrist and an extreme-right party. All have previously declared themselves in some form against the car ban introduced by Madrid’s outgoing left-wing mayor, Manuela Carmena.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby fat and old » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:56 am

human909 wrote:I sense a chip on a shoulder here....

Really I don't see why we need to turn a discussion about Madrid's efforts to reduce the impact of cars on its city into a political or social class battle.
Maybe you should research the Gilet Jaunes

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby fat and old » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:43 am

Thoglette wrote:
fat and old wrote:Looks like it was just another nail in the coffin of the progressive types who get ahead of themselves.
I thought you said you were old?
The first book I bought at a school book fair was about what we as humans are doing to this planet in grade 3. I got it cos it had pop ups and other gimmicks, but that booked affected and shaped my attitudes profoundly. I still have it! There’s nothing like an earth ending scenario to get inside a young brain and scare the bejeezus out of it :lol: .

Now, those attitudes are tempered by my life experiences.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby opik_bidin » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:33 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48886405

love this bit
The judge said "the health of Madrid" was more important than "the right to travel by car" and reversed the decision.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the real world: Madrid announces 30kph limits and more

Postby fat and old » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:07 am

:lol: :lol: Good on 'em.

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