Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Kronos
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Kronos » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:00 am

Yes, I just run into DI2 hell as I'm upgrading my 6700 10 speed to 6770 at present. No more tricks and witchcraft of getting away with using a 6870 rear deraileur anymore. You used to be able to for a while, and then there was a while where you could use them without updating the firmware. However, Shimano have fully firmware bricked out 10 speed users :evil: Never mind that anyway I sourced myself a 6770 front and rear derailleur.

I should note, the rest of the electronic components seem still to be compatible. You just need to get the derailleurs, which is getting increasingly more difficult as 6770 DI2 stuff ages out. It appears from all my knowledge available on the matter that its only the derailleurs that make DI2 10 or 11 speed compatible. Except the original 7970 DI2 which no one wants at this point due to age and incompatibility, all of the shifters, junction and control boxes for mountain bikes and road bikes are completely compatible with each other. Not sure if you've covered this just yet, but its just my latest trials in bringing an 07 Trek 1500 SLR out of the dark ages.
Duck! wrote:
ball bearing wrote:Is a Campagnolo 11 speed chain compatible with Shimano drivetrains? I have heard two different stories.
I havent tried it, but suspect it would be a better match than 10-sp. C10 is distinctly wider than S10, but 11-sp. is pretty similar between the two. Link shaping may not perfectly match the sprocket & chainring ramping, but should work OK.
From what I gather the Shimano, SRAM and Campag 11 speed cogs share the same spacing between them, so should be largely compatible. Again I don't have a Campag bike at the moment to test this out on, but others seem to be doing "fine." Bear in mind one mans fine is another mans turd sandwich when it comes to shifting.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:02 am

Kronos wrote:Yes, I just run into DI2 hell as I'm upgrading my 6700 10 speed to 6770 at present. No more tricks and witchcraft of getting away with using a 6870 rear deraileur anymore. You used to be able to for a while, and then there was a while where you could use them without updating the firmware. However, Shimano have fully firmware bricked out 10 speed users :evil: Never mind that anyway I sourced myself a 6770 front and rear derailleur.
It was never possible to bodge a 10-sp. system with a 6870 RD. What you *could* do for a while was relatively cheaply upgrade to 11-sp. by only replacing the rear derailleur. It was never supposed to, but for a short while the 11-sp. RD would talk to the 10-sp. FD. That accidental compatibilty has since been removed.
I should note, the rest of the electronic components seem still to be compatible. You just need to get the derailleurs, which is getting increasingly more difficult as 6770 DI2 stuff ages out. It appears from all my knowledge available on the matter that its only the derailleurs that make DI2 10 or 11 speed compatible. Except the original 7970 DI2 which no one wants at this point due to age and incompatibility, all of the shifters, junction and control boxes for mountain bikes and road bikes are completely compatible with each other. Not sure if you've covered this just yet, but its just my latest trials in bringing an 07 Trek 1500 SLR out of the dark ages.
There may be some minor limitation of function when mixing road & MTB bits, but yes, for the most part everything is compatible.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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ft_critical
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby ft_critical » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:46 pm

Hello Duck,

Getting Campagnolo Cassettes in appropriate ranges 11-25 is getting harder.

I have many sets of Campagnolo spacers lying around. It would be awesome if I can re-space say an Ultegra or SRAM 10sp cassette with Campagnolo spacers. I know that the first three cogs are fixed for Ultegra and 105, so that might not work as a start point. I assume that the cog width is not significantly different.

Any thoughts in this regard? (PS, I have used Miche cassettes and I was not that impressed with the quality of the metal frankly.)

Many thanks for sharing your experience,

FT

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:15 am

This isn't something I've messed around with to any real extent. The first difficulty is that Campag cassettes, especially 10-sp, are wider than Shimano/SRAM by a fairly decent margin. The second issue is that the spacing is not equal across the cassette. The third issue is that I have a feeling that Campag-pattern freewheel bodies are a smaller diameter than Shimano-pattern, so the necessary varying thickness spacers won't fit on...

What I have found is that it's generally acceptable, if not super perfect, to run a Shimano or SRAM cassette in a Campag system with adequate functionality, but trying to stuff a Campag cassette into a Shimano or SRAM drivetrain simply will not work.

If you're feeling experimental, grab hold of a 4600/HG500 Tiagra cassette; the whole block is pinned into one mass, but with careful use of a punch the pins can be pushed out and all 10 sprockets separated, so you can play around with your spacers to adapt to Campag spacing. Providng the spacers will fit on the hub..... Plus be sure to get the different thickness spacers in the right places, otherwise your tuning will be up the creek.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby ft_critical » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:25 am

Thanks Duck, indeed, I didn't even yet try the spacers on the shimano freehub body I have, so that might be limiting. Thanks for the tip on Tiagra.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:54 pm

OK, so I finally got the chance to play around and find out just how far the capacity limits of the new-generation "Shadow"-type road derailleurs can be pushed.

Last week a customer wheeled his wife's bike in, a 2016-ish Giant Defy, specced with 6800 mechanial Ultegra, with 32T cassette and stock shortie derailleur, and a bag of bits including a XT 11-40 cassette, and a Road Link hanger extender. I took one look and advised that the link might get the sprocket clearance, but there was no way the derailleur would carry the necessary chain for that gear range, and a new derailleur would be required. It so happened that I had an R7000 shortie on the shelf, which even for a "short" derailleur has a lot more play room than any traditional derailleur (R8000 Ultegra and R9100 Dura-Ace share the same geometry, in case you're wondering).

As a matter of routine, I tried the 6800 with the Road link, and completely as expected, it got the clearance but couldn't carry anywhere near enough chain. So off they came and placed aside, and the R7000 came out to play. Officially rated to 30T in short form, I thought I'd test just how much clearance this baby can muster. Well guess what, with the B-adjuster screw cranked right in, it just gets enough clearance for the 40T, although it does crash sprocket & jockey wheel teeth a bit while shifting on or off that gear. so realistically a 38T, if such a thing existed would be its maximum sprocket allowance.

So that's the first test, but could it handle the two chainrings as well? The "short" cage on these new models is damn close in length to a previous-generation "medium" or "long" (they're the same thing) cage, but as it turns out, not long enough. Running between the 11T top and 35T second gear over the two rings got pretty marginal, so really the biggest cassette you can run on a shortie with double rings is 34T, but you could stretch it to 36T with a close-ratio CX-style ring set.

As a matter of elimination, I tried it with the Road Link, but it made no difference, it still couldn't wrap enough chain slack.

Nothing for it then but to order in a "long" aka "medium" R8000 derailleur. with that in hand, first thing was to size it up next to the shortie. shimano claim a bit more clearance with this version, and it's immediately obvious that the upper body is about 5mm longer. Fitting it proved it to be considerably happier getting under the 40, with a bit of room left on the B-screw. I have doubts as to whether it has enough in reserve to play nicely with a 42T.

So with clearance sorted, that just left chain length, and I am pleased to report that it does the 16T difference plus the huge cassette comfortably, but again, even if you can get the clearance under a 42T, it won't do wide-range doubles, but will be OK with CX-type rings or 1x.

So, condensed version: R7000/8000/9100 short will fit up to 36T with a 1x, possibly 40 depending on the frame's hanger length, or 34T with a 2x.
Longer version will accommodate 40T with any combination 2x, and may fit 42T with a 1x, again, hanger length may make it more of a possibility on some frames than others.


With that bike sorted, the customer returned with his own bike, a 2018 Defy, specced from the box with R8050 Ultegra Di2, 34T cassette and long derailleur, and the same model cassette. Went together an absolute charm, as the Di2 variant has exactly the same derailleur geometry as the mechanical version.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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cyclotaur
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby cyclotaur » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:50 pm

^^ Interesting stuff Duck - thanks for your info on this thread.

:)
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby MichaelB » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:12 pm

I’m about to trail a 10-42 and 36/46 with the RX800 RD on the Slate.

Chain wrap is actually less than the current 11-34 and 50-34 setup, so should work OK going on the above !!

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:08 pm

I'll be keen to see how you go with the 42T, 'cos I reckon it could be marginal. You will probably also find the shifting will lose some crispness at the top end of the cassette due to the increased gap between the derailleur & sprockets, especially as the chain wears.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby MichaelB » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:17 am

I’ll keep you posted.

It all came about as a set of wheels I got for a bargain had the XD Driver on it. So a quick call to Farceberk landed me a Shimano hub for the whee s as well as a bargain 10-42 XG-1199 cassette.
Why not try it. If it works , great, if not, go back to what I had

:-)

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby MichaelB » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:54 am

Run into something that doesn't quite make sense.

I'm looking at a new cassette for my Cannondale Slate, and looking at the M8000 cassettes. Noticed that the 11-40 is OK for 2x, whilst the 11-42 and 11-46 are 1x only :?:

How does the cassette differ in whether it's 1x or 2x ? Subtle ramping changes ?

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:27 pm

Nothing to do with the cassette, it's derailleur capacity. Although both standard and shorter versions of the M8000 derailleur will fit the 46T sprocket (upper body is the same for both), it's often forgotten that M8000 (and M9000 XTR for that matter) have the option of a 3x crankset. The 42 and 46 cassettes could both be used in a 2x setup, but would need the long cage derailleur, as the total difference is actually less than the 3x with 11-40.

The other potential concern dictating the recommendations is hub durability; the larger sprockets exert much higher stress on the ratchets, and this becomes further amplified with smaller front rings.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby MichaelB » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:39 am

Ah, ok then - so for my setup with the RX RD, it’s all good. Thanks

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:05 am

Most likely OK... As we've covered previously, in capacity terms the RX/GRX derailleur should be fine with the 42 (but won't have the clearance to fit the 46) and a not-too-large front ring difference. The hub may prove to be the weak point, as it may not be rated to handle the torque of such a large sprocket.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby MichaelB » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:36 am

Already running 36/46 and 10-42 cassette without issue.
2nd set of wheels is Shimano hub, so will go for the 11-40 or even 11-36 and use them for not so steep rides.

Thanks

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Calvin27 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:19 am

Thought I might use this instead of clutter more threads.

Tell me about 9 speed road compatibility. Mate has a very old 9 speed (105 I think) and we want to chuck about a 32t cassette on it.

What 9 speed RDs are compatible? I'm thinking a Sora RD-R3000-GS should fit in easily but not sure as it's quite a gap in the build year.
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:42 pm

3500 & R3000 will both take 32T. R3000 will fit 34T. GS version is not necessary unless using a triple up front.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Calvin27 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:03 pm

Duck! wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:42 pm
3500 & R3000 will both take 32T. R3000 will fit 34T. GS version is not necessary unless using a triple up front.
Thanks I was more thinking shifter compatibility - are all 9 speed sti shifters cross compatible?
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:13 pm

Yes, all Shimano 9-sp. plays together. (Which is mentioned in the very first post....)
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Calvin27 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:16 pm

Duck! wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:13 pm
Yes, all Shimano 9-sp. plays together. (Which is mentioned in the very first post....)
Haha having another coffee now - cheers for the help!
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby MichaelB » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:48 am

Need to change from a 160mm front disc to a 180mm .

ATM, there is a SM-MA90-F160P/S fitted, but can only seem to find a SM-MA90-R180P/S online.

Is there anything wrong with using the rear one in a front application ?

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Duck! » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:50 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:48 am
Is there anything wrong with using the rear one in a front application ?
Yes, it'll put the caliper too high over the rotor. Rear IS tabs are placed to enable a 140mm rotor, while front tabs are 160mm minimum, therefore the rear post adaptor is taller. A R160 will be close enough in shape to a F180 to do the trick.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby MichaelB » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:21 pm

Ah, OK, will have a look into sourcing the R160 version then, thanks

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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby Calvin27 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:57 pm

Duck! wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:13 pm
Yes, all Shimano 9-sp. plays together.
Cheers duck, worked a treat - mate can spin like mad now! (Y)
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Re: Duck's Tech - Compatibility Notes

Postby piledhigher » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:20 pm

ImageWP_20191212_14_35_43_Pro_LI by PiledHigher, on Flickr

Obscure freehub, anyone know where I can get one?

















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