A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

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Thoglette
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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby Thoglette » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:09 pm

uart wrote:..something to do with the cyclist somehow touching the guy's car. Presumably due to a close pass by the driver.

You wouldn't want to admit that. It would form evidence that the "left turn" was directed at the cyclist thus changing "reckless driving" into "assault".
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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby Scott_C » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:20 pm

Thoglette wrote:
uart wrote:..something to do with the cyclist somehow touching the guy's car. Presumably due to a close pass by the driver.

You wouldn't want to admit that. It would form evidence that the "left turn" was directed at the cyclist thus changing "reckless driving" into "assault".

Provocation is a defense against an assault charge and operates on the level of an "ordinary person." It would be hard to argue that an "ordinary person" wouldn't try and assault you if you keyed their car.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:03 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:"Touch" is very different from "run a key along".


True. I was saying touch because I've seen similar angry behaviour from drivers from as little as a touch. AKA I've banged on peoples windows as they have tried merge on top of me. Drivers act as though their you've killed their first born child. I've had two people get out of their cars to try to assault me.

I still can't believe that magistrates are not prepared to send a message to people who use their cars as weapons.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:05 pm

Scott_C wrote:It would be hard to argue that an "ordinary person" wouldn't try and assault you if you keyed their car.

Did you mean the double negative. I don't think an ordinary person assaults people for keying a car.

QLD law, but I'd expect VIC isn't too different.
(1) A person is not criminally responsible for an assault committed upon a person who gives the person provocation for the assault, if the person is in fact deprived by the provocation of the power of self-control, and acts upon it on the sudden and before there is time for the person’s passion to cool, and if the force used is not disproportionate to the provocation and is not intended, and is not such as is likely, to cause death or grievous bodily harm.
(2) Whether any particular act or insult is such as to be likely to deprive an ordinary person of the power of self-control and to induce the ordinary person to assault the person by whom the act or insult is done or offered, and whether, in any particular case, the person provoked was actually deprived by the provocation of the power of self-control, and whether any force used is or is not disproportionate to the provocation, are questions of fact.


It is pretty clear that the force used is disproportionate and could likely cause death or grievous bodily harm.


Of course an ordinary motorist....

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby fat and old » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:05 pm

human909 wrote: I don't think an ordinary person assaults people for keying a car.



I'd wager you're wrong. And I'm taking that literally....an ordinary person, not a motorist. The assault could easily turn into battery if the victim is hot headed, stupid or feels they'll win.

Everyone wants to have a go these days....

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby madmacca » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:37 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
human909 wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:If the story is true (and granted that's a big "if"; I'd like to see the full video)

Given the article says he admitted it and was convicted then I'm not sure about the "big if".

It sounds to me that the message being sent out by our courts is that it is ok to deliberately drive your vehicle into somebody if they touch your vehicle beforehand. :?:


"Touch" is very different from "run a key along".

But just clarifying, I'm not saying the cyclist deserved it. I'm saying they were both idiots and both deserved some punishment, and the driver should have received a more severe sentence than he got.


The keying and the bicycle toss into the garden deserve each other - property damage. Deliberately driving a vehicle into someone else is a whole 'nother thing.

Provided you can get the story of about the keying admitted into evidence, then there is no way that a jury is going to believe that swerve is anything but intentional.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:09 pm

The driver has a background;
Mr Giarrusso has had various run ins with the law and had been serving a community corrections order when the incident happened

I'm wondering what actions happened prior to the keying
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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby JPB » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:50 pm

I dunno, if I had damaged some fellas car (not that I would) I would not continue cycling down the road. I would be disappearing very quickly so that I could not be subject to retaliation.
The second story sounds fishy

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby cyclotaur » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:07 pm

This video makes me sick. The poor young guy on the bike clearly has no idea why he’s been deliberately knocked off his bike - he is in temporary shock, probably thinking he must have done something wrong back up the road somewhere.

I doubt he did anything to provoke this other than maybe momentarily inconveniencing the driver. I have sons who ride bikes for transport in inner city areas and I worry about them all the time, with the usual traffic and distracted drivers, much less ‘angry man’ drivers like this going around.

I’m glad the guy was caught and penalised, albeit inadequately. I’m more concerned that the victim here is probably still suffering the after effects psychologically/physically a year later. I hope he is going ok.
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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:07 pm

JPB wrote:I dunno, if I had damaged some fellas car (not that I would) I would not continue cycling down the road. I would be disappearing very quickly so that I could not be subject to retaliation.

Agreed.

If somebody in an expensive 4WD cuts me off and as a consequence their left wing mirror is in my path and collides with me shattering across the road. I am not sticking in a vulnerable position on the road.

Hypothetically of course.... :o

There are several occasions that male pride has made me stand up to road bullies. There have also been several occasions where caution has caused me to retreat away from bullies because they are driving 2tonne vehicles.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby JitterBugs » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:13 pm

Does anyone else think this driver should from driving completely for several years?

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:23 pm

fat and old wrote:I'd wager you're wrong. And I'm taking that literally....an ordinary person, not a motorist. The assault could easily turn into battery if the victim is hot headed, stupid or feels they'll win.

Everyone wants to have a go these days....


Really? Sure there are a minority of nutters out there. But the society I see on the streets avoids physical confrontation, particularly in public.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby NASHIE » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:42 pm

JitterBugs wrote:Does anyone else think this driver should from driving completely for several years?


Yes, i think most of us do mate. Banned from driving that is.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby Cheesewheel » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:04 am

JitterBugs wrote:Does anyone else think this driver should from driving completely for several years?

Doesn't happen in australia.
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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby fat and old » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:00 am

human909 wrote:
JPB wrote:I dunno, if I had damaged some fellas car (not that I would) I would not continue cycling down the road. I would be disappearing very quickly so that I could not be subject to retaliation.

Agreed.

If somebody in an expensive 4WD cuts me off and as a consequence their left wing mirror is in my path and collides with me shattering across the road. I am not sticking in a vulnerable position on the road.

Hypothetically of course.... :o

There are several occasions that male pride has made me stand up to road bullies. There have also been several occasions where caution has caused me to retreat away from bullies because they are driving 2tonne vehicles.


We are in agreement here old mate.

One thing that doesn't sit well is the use of social media, what? 12 months after the incident?, to have a go at the driver. The young bloke is not stupid apparently but that was a bit of a sook move. He clearly hasn't got over it, and is a vindictive little prick. If he knew the blokes address to post it online, why didn't he go round and have a face to face as he came out the door? No worries about being vulnerable on the road then.

Really? Sure there are a minority of nutters out there. But the society I see on the streets avoids physical confrontation, particularly in public.


Maybe I spend more time getting about than you? I see confrontation every day. Ranging from the finger to yelling abuse to shaping up and belting each other or even funnier ramming each other in their cars :lol: I had an old bogan woman yell at me last night in a shopping centre carpark because she cut the corner entering a lane and found me and the 4wd right in front of her. My fault apparently that she had to stomp her brakes. It doesn't take much these days for that to escalate into a few pushes and shoves. Apparently, we're all stressed and in a hurry. For what I dunno….maybe our funerals? :lol:

The driver has a background


Which shows that if you're going to assert yourself you'd best be prepared for the consequences. No point being tough from beneath the wheels of a 3 ton (yeah, those things are closer to 3T than 2) 4wd!

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:24 pm

The irony of the guy who knocked the cyclist off with his motor vehicle is that he risked damaging it by hitting the bike and his issue with the cyclist is that he supposedly damaged his motor vehicle
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby uart » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:04 pm

fat and old wrote:He clearly hasn't got over it, and is a vindictive little prick. If he knew the blokes address to post it online, why didn't he go round and have a face to face as he came out the door? No worries about being vulnerable on the road then.

I'm not entirely sure if he posted the drivers address (maybe he did), or if other internet users looked up the court case and did some detective work to put that out there.

I would love to hear BOTH accounts though (first hand), of the FULL incident.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby AdelaidePeter » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:32 pm

uart wrote:
fat and old wrote:He clearly hasn't got over it, and is a vindictive little prick. If he knew the blokes address to post it online, why didn't he go round and have a face to face as he came out the door? No worries about being vulnerable on the road then.

I'm not entirely sure if he posted the drivers address (maybe he did), or if other internet users looked up the court case and did some detective work to put that out there.

I would love to hear BOTH accounts though (first hand), of the FULL incident.


Assuming the rumours of him vandalising the car are false, I support the cyclist here. He waited until the court case was over, saw that justice was not done, so got his own bit of revenge. He didn't confront the driver face to face because his aim was to shame him, not get into a fist fight.

But if he actually did vandalise the car, then he should have just copped it sweet, because all it also puts more scrutiny on him (the cyclist).

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby uart » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:23 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:Assuming the rumours of him vandalising the car are false,

Yeah, I guess we'll never really know unless we hear both sides, but I suspect that there was some sort of close passing or other intimidation on behalf of the driver, and some sort of retaliatory car touching (whether or not with keys in hand) on behalf of the cyclist. Probably a case of dumb and dumber if I'm being honest.

BTW. Many years ago I worked with "old mate" who cycled to/from work with one of those orange plastic/rubber hand thingies hanging out the side - to show cars what was too close. It used to pee him off no end that some drivers still came too close and brushed by it.

Anyway, he was convinced that it was a good idea to tape a really sharp metal point onto the end of his plastic hand, just as a bit of retribution to cars coming too close. :lol: In the end I convinced him that the liability to pedestrians (and other cyclists) made it a bad idea. But he was really keen on the idea for a while.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby fat and old » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:09 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
Assuming the rumours of him vandalising the car are false, I support the cyclist here. He waited until the court case was over, saw that justice was not done, so got his own bit of revenge. He didn't confront the driver face to face because his aim was to shame him, not get into a fist fight.

But if he actually did vandalise the car, then he should have just copped it sweet, because all it also puts more scrutiny on him (the cyclist).


Why are you assuming? The reporting was quite clear.

University mathematics student Jack McDonnell, 29, admitted to running a key along Michael Giarrusso's Nissan Patrol 4WD as he cycled alongside him in Melbourne's St Kilda.


You reckon the paper flat out lied? And as for shaming, what’s the point in putting the !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! mobile number out there? Community shaming? Is that how it’s done? I’m serious here, I have no idea how or what the accepted moves are in a shaming?

I will admit to a strong initial disliking of the cyclist based solely on the pics of him in that on line story. They did a number on him there! Classic smarmy self righteous green voting prat look.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:20 pm

fat and old wrote:The reporting was quite clear.


Links anyone? If the two were, as they say, "known to each other" or "had a previous altercation" then I'd love to see the magistrate's basis for throwing out the assault charges.
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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby find_bruce » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:38 pm

Thoglette wrote:Links anyone? If the two were, as they say, "known to each other" or "had a previous altercation" then I'd love to see the magistrate's basis for throwing out the assault charges.

Who says the magistrate threw out the assault charges? When a person pleads guilty and the other charges are dismissed, it is almost always the result of a plea bargain where the prosecutor agrees to withdraw the more serious charges. That is what the daily snail suggests, but I wouldn't put too much stock in newspaper reports of the actual details.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby trailgumby » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:06 pm

fat and old wrote:You reckon the paper flat out lied?

The Daily Fail. They're a business whose model is to sell audiences to advertisers. Just look at the rest of their articles in the sidebar links. Do you think they take as much care as, say, the Sydney Morning Herald, which at least appears to take some pride in its independence and thoroughness? Lets just say they handle the truth carelessly.

fat and old wrote:And as for shaming, what’s the point in putting the !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! mobile number out there? Community shaming? Is that how it’s done? I’m serious here, I have no idea how or what the accepted moves are in a shaming?

A guy tried to kill me Anzac Day last year, taking me for a short ride at high G's on the bonnet of his Corolla after deliberately driving into my then-new car and then stealing my phone when I was taking photographs of the evidence. A thousand dollar fine and 18 months driving suspension, reduced to 1 year on appeal. If I had access to the CCTV and his contact details I'd publish them in a flash.

fat and old wrote:I will admit to a strong initial disliking of the cyclist based solely on the pics of him in that on line story. They did a number on him there! Classic smarmy self righteous green voting prat look.
Precisely as intended by the author and editor of the article. Try applying a propaganda model to what you read in the mass media, from any source. I find it quite illuminating.

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Re: A cowards attack on a vulnerable road user

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:23 pm

This article questions as to what happened to result in Jack McDonnell allegedly keying Michael Giarrusso's car

https://road.cc/content/news/251063-more-details-emerge-australian-road-rage-attack-raise-another-question
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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