Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

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Duck!
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes - New Dura-Ace

Postby Duck! » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:12 pm

MichaelB wrote:Wonder what the new DA levers will look like ?

Very very similar to 9000/9070. :D

Following the official launch yesterday of new R9100-series Dura-Ace, here's the pre-emptive answer to the compatibility questions. :wink: The good news is that despite the significant geometry changes to both derailleurs, they're fully compatible with existing 11-sp + 4700 Tiagra shifters. Brake calipers likewise are a match with existing 7900 & later levers. All levels of road hydraulic brake levers and calipers are interchangeable. The only bit that comes with a slight question mark is the crank/FD pairing. The new crank has slightly wider chainring spacing, with the small ring being brought inward very slightly. We're only talking about half a millimetre, but apparently some frames limit how far in the older derailleur can be wound, so may not work as well as it could with the new crank. As such it's recommended to pair the new crank to the new FD, but in reality it's generally unlikely to be an issue.

On the Di2 front, disregarding ye olde 7970 10-sp. Dura-Ace, all shifters, derailleurs and upper junction/control boxes, both road and MTB will talk to each other, but certain functions such as Synchro shifting are only available with certain derailleur and junction combinations.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:17 am

Just a couple of additional notes/clarifications/updates on the electronic tricks & compatibility:

The Synchro shift function at present is only available on both MTB Di2 groups and new R9150 Dura-Ace, and needs a compatible junction box - SC-M9050, SC-M9051, SC-MT800, EW-RS910 or EW-RS911 to work. Shimano have apparently been playing around with backdating the necessary trickery to work with 6770/6870/9070 derailleurs, and may release the appropriate update but as it currently stands those derailleurs won't do it. As far as I can tell the Semi-synchro function, which automatically does the ratio-jump-reducing rear shifts when a front shift is manually performed (when that program function is switched on) is only available on new Dura-Ace and not XTR/XT.

The wireless connection to E-Tube is fully backward compatible with all Di2 systems except the original 7970 DA. To achieve this compatibility, any one of the aforementioned junction boxes except SC-M9050 (the original XTR unit) OR the inline wireless boxes EW-WU101 or EW-WU111 PLUS a new BT-DN110 internal battery or BM-DN100 external battery mount are required to do the job. Plus of course a Bluetooth-compatible device with the E-Tube app (due around August) for the bits to talk to.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby AndyRevill » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:10 pm

I'm starting to plan a bit of a tour early next year and while I think I should be OK with my 11-28 I am a bit tempted to put a 32t on there as a safety net for my ageing legs. I currently have a 6700 RD which looks like it clears the cassette with no worries but if I wanted to insure against a big-big slip-up am I right in assuming it's possible to swap cages over, say pick up a cheap 105 GS RD and use the cage off that or are they fixed on there (I guess I could use the whole thing)? If it is possible, the next dilemma is I'm likely to go 11 speed at some point in the not too distant future so could I buy a 6800 GS and use that cage or will I run into issues with width?

Thanks, Andy
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:09 pm

Depending on the vintage, your 6700 RD could work as-is with the 32T. It got a geometry revision during 2012 for '13 model year to give sufficient clearance for the bigger sprocket. If it's pre-update it's unlikely to fit, regardless of the cage. It's often not possible to swap the cages between models; although detachable, the pivots can differ between models so they don't fit together.

If you're changing to 11-sp. soon anyway, I'd save the coin & wait until then, as you can't use the existing derailleur in 11-sp. anyway, and 105 & Ultegra are both 32T compatible, even in short form, but the longer cage gives a bit more chain length insurance.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby DG1984 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:30 pm

Duck! wrote:If you're changing to 11-sp. soon anyway, I'd save the coin & wait until then, as you can't use the existing derailleur in 11-sp. anyway, and 105 & Ultegra are both 32T compatible, even in short form, but the longer cage gives a bit more chain length insurance.


So going from an 11-28 to 11-32 when using 5800 kit is all good, without the need for a derailleur change?

I got punished on a climb two months ago...had to walk up half the hill. Having 4 extra teeth would have meant I might have made it 3/4 of the way :lol:

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:29 pm

Absolutely. You do need to ensure the chain is as long as it can be without undue slack in order to get the full gear range, but it does do it. It is advised more strongly than usual to avoid big-big, but it will cope with occasional abuse.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby AndyRevill » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:43 pm

Duck! wrote:Depending on the vintage, your 6700 RD could work as-is with the 32T. It got a geometry revision during 2012 for '13 model year to give sufficient clearance for the bigger sprocket. If it's pre-update it's unlikely to fit, regardless of the cage. It's often not possible to swap the cages between models; although detachable, the pivots can differ between models so they don't fit together.

If you're changing to 11-sp. soon anyway, I'd save the coin & wait until then, as you can't use the existing derailleur in 11-sp. anyway, and 105 & Ultegra are both 32T compatible, even in short form, but the longer cage gives a bit more chain length insurance.


Thanks. I got the bike early 2013 so maybe I'm lucky :D there certainly seems to be plenty of room when on the 28t for the extra diameter. If a cage swap is out of the question and given the trip will likely be before any 11 speed upgrade I'll just decide closer to the time to either go with it and try like crazy to avoid big-big or just HTFU :twisted:

Thanks again,

Andy
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby DG1984 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:44 pm

Duck! wrote:Absolutely. You do need to ensure the chain is as long as it can be without undue slack in order to get the full gear range, but it does do it. It is advised more strongly than usual to avoid big-big, but it will cope with occasional abuse.


Excellent - thanks for that. I'll see how I go next time I tackle it. :)

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby ball bearing » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:59 am

Is a Campagnolo 11 speed chain compatible with Shimano drivetrains? I have heard two different stories.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Spaniel » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:06 pm

Bookmarked! Thanks Duck.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:26 am

ball bearing wrote:Is a Campagnolo 11 speed chain compatible with Shimano drivetrains? I have heard two different stories.

I havent tried it, but suspect it would be a better match than 10-sp. C10 is distinctly wider than S10, but 11-sp. is pretty similar between the two. Link shaping may not perfectly match the sprocket & chainring ramping, but should work OK.

The bigger issue is shifter & derailleur + cassette pairing, moreso with 10-sp, but not entirely without trouble on 11. Particularly with 10-sp, Campag's sprocket spacing is wider than Shimano/SRAM, plus the individual spacings are not equal. You can bodge a Shimano or SRAM cassette into a Campag system & get it to suit accepatbly, but you can't get the wider cassettes to play nicely with the tighter Shimano/SRAM indexing. 11-sp. is virtually the same overall cassette width, but Campag persist with the unequal spacing; they have three different spacings used across the cassette! So some gears will tune in better than others.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby ball bearing » Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:49 am

Duck! wrote:
ball bearing wrote:Is a Campagnolo 11 speed chain compatible with Shimano drivetrains? I have heard two different stories.

I havent tried it, but suspect it would be a better match than 10-sp. C10 is distinctly wider than S10, but 11-sp. is pretty similar between the two. Link shaping may not perfectly match the sprocket & chainring ramping, but should work OK.

The bigger issue is shifter & derailleur + cassette pairing, moreso with 10-sp, but not entirely without trouble on 11. Particularly with 10-sp, Campag's sprocket spacing is wider than Shimano/SRAM, plus the individual spacings are not equal. You can bodge a Shimano or SRAM cassette into a Campag system & get it to suit accepatbly, but you can't get the wider cassettes to play nicely with the tighter Shimano/SRAM indexing. 11-sp. is virtually the same overall cassette width, but Campag persist with the unequal spacing; they have three different spacings used across the cassette! So some gears will tune in better than others.

Thanks, Duck. I've decided to not chance it even though I found some cheap YNB 11 speed chains. The manufacturer claims they is compatible with all 11 speed systems- I'll stick with Shimano.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby MichaelB » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:15 am

OK, here's a Q for you, that I can hopefully word sensibly so that it makes sense.

Problem : (in another thread) - Want a 32 hole C/Lock hub for Road Shimano 11sp. General solutions are horribly expensive or heavy.
Typically want a 11-28 or 11-32 cassette to fit.


Potential solution : Use a Shimano MTB hub (XTR 9010 as example). BUT, 11sp ROAD cassettes do not fit, only 10sp Road or 11sp MTB.

Question : As this wheelset is more of an occasional use wheelset, if I modify a ROAD 11sp cassette by taking a smidgen off the hub carrier (as many people did when 11sp road 1st came out) .

Does this make sense ? The Shimano MTB cassette options seem to be 40T min, so that's not useble (too low). And SRAM options are the XD Driver and stoopid expensive, so that's a no-go.

HELP ? :|

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Bunged Knee » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:00 pm

There`s Shimano Compatibilty chart, version 3 updated: 27/9/16.

For MTB, Road, Comfort and New Products.

http://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com/3.0?types=road
ID please? What ID? My seat tube ID is 27.2mm or 31.6mm depending on what bikes I ride today.thanks...

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby tez001 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:39 am

Duck! wrote:Chains get progressively narrower as more gears are introduced (again the exception being 7 & 8-sp, which are the same). You can go a step either way out of spec without major hassles, but it's not advisable to go more; wider chain doesn't mesh as nicely between the sprockets, so gets noisy, while narrower chain can jam on wider chainrings.


So using 11 speed chains with a 10 speed Shimano drivetrain is acceptable? I'd just like to consolidate some of my spares and not have 9, 10 and 11 speed chains sitting around :D

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby rheicel » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:52 am

tez001 wrote:So using 11 speed chains with a 10 speed Shimano drivetrain is acceptable? I'd just like to consolidate some of my spares and not have 9, 10 and 11 speed chains sitting around :D

I have been using 11 speed chains on some 10 speed drivetrains only because 11 speed chains are sometimes cheaper. They work tho. :D
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby siral » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:09 pm

Duck I have read with admiration your posts,so into the breach we go.Tiagra ST4700 I have read its not compatable with RD-R350-10 rear mech,because the new Tiagra 4700 is suited to 11 speed spacings.My plan was to convert a Trek FX7.5 with Tiagra flat bar shifters to Brifters.I guess my question to you is am I barking up the wrong tree

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:46 pm

Not so much the spacing, it's the cable pull ratio, which is the distance the derailleur moves in relation to the amount of cable pulled by the shifter. 4700 does indeed work on the same cable pull ratio as 11-sp. rather than that used for 8, 9 & other 10-sp. Basically, the 4700 system pulls more cable than other 10-sp. to achieve the same derailleur movement. If you can get your hands on a set of previous-generation ST-4600 Tiagra shifters, they will work with your existing derailleur, as they're related to your SL-4600 flat-bar shifters.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby siral » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:36 pm

Well done thanks Duck.Well then because the Trek uses V brakes,my thought process was to use the Tiagra ST 4700 shifters to mate for cable pull at the brakes.Am I better off upgrading the mech to a RD4700-GS.I'll just wait here for the Guru

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:40 pm

If you get the ST-4700 levers you will need a 4700 or "11-sp." 105, Ultegra or Dura-Ace derailleur for the compatible cable pull. You will only need the GS (long) version of the derailleur if you're running a triple-ring crank. Short-arm V-brakes should be OK, but full-size MTB V-brakes will not work with any road levers, as they need too much cable pull. Your alternative is cantilever brakes, which will suit the road levers and use the same mounts as the V-brakes.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby siral » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:53 pm

Good on you Duck.Thanks so much for your advise

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