Giant P-SL0 Wheels
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Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby brisrouleur » Wed May 02, 2012 11:17 pm
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby PawPaw » Wed May 02, 2012 11:51 pm
There's two reasons that might contribute to your advanced wear
- the freehub is a comparatively soft alloy
- the lock ring wasn't tightened to spec (30-50Nm) when you bought it. A tight lock ring holds the sprockets firmly which helps prevent them from digging into the freehub.
You've just given me another reason to avoid Giant bicycles. I know too many people who are breaking spokes on Giant's P-SL range
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby brisrouleur » Thu May 03, 2012 12:07 am
I guess my question is, if the cassette lockring was tightened to spec when the bike store built the bike should I see this kind of damage? Or should I take it back and say 'hey the lockring must have been tightened properly'?
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 12:45 am
Those marks are normal for an alloy freehub.FrugalRouleur wrote:Yeap, Shimano cassette...
I guess my question is, if the cassette lockring was tightened to spec when the bike store built the bike should I see this kind of damage? Or should I take it back and say 'hey the lockring must have been tightened properly'?
Ensure you torque the lockring to 40nm and they won't get much worse, you will get some marks even when using the correct torque but they won't get too bad.
Also understand the freehub has bearings in it which wear and are very difficult to replace, as such most people replace the entire freehub when the bearings are worn out my point being that the body only needs to out-last the bearings.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 12:51 am
Its only the Sram Red that are one piece, the force and rival are seperate pieces just like the Shimano.PawPaw wrote:Looks like you have a shimano cassette. SRAM's are one piece and the sprockets spread the load on the freehub.
We built a bike the other day with latest Sram Red, the inside of the cassette was machined out so much that the contact area on the freehub was very small, only about 10mm of contact for the entire freehub. Will be interesting to see how they hold up but it didn't seem like a very good idea to machine it out so much.
I'll remove the cassette when we service it in a few months to see if its chewing into the freehub.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 1:23 am
I disagree the marks are normal at 2,000km, even on a powertap freehub. I'm even more inclined to believe the lockring wasn't torqued enough. Doubt there's any point complaining to the LBS, seeing FR has already interfered with the torque settings.jacks1071 wrote:Those marks are normal for an alloy freehub.
Thx for correcting me on the sram spiders. I should know better than to take any one mechanic's word, especially when he is trying to sell me something.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby mitzikatzi » Thu May 03, 2012 1:32 am
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 3:22 am
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby brisrouleur » Thu May 03, 2012 9:56 am
I guess that's the thing hey. I mean, how could I prove that I hadn't tampered with the cassette prior - they would just have to take my word on it. But I am a little disappointed that it has sustained this much damage after such a short period given the likelihood it was due to incorrect torque from factory.PawPaw wrote: I'm even more inclined to believe the lockring wasn't torqued enough. Doubt there's any point complaining to the LBS, seeing FR has already interfered with the torque settings.
I think I'll still take the wheel in and have a chat to the guys before I put it all together again to see what they say. I'm sure they'll have a good idea on what the typical marks should be on the freehub given the life of the bike so far.
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Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby Comedian » Thu May 03, 2012 10:30 am
I would take it into the shop.FrugalRouleur wrote:I guess that's the thing hey. I mean, how could I prove that I hadn't tampered with the cassette prior - they would just have to take my word on it. But I am a little disappointed that it has sustained this much damage after such a short period given the likelihood it was due to incorrect torque from factory.PawPaw wrote: I'm even more inclined to believe the lockring wasn't torqued enough. Doubt there's any point complaining to the LBS, seeing FR has already interfered with the torque settings.
I think I'll still take the wheel in and have a chat to the guys before I put it all together again to see what they say. I'm sure they'll have a good idea on what the typical marks should be on the freehub given the life of the bike so far.
I really doubt they would have touched that during the build. From what I understand the better bikes are nearly complete when they arrive from the factory.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby deadrat » Thu May 03, 2012 10:39 am
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 10:50 am
Completely normal for 2000km and a lockring torqued to spec?deadrat wrote:As Jacks said, completely normal.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby brisrouleur » Thu May 03, 2012 11:04 am
I'll get the LBS opinion on this and report back. It is an interesting debate - I can understand how easily an alloy FH can get these marks, but I don't have the experience of pulling down lots of them to notice what is normal or not.PawPaw wrote:Completely normal for 2000km and a lockring torqued to spec?deadrat wrote:As Jacks said, completely normal.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 11:25 am
Yes it seems many LBSs don't even do safety checks, which involve re-torquing, before delivering a new bike to a customer. Next time you see my ex, ask her about the 5 bikes bought by her sons and mates last year. All of them had issues with loose key components (bars, pedals, derailleurs, brake caliper to tubing bolts) within the first 100km.Comedian wrote:I really doubt they would have touched that during the build. From what I understand the better bikes are nearly complete when they arrive from the factory.
Though not all LBSs are equal. My bike had everything re-torqued and loctite or grease applied where relevant, because the LBS said manufacturer standards are highly variable. I know of 3 Brisbane LBSs that don't let new bikes out the door without re-torquing.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 11:34 am
If your LBS responds it's normal, then they need to explain why so many alloy freehubs don't have bad teeth marks after 2000km. If you like, I'll post a pic of my alloy freehub with 22,000km on it. It's nothing like yours. I guess mine is abnormal.FrugalRouleur wrote:I'll get the LBS opinion on this and report back. It is an interesting debate - I can understand how easily an alloy FH can get these marks, but I don't have the experience of pulling down lots of them to notice what is normal or not.
The reason advanced teeth marks might be normal is because it is normal NOT to tighten the lockring to spec on new bikes.
Though I presume logic like this would be lost on many.
BTW, my friends and I use your web portal heaps. Anyone who can design something like that is highly logical in my view
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby brisrouleur » Thu May 03, 2012 1:11 pm
That website isn't actually run by me it's just a coincidence of names But it is a great website, I use it too
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 1:21 pm
Looks very completely normal for an alloy freehub and its a non-issue. You'll never know if it was torqued at the shop unless you checked it before removing it but regardless you've got nothing to worry about.PawPaw wrote:Completely normal for 2000km and a lockring torqued to spec?deadrat wrote:As Jacks said, completely normal.
Ensure you torque it up properly when it goes back on and it'll be happy days.
Wear on the freehub as pictured is only of concern if you are getting close to the point of failure. If you properly torque the lockring you'll always wear the freehub bearings out a long time, probably 20,000kms BEFORE you chew through the freehub to the point of failure.
The only really mashed up alloy freehubs I've ever seen are from people who we know didn't torque the lockring. By not doing it up tight enough the cassette pieces are not locked against each other so the contact area is very small - of course this will chew up the freehub badly, especially if you are a sprinter or climber.
Hope that makes sense?
As such - this wear is not of concern. Everyone could use heavy steel freehubs and they don't chew up, but they still don't last any longer as they have bearings in them are generally too much work to try and replace.
The freehub is considered a consumable item like bearings, as long as you don't chew it out before the bearings are worn out then its done the job.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby danny the boy » Thu May 03, 2012 1:24 pm
Edit. Googled it.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby gururug » Thu May 03, 2012 1:26 pm
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 1:31 pm
PawPaw, do you use a SRAM cassette?PawPaw wrote:If your LBS responds it's normal, then they need to explain why so many alloy freehubs don't have bad teeth marks after 2000km. If you like, I'll post a pic of my alloy freehub with 22,000km on it. It's nothing like yours. I guess mine is abnormal.FrugalRouleur wrote:I'll get the LBS opinion on this and report back. It is an interesting debate - I can understand how easily an alloy FH can get these marks, but I don't have the experience of pulling down lots of them to notice what is normal or not.
All wheel manufacturers fit what I call 9sp compatible freehubs these days.
The Shimano 10sp cassettes since about 5 years ago are designed for higher ridges on the spider pattern, this was bought about when wheel manufacturers started using Alloy freehubs. The higher ridges don't chew up anywhere near as bad - BUT the higher ridge is not compatible with a SRAM cassette.
The wheel manufacturers who had gone to Shimano 10Sp specific freehub designs (Pro-Lite included) were forced to go back to the 9sp freehub since SRAM became so popular in the market place. It was not viable to run two different 10sp freehub designs, one for Sram, one for Shimano.
Anyway, a Sram cassette won't chew up a "9sp" hub body quite as much because it is a little more snug fit, they will still mark though with the exception of the one-piece cassette. If you run a one-piece older model Sram Red cassette then you won't get ANY marks on it because the contact patch is huge and there is no movement in the cassette.
If you try some other cassettes (not one piece) you'll understand a little better, all alloy free hubs will mark up like the OP when run with a normal "loose" (not one-piece) cassette. I know some alloys are harder than others but I've never seen an alloy hub body that didn't mark up.
In anycase, it really is not of concern. I maintain that if you do up the lockring to 40Nm, the bearings inside the freehub will be worn out a long time before the hub body is chewed through and if you don't maintain the freehub bearings you'll end up looking for a new wheel axle when they fail and chew up the axle...
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby jasonc » Thu May 03, 2012 2:05 pm
let me know.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby jacks1071 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:19 pm
They use a steel freehub, hence no marks. The alloy freehubs are pretty much standard equipment on more light weight models.jasonc wrote:I can take a photo of my shimano RS10s with 5000km on them. I don't remember any marks on them.
let me know.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby toolonglegs » Thu May 03, 2012 3:58 pm
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby eeksll » Thu May 03, 2012 3:59 pm
The spacers on my 105 cassette don't look like they would generate alot of friction between them and the cog, so I doubt 40Nm of force is really enough to clamp it altogether and stop movement, its enough to ensure they are not loose.
I am not a engineer in this space, but if I understand correctly what 40Nm means,
40Nm = 4.1 kg meters
so that is 4.1kg weight on the end of a 1 meter long spanner
to me that sounds like nothing.
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Re: Giant P-SL0 Wheels
Postby PawPaw » Thu May 03, 2012 4:07 pm
Though you might remember I trialled a used wheel with a powertap hub and a sram cassette fitted.
I've also trialled several other wheelsets in the last few months with sram cassettes on my ultegra 6700 groupset bike.
jacks1071 wrote:PawPaw, do you use a SRAM cassette?
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