Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

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Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:41 am

Hi all,

Upgrading so I can go from an 11-28T cassette to a 11-32T cassette. I am often stuck at 50rpm cadence up hills.

So anyway, not sure which way to go. Not much info out there on the difference. All I can see that Red has improved over Force is:

- Ceramic bearing jockey wheels
- Carbon inner links
- Titanium pinch bolt

I currently have a Sram Red RD with Red shifters. Came with the bike (my first and only bike). They are pre 2012.

About $160 for the Force and $310 for the Red, so $150 difference or approx double the price. From what I have read the Force is 90% as good but these are reviews based on feel. I don't mind paying for something that is better.

Reading about the ceramic bearings, it sounds like their advantage is little to no maintenance and quieter. As I am not a mechanic type, not having to worry about pulling out and cleaning and oiling the jockey wheels is worth $150 to me. Am I on the right track here? What else am I missing?

Thanks.
Last edited by DaveQB on Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:55 am

Oh I meant to post two interesting links about Ceramic bearings:

This is the article I got the idea that ceramic bearings don't need maintenance. (Call me lazy but I like the sound of this :) )
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/05/ ... eys_284386

A very basic comparison of cheap steel bearings and expensive ceramic bearings in a spinning test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2KCs_lBKWU
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby Duck! » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:47 pm

Ceramic bearings pack their greatest advantage in very high load situations because they don't deform under compression. Derailleur jockey wheels are not high load. There will be more drag from the bearing seals than between the bearing types. I'd go the Red to keep it matched with the rest of the group if that's a concern to you, rather than for technical reasons.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:54 pm

Duck! wrote:I'd go the Red to keep it matched with the rest of the group if that's a concern to you, rather than for technical reasons.


Haha yeah initially that was driving me to get Red; I just couldn't accept having a Force component in the mix, but I've been reading and telling myself to base it all on the merits of the component and cost. So I am on the fence now.

Duck! wrote:Ceramic bearings pack their greatest advantage in very high load situations because they don't deform under compression. Derailleur jockey wheels are not high load. There will be more drag from the bearing seals than between the bearing types.


So Red has better bearing seals?
It is true that the Red RD will stand up to my bad cleaning and mechanical skills better? The article I linked to is for entirely different ceramic pulley wheels, so not sure if the conclusion applies to Sram red pulleys wheels.

Thanks again Duck! :)
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby Duck! » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:02 pm

DaveQB wrote:
Duck! wrote:Ceramic bearings pack their greatest advantage in very high load situations because they don't deform under compression. Derailleur jockey wheels are not high load. There will be more drag from the bearing seals than between the bearing types.


So Red has better bearing seals?

I'd say the seals are in all probability the same. Pick the seals off a steel bearing & a ceramic bearing & under no load there's not much difference between them in terms of drag. Put the seals back on, and there will be a fair bit more induced drag than the difference between the two bearings.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:13 pm

Duck! wrote:I'd say the seals are in all probability the same. Pick the seals off a steel bearing & a ceramic bearing & under no load there's not much difference between them in terms of drag. Put the seals back on, and there will be a fair bit more induced drag than the difference between the two bearings.


I see. So you're saying there's no difference in drag? I had come to that conclusion through reading articles, not from any experience like yourself.

Is it true, from your experience, that ceramic bearing require less maintenance than steel?

For a component that is double the price of the next tier down I struggle to think there's no improvement in it somewhere. If not, very strange product arrangement by Sram; they shouldn't sell any Red 22 RD.

Thanks.

PS This video got me thinking
http://blog.artscyclery.com/road/sram-r ... our-money/
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby usernameforme » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:51 pm

I'd agree with what they've written on the artscyclery blog. I'd buy the Rival RD and put the spare cash elsewhere (like an RED exogram crankset or new wheels). To put it into context, I think Contador used an Apex RD a while back before they introduced the long cage option to the higher tier offerings.

The only reason why I would shell out extra money for the Red (or even Force) RD would be for weight, if you've got cash to spare go for the red RD.

I'd also consider getting a YAW FD if you haven't got one already - sounds like you do a lot of climbing so front shifting should also be important to you.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:56 pm

usernameforme wrote:I'd agree with what they've written on the artscyclery blog. I'd buy the Rival RD and put the spare cash elsewhere (like an RED exogram crankset or new wheels). To put it into context, I think Contador used an Apex RD a while back before they introduced the long cage option to the higher tier offerings.

The only reason why I would shell out extra money for the Red (or even Force) RD would be for weight, if you've got cash to spare go for the red RD.

I'd also consider getting a YAW FD if you haven't got one already - sounds like you do a lot of climbing so front shifting should also be important to you.


Thanks mate.
I did read that about Contador. It was the Vuelta 2012 I think.

I will upgrade the other parts in this group. Don't do excessive climbing, just bad at it and want to be grinding away as little as possible to affect my weights program as little as possible.

So why would anyone buy the Red 22 RD then? Just for 20 grams?
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby usernameforme » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:34 pm

Essentially, each part weighs ~20-100g more so in terms of the whole groupset it does add up (roughly something like 1800g vs 2200g for RED vs FORCE). I'd also suggest ceramic bearings in the RD are also pretty marginal unless you have a super clean/efficient chain. I personally think that Force/Rival is better value, but if you're racing at the highest level 'value' probably isn't your biggest concern.

Another argument would be that if you only buy a bike every few years, if you divide the price premium (eg $1000 for the whole groupset) by however long your bike lasts you (3 years - 1095 days = $0.91 per day extra --> less than some gym memberships) the price difference is pretty marginal. I once thought used to think that, but crashes do happen. I'd rather have the peace of mind that if something unexpected did happen, I'd be able to replace what I'm using.

Only way to get better at climbing is to keep doing it!

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:02 pm

usernameforme wrote:Essentially, each part weighs ~20-100g more so in terms of the whole groupset it does add up (roughly something like 1800g vs 2200g for RED vs FORCE). I'd also suggest ceramic bearings in the RD are also pretty marginal unless you have a super clean/efficient chain. I personally think that Force/Rival is better value, but if you're racing at the highest level 'value' probably isn't your biggest concern.


Fair point. I am certainly not racing, let alone the highest level. But am wanting to do some long Audax rides this year, so every little watt will count. I have only read in one place that ceramic bearings, being so tough, have less issue with grit and dirt and can crush that gunk up, thus not needing to be cleaned to perform close to their best, when compared to steel. Buggered if I know. Force might be the best deal.

usernameforme wrote:Another argument would be that if you only buy a bike every few years, if you divide the price premium (eg $1000 for the whole groupset) by however long your bike lasts you (3 years - 1095 days = $0.91 per day extra --> less than some gym memberships) the price difference is pretty marginal.


Ok, Red might be the best deal then :)

usernameforme wrote:I once thought used to think that, but crashes do happen. I'd rather have the peace of mind that if something unexpected did happen, I'd be able to replace what I'm using.


This has crossed my mind. ie I shouldn't spend too much on my bike so I don't have to be so paranoid about it. I mean, I do treat it with care, but having a little less invested in it would be that bit less anxiety.

usernameforme wrote:Only way to get better at climbing is to keep doing it!


This is true. But american football is still my main sport, so I do weight training designed for that. And I only cycle 1-2 times a week.

Thanks for your response/thoughts.
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby duncan.savage.re » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:35 pm

There is no functional difference between the red and force RD's. The only difference is 33g in weight.

The ceramic bearings are theoretically a tiny bit lower in drag but they have to be maintained. The official recommendation is to re-grease every "100 hours of use in dry conditions or immediately following any significant exposure to water". Unless you are willing to do that, the steel jockey bearings are a better choice.

So is 33g worth $150 to you?

Edit: maintenance requirement clarified.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby Duck! » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:04 pm

DaveQB wrote:
Duck! wrote:I'd say the seals are in all probability the same. Pick the seals off a steel bearing & a ceramic bearing & under no load there's not much difference between them in terms of drag. Put the seals back on, and there will be a fair bit more induced drag than the difference between the two bearings.


I see. So you're saying there's no difference in drag? I had come to that conclusion through reading articles, not from any experience like yourself.

Is it true, from your experience, that ceramic bearing require less maintenance than steel?

Not with ceramic hybrid (ceramic balls in steel shells) bearings; the steel cartridge shells are still prone to corrosion, and the tiny size and minimal loading totally negate any grit-crushing ability the ceramic might have.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:48 pm

duncan.savage.re wrote:There is no functional difference between the red and force RD's. The only difference is 33g in weight.

The ceramic bearings are theoretically a tiny bit lower in drag but they have to be maintained. The official recommendation is to re-grease every "100 hours of use in dry conditions or immediately following any significant exposure to water". Unless you are willing to do that, the steel jockey bearings are a better choice.

So is 33g worth $150 to you?

Edit: maintenance requirement clarified.


Duck! wrote:Not with ceramic hybrid (ceramic balls in steel shells) bearings; the steel cartridge shells are still prone to corrosion, and the tiny size and minimal loading totally negate any grit-crushing ability the ceramic might have.


Right. So it really is purely just weight being the difference, there's no less maintenance, better efficiency etc to spoken of.
Anything on the longevity front better with Red?

I do want to upgrade the shifters and FD too and move to 11 speed, so maybe I'll change it all to Sram Force. Weekend riding on Sram Red is like wearing a World Champion Jersey on a weekend ride? :mrgreen:

Thanks for the info guys.
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby softy » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:20 pm

I have had red and force, the shifting is sharper on the red, but that could be the STIs.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:53 pm

softy wrote:I have had red and force, the shifting is sharper on the red, but that could be the STIs.

Really? I think for me, coming from old (pre Sram red 2012) either works be a noticeable improvement?

What's STI?
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Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby rheicel » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:01 pm

Shimano Total Integration (STI). The term many people used when referring to a combined shifter and brake lever. :)
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby usernameforme » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:04 pm

STI = Shimano Total Integration, sometimes used loosely to mean brake/shift levers (beat me to it rheicel :) ).

With previous generation SRAM red/force (the 10 speed) only red had 'zero-loss' (SRAM's way of saying that your gearshift engaged immediately) on the right shifter and hence might have felt better. For the Force/Red 22 both versions feature zero-loss on the left and right shifters, and (from what I understand of the art's blogpost) Red/Force share the same shifter internals, so I doubt one will last longer than the other.

I'd say you will notice a difference in the front shifting coming from pre-YAW to the current gen YAW SRAM. Plus you get an 11th gear (a lot of people are skeptical about this, but when you run 11-32 or even 11-28 having more of those middle gears is really nice).

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:54 pm

usernameforme wrote:STI = Shimano Total Integration, sometimes used loosely to mean brake/shift levers (beat me to it rheicel :) ).


Thanks guys.

usernameforme wrote:With previous generation SRAM red/force (the 10 speed) only red had 'zero-loss' (SRAM's way of saying that your gearshift engaged immediately) on the right shifter and hence might have felt better. For the Force/Red 22 both versions feature zero-loss on the left and right shifters, and (from what I understand of the art's blogpost) Red/Force share the same shifter internals, so I doubt one will last longer than the other.


Yes I did read that. I learnt that you should get red shifters but then notice the Force 22 had the zero loss.

I find it odd that Sram has almost squeezed their top tier range (red) out of the market.


usernameforme wrote:I'd say you will notice a difference in the front shifting coming from pre-YAW to the current gen YAW SRAM. Plus you get an 11th gear (a lot of people are skeptical about this, but when you run 11-32 or even 11-28 having more of those middle gears is really nice).


I think you're right. I'm not changing the whole group set though, just going RD, chain and cassette to get 11-32T with WiFli. Getting the 11 speed RD as there's no price difference and it will work fine with my current 10 speed. Although I think I only need to add in the right shifter to get to 11 speed.....
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DuncanS » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:10 am

Right shifter, chain and cassette. And you don't need to change RD.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DuncanS » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:12 am

DuncanS wrote:Right shifter, chain and cassette. And you don't need to change RD.

..for 22sp I mean. Of course you need to for wi-fli.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:52 am

DuncanS wrote:
DuncanS wrote:Right shifter, chain and cassette. And you don't need to change RD.

..for 22sp I mean. Of course you need to for wi-fli.

Thanks.
How does the 11 speed chain interact with the FD? No issues? I have Praxis chainrings that are 10/11 speed so that sounds like no potential issues there.
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby Duck! » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:01 pm

No probs at all, the front end of the system is a lot less fussy.

usernameforme wrote:With previous generation SRAM red/force (the 10 speed) only red had 'zero-loss' (SRAM's way of saying that your gearshift engaged immediately) on the right shifter and hence might have felt better. For the Force/Red 22 both versions feature zero-loss on the left and right shifters, and (from what I understand of the art's blogpost) Red/Force share the same shifter internals, so I doubt one will last longer than the other.

I'd say you will notice a difference in the front shifting coming from pre-YAW to the current gen YAW SRAM. Plus you get an 11th gear (a lot of people are skeptical about this, but when you run 11-32 or even 11-28 having more of those middle gears is really nice).

The biggest improvement in SRAM's front shifting comes from the chainrings. Their early ones were ridiculously flexy, and would bend out of the way when you tried to push the chain onto the big one, then turf the chain off as it sprung back. Early Red FDs had a titanium cage, which only exacerbated the flex....

softy wrote:I have had red and force, the shifting is sharper on the red, but that could be the STIs.

Shifters always pack the greatest difference in shift feel.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby usernameforme » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:47 am

Yaw is harder to set up, but GCN have a good video describing how to set it up. I'd say not having the trim position makes it a lot less fuss while riding (obviously harder to set up though).

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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:50 am

usernameforme wrote:Yaw is harder to set up, but GCN have a good video describing how to set it up. I'd say not having the trim position makes it a lot less fuss while riding (obviously harder to set up though).


I do love the sound of the new FD. I look forward to getting on that in the future. Maybe later this year.

Thanks for all the info guys. I am going to go the Force RD.
I know it breaks up my Red set, Duck! but I think I will go Force shifters and FD anyway. Then I'd like to get etap one day in the future (but not at it's current RRP)
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Re: Sram Red 22 or Force 22 Rear Derailleur

Postby DaveQB » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:07 am

Just an update....
I had the Force 22 RD, 11-32 cassette and a KNC chain installed last Friday and rode a 200km Audax ride into the Mountains......I think I may have got off and walked for the first time ever while going up a 100m 20% road near Echo Point if not for the 11-32T cassette :D Amazing!
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