Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:35 pm

My local bike shop stuffed my back wheel hub,(Shimano sora) they broke the dust cover and put non shimano cones in it that didn't even have a seal ring on left hand side and then used a mountain bike left hand dust cover,(they broke my shimano one) which did no0t even come close to running flush with the left cone. You can see the bearings. You can not buy the left hand dust cover on its own you have to buy the hole hub and grab it off that. They are $40 so im just going to get a new wheel. Im just a cycling enthusiast and do about 120km a week for fun. I love going fast and always try and do better times. Anyways I was going to buy shimano wh-r501, (cup & cone) but then found a shimano rs21, (sealed bearing) for not much dearer. My question is will it last like the shimano cup&cone set up or should I go for the sealed bearing upgrade keeping in mind that my roads are rough as and I can not afford to be replacing bearings all the time or will it last a good amount of time just as the shimano cup&cone. Thankyou.
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by BNA » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:40 pm

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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby darkhorse75 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:40 pm

I'm pretty sure the RS21's are cup and cone, the sealed bearing thing just refers to the seals that are present on the cup and cone system.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:46 pm

darkhorse75 wrote:I'm pretty sure the RS21's are cup and cone, the sealed bearing thing just refers to the seals that are present on the cup and cone system.


+1, i'm not aware of any Shimano hubs that have sealed cartridge bearings, i'm pretty sure they are all cup and cone.

Mavic Aksiums have cartridge bearings, I've had 2 sets of Aksiums and after plenty of kms both of them are still super smooth. They are great wheels and very cheap too.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:54 pm

I just thought they were a sealed type bearing by the way the rear hub was laced up but im not sure my budget for a wheel set is $250 max are the sealed bearing hubs really that much faster. they must not be if there dura ace hubs are cup and cone if your information is correct on there being no shimno sealed bearing hubs.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:02 pm

Thankyou ldr just looked at reviews for mavic askyms sound like they are just what I need and are right on my $250 budget. Sweet I love this site
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby queequeg » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:15 pm

All Shimano aftermarket hubs are cup&cone (even the top of the line Dura-Ace Titanium Freehub ones) and I am pretty sure all their wheel sets are the same.

If the bike shop stuffed your wheel, surely they can replace the hub? I can't fathom how they managed to destroy both dust covers as well as the cone!
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:47 pm

queequeg wrote:...I can't fathom how they managed to destroy both dust covers as well as the cone!

Misplaced the cone spanner so they used a couple of 10" bargain bin shifters.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:07 pm

queequeg they destroyed the left hand dust cover( as it is not part of the cone) as they removed it. I can see the dent were they tried wedging it out while the cone was still in it where as your suppose to remove the cone first then use a tyre leaver with a bit of rag around it and wedge it out from the middle. they r not replaceable. they did not destroy my old cones just through them away and used ones that come of a 7 speed hybrid(don't have a seal ring) and this after I asked to only use genuine shimano cones and they told me yes. the dust cover they used is off a mountain bike which have a thicker cone so leaving the bearings completely exposed. when I complained I was told to shove the wheel up my a... which of course I reacted to as no one likes the threat of sexual assult. Went straight to water of course. you are probably thinking why I took it in there in the first place. the rear wheel developed a tick and I could feel a slight resistance and I do not own a chain whip or a cassette remover to do it myself( I have now got both tools orded and on the way all ready own cone spanners. I have certainly learned a lesson and also discovered through a different bike shop that the tic was coming from my free hub. I should have known better as this particular bike shop is a sports store and only sell low end mountain bikes but I do not own a car and the proper bike shop is 20km away
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby biker jk » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:13 pm

jimconte wrote:I just thought they were a sealed type bearing by the way the rear hub was laced up but im not sure my budget for a wheel set is $250 max are the sealed bearing hubs really that much faster. they must not be if there dura ace hubs are cup and cone if your information is correct on there being no shimno sealed bearing hubs.


Shimano bearings are sealed but they use free bearings not cartridge bearings. The Shimano cup and cone system is much easier to service yourself. So if you have invested in cone spanners you might as well buy Shimano wheels.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:00 pm

Thankyou for advice biker when I say sealed bearings I meant cartridge by what I am hearing there is no speed advantage to having cartridge bearing type hubs.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby queequeg » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:40 pm

jimconte wrote:queequeg they destroyed the left hand dust cover( as it is not part of the cone) as they removed it. I can see the dent were they tried wedging it out while the cone was still in it where as your suppose to remove the cone first then use a tyre leaver with a bit of rag around it and wedge it out from the middle. they r not replaceable. they did not destroy my old cones just through them away and used ones that come of a 7 speed hybrid(don't have a seal ring) and this after I asked to only use genuine shimano cones and they told me yes. the dust cover they used is off a mountain bike which have a thicker cone so leaving the bearings completely exposed. when I complained I was told to shove the wheel up my a... which of course I reacted to as no one likes the threat of sexual assult. Went straight to water of course. you are probably thinking why I took it in there in the first place. the rear wheel developed a tick and I could feel a slight resistance and I do not own a chain whip or a cassette remover to do it myself( I have now got both tools orded and on the way all ready own cone spanners. I have certainly learned a lesson and also discovered through a different bike shop that the tic was coming from my free hub. I should have known better as this particular bike shop is a sports store and only sell low end mountain bikes but I do not own a car and the proper bike shop is 20km away


Sounds like they really had no clue. I recently had my Deore XT Rear Hub start to grind a bit. I went and bought myself 1 cone spanners and a tub of grease. The park tool website had a simple step by step tutorial on servicing them. No force was necessary to remove the dust covers. They come straight off with your fingers.

How come they chucked out the cones though?
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:42 pm

jimconte wrote:Thankyou ldr just looked at reviews for mavic askyms sound like they are just what I need and are right on my $250 budget. Sweet I love this site


You should be able to pick them up cheaper than that, I think Cell Bikes have them on special at around $150-170 every so often, and 2nd hand sets turn up regularly on ebay for $100-120.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:52 pm

When I asked for the old cones back they said they were gone as they had been emptied into a industrial bin. he also said that the tic that was still in my wheel was because the cups were worn. I could only check the left side and they r stainless cups and it had apsolutley no were in it at all. Bad experience I live in a small town and like to support the community I have spent a fortune in that shop as I have 3 other bikes to maintain in my family. From now on its online for me. Even for things like inner tubes.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:56 pm

Thankyou idr I will check but seeming that the tone is that cartridge bearing type hubs are no faster I think I will stick to shimano rs21,s or another type of shimano wheels. everything on my bike is tiagra so I will match brands if there is no performance advantage
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby Duck! » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:59 pm

All Shimano hubs without exception use cup-&-cone bearings. The mid- to upper-range hubs are probably better sealed than many cartridge bearings!

Cartridge bearings (as used in wheels) are only designed to take radial loads, which is fine when you're just riding nice & straight & upright. Cup-&-cone hubs (technically called angular contact bearings because the cup-bearing-cone contact interface is at an angle to the rotational plane of the wheel) are better able to handle side loading induced through cornering, resulting in better wear resistance, providing they're correctly adjusted.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:12 pm

Thanks duck that is great advice I have hills&mountains and poor roads all around were I live so will definatley stick with the cup and cone type
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby bychosis » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:17 pm

Can you pick up the me model hub and transfer the internals? Might be cheaper than a new wheel and easier than relacing a rim to a new hub.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:25 pm

Yes bychosis I looked at doing that the cheapest I could find it was $40 and delivery on top(not sure but it was ridiculous as it was from u.s.a could not find them in oz) so I thought may as well get a new wheel as the entire thing is only $80 for the rear.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:20 pm

Duck! wrote:Cartridge bearings (as used in wheels) are only designed to take radial loads, which is fine when you're just riding nice & straight & upright. Cup-&-cone hubs (technically called angular contact bearings because the cup-bearing-cone contact interface is at an angle to the rotational plane of the wheel) are better able to handle side loading induced through cornering, resulting in better wear resistance, providing they're correctly adjusted.


Good in theory perhaps, but I've done thousands of kms on those Aksiums with no problems. Cartridge bearings have been used since the 30s and they aren't expensive to replace if/when they do eventually wear out. I'm not against angular contact bearings, but cartridge bearings are just easier, with no real downside.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby queequeg » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:06 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
Duck! wrote:Cartridge bearings (as used in wheels) are only designed to take radial loads, which is fine when you're just riding nice & straight & upright. Cup-&-cone hubs (technically called angular contact bearings because the cup-bearing-cone contact interface is at an angle to the rotational plane of the wheel) are better able to handle side loading induced through cornering, resulting in better wear resistance, providing they're correctly adjusted.


Good in theory perhaps, but I've done thousands of kms on those Aksiums with no problems. Cartridge bearings have been used since the 30s and they aren't expensive to replace if/when they do eventually wear out. I'm not against angular contact bearings, but cartridge bearings are just easier, with no real downside.


Only downside is that you need a set of bearing tools to remove and install them, and every hub is different.
I had one bearing in my rear freehub destroy itself and it cost me $30 for a new bearing and $20 for the lbs to replace it. That was 1/3 the cost of the whole hub. When I lost another bearing 2 months after that one, I replaced the entire hub for $50 (Shimano Deore XT). All I had to do to service those was unscrew the cup and cone, clean the bearings, apply grease and put it back together.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:29 pm

You need specific tools to service cup and cone hubs too :) .

And as the OP's experience shows, there are differences between cup and cone hubs too.

Bearing in mind, my race bike has Shimano RS80 wheels that have done over 4,000kms now without needing any adjustment, so there's nothing wrong with them, it's just that cartridge hubs are not the devil :) .
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby queequeg » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:37 pm

ldrcycles wrote:You need specific tools to service cup and cone hubs too :) .

And as the OP's experience shows, there are differences between cup and cone hubs too.

Bearing in mind, my race bike has Shimano RS80 wheels that have done over 4,000kms now without needing any adjustment, so there's nothing wrong with them, it's just that cartridge hubs are not the devil :) .


yes, you need a set of cone spanners, which will work on any cones. Trouble with bearing kits is that a kit fir one brand of hub won't work on another. To get a universal bearing kit is rather expensive.
I have some brand new Hope Pro 2 EVO hubs waiting for a wheel build, but I need to swap the alloy freehub for the steel one. I need the bearing tools and freehub seal tool to do the job without damaging anything, so I haven't done it yet (lack of time is also a major issue). The Deore XT hub was just an interim measure, but it has so far held up for about 10,000km.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby eeksll » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:31 am

with cup and cone, if the cups get pitted, its new hub time which includes a new wheel build.
If the cone gets pitted, you may as well get a new wheel because its not worth while paying for just the cone.

I have had 3 cup and cone hubs,
One that came with my giant crx4 (presumably cheap)
Shimano R500 ( reasonably cheap)
my dynamo hub, a Deore XT DH-T785 - TN 317 Hub Dynamo

All have developed pitted cups and cones, except the cheap rear wheel, which I haven't looked at ... and this is before I played with them.

having said that, i couldnt ever really notice it (while riding)
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby Duck! » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:40 am

eeksll wrote:If the cone gets pitted, you may as well get a new wheel because its not worth while paying for just the cone.

Given that cones only cost a few dollars, you make an invalid point.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Shimano cup&cone hub or sealed bearing hub

Postby jimconte » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:04 am

Thankyou for everyones input you all make great points queequeg is right though I would need more specialised tools then what I have to service cartridge bearings i.e plastic mallet and bearing seating tool but the main thing I have got from all of this is that cartridge bearings are not faster in the same price range as cup and cone hubs and im all about going fast for as cheap as possible, (my mrs will never get the passion I have for my cycling) so I will definatley stick with cup and cone when I wrote this forum I honestly believed that cartridge bearing hubs were newer technology and went faster but thanks to everyone I am now a little wiser. Thankyou everyone again.
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