Disc Brakes - First Look

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Duck!
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Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby Duck! » Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:14 pm

Typically the traditionalists, Campagnolo have been later to the disc brake party than the competition (who both have mountain bike experience to draw from), but with UCI now allowing them for racing, something had to happen eventually.

The brakes were recently shown at Campagnolo's press launch, and details are not yet available. Currently they're only at prototype stage and wear Campy Tech Lab branding (a special branch of their R&D department) rather than any "proper" Campagnolo or even groupset designation. The brakes will be supplied to sponsored teams through the 2016 season for evaluation, prior to final approval & naming. What is known is that the brakes are produced in both post-mount and flat-mount configurations, compatible with 140 and 160mm rotors, and the levers have both mechanical and electronic shifting models.

Also in the works, and also wearing the Campy Tech Lab labels are new disc brake wheels, in both quick release and through-axle forms.

As yet there is no mention of a public launch date, but with UCI's rules on prototype equipment, they should be available by year's end.

Full details, such as they are, can be seen here.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby hedgehog » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:28 pm

electric shifting models? so are they electric actuated brakes no oil?

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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby hedgehog » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:48 pm

got confused sorry electronic shifting for the gears.

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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby koshari » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:52 pm

I think they would be refering to the gear shifting part being electronic or cable as the linked story speaks of a master cylinder in the levers.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby softy » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:51 pm

Personally i have my doubts about disc brakes, i like tech too. But disc brakes have some hurdles and many thousands of hours of everyday riding before i am willling to dip my toes.

firstly, i do believe there will be a number of big developments in the first 3 to 5 years. I will probably say they will end up with carbon rotors. So i am going to wait till it settles down.

second, disc brakes transfer rotational forces throught the spokes whilst calipers don't. This will put exceptional loading through the front spokes. Yes you can use the MTB argument, but like all road vehicles it will put extreme force as people try to take them to the limit, i predict quicker spoke fatigue.

Third, with the rotor so close to the hub it is also trying to pull the wheel out of the forks, the standard for attachment has not been standardised yet.

fourth, troubles have already occurred with race bikes and short chainstays, this will need to be addressed across different models.

i will be taking a wait and see aproach, calipers still work as do mechanical shifting, buying this stuff is not going to make me faster......

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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby ianganderton » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:19 pm

softy wrote:Personally i have my doubts about disc brakes, i like tech too. But disc brakes have some hurdles and many thousands of hours of everyday riding before i am willling to dip my toes.

firstly, i do believe there will be a number of big developments in the first 3 to 5 years. I will probably say they will end up with carbon rotors. So i am going to wait till it settles down.

second, disc brakes transfer rotational forces throught the spokes whilst calipers don't. This will put exceptional loading through the front spokes. Yes you can use the MTB argument, but like all road vehicles it will put extreme force as people try to take them to the limit, i predict quicker spoke fatigue.

Third, with the rotor so close to the hub it is also trying to pull the wheel out of the forks, the standard for attachment has not been standardised yet.

fourth, troubles have already occurred with race bikes and short chainstays, this will need to be addressed across different models.

i will be taking a wait and see aproach, calipers still work as do mechanical shifting, buying this stuff is not going to make me faster......

Disc brakes are very old tech. All the problems you've described we resolved literally decades ago.

They have not just been used on mountain bikes but also tourers (which means loaded bikes so big forces), cyclocross (lightweight racing frames) and hybrids.

I'm pretty sure the temperatures involved mean carbon is not a good option for the discs.

The design challenges will revolve around aero and lightweight
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby hedgehog » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:54 pm

i'm not much of road bike rider but i would like to know the number of spokes that these disk brake wheels have in the front and the back?

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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby RonK » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:35 pm

inCycle report about Team Roompot-Oranje Peloton's adoption of disc brakes.

I can't help feel that it's a bit contrived - the rider interview is a former mountain biker, and I get the sense that the mechanic is choosing his words very carefully - with the boss Erik Breukink standing right alongside him...

Interesting at 4:26 to see how much the fork flexes under braking from only the forces of inertia, under no load at all. Hmmmm.

Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...

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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby hedgehog » Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:29 am

saw the vid ronk interesting,counted the spokes in the front,over 20 i think,don't know much about flexing and braking point of metals or carbon yield.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby ianganderton » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:16 am

hedgehog wrote:saw the vid ronk interesting,counted the spokes in the front,over 20 i think,don't know much about flexing and braking point of metals or carbon yield.
cheers tony


24 spoke will be pretty common. Works well with disc lacing

The extra frame weight will be to do with the additional forces involved. I think the fork in particular. Disc brakes generate huge forces down at the end of the fork leg near the hub, a relatively thin piece of tubing at the end of a long lever where calliper brake apply forces at the crown which is a big chunk of metal at the pivot point.

I see road bike fork design as the big challenge for the manufacturers as it's also something that hasn't had to be dealt with much by the mountain bike designers as nearly all bikes use suspension forks.

Dealing with the additional force in a different place while tuning flex to make bikes comfortable enough (comfortable bikes reduce fatigue making athletes faster). That's going to be hard
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby koshari » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:17 am

softy wrote:
Third, with the rotor so close to the hub it is also trying to pull the wheel out of the forks, the standard for attachment has not been standardised yet.



i would say that 12mm TA's would pretty much be the established standard if not using QR with diagonal dropouts. cant see a new solution come into the mix.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby ianganderton » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:31 am

I've had lots of bikes with QR and disc brakes and never ever ever had a problem
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby MichaelB » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:26 pm

There are some very interesting opinions that seem to be largely unfounded and have no real evidence of engineering behind them.

I've been a long time disc user for the road and have never had any of the issues that people above have described....

Anyway, interesting release by Campy, and the cost/weight will be an important point in the end.

The disc market is now getting crowded.

SRAM/Shimano established, with eTap hydro coming, but there is also Rotor & FSA on the fringes and now Campy have finally shown their hand.

The rush is coming :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby Duck! » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:41 pm

MichaelB wrote:There are some very interesting opinions that seem to be largely unfounded and have no real evidence of engineering behind them.

I've been a long time disc user for the road and have never had any of the issues that people above have described....

The "issues" that get raised always seem to come from people who have never ridden disc brakes....
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby Thoglette » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:44 pm

ianganderton wrote:I've had lots of bikes with QR and disc brakes and never ever ever had a problem


The plural of anecdote is not data. The data has existed for many years, with recalls the result for some of the sillier implementaitons (e.g. see SheldonBrown)
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby Duck! » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:46 pm

ianganderton wrote:
softy wrote: I will probably say they will end up with carbon rotors.

I'm pretty sure the temperatures involved mean carbon is not a good option for the discs.

There was discussion on Rotorburn (MTB forum) a year or two ago about some American mob who introduced carbon rotors. A couple of guys got a pair, rode them for a while & dismissed them as crap. Wear wasn't brilliant, but they just had no bite, probably because they couldn't get hot enough.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby Duck! » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:49 pm

Thoglette wrote:
ianganderton wrote:I've had lots of bikes with QR and disc brakes and never ever ever had a problem


The plural of anecdote is not data. The data has existed for many years, with recalls the result for some of the sillier implementaitons (e.g. see SheldonBrown)

Data has to come from somewhere, including anecdotes. Typical of human nature, for every negative report there will usually be a vastly greater number of non-incidents that go unreported (because there's no incident to report!)
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby Thoglette » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:53 pm

Duck! wrote:The "issues" that get raised always seem to come from people who have never ridden disc brakes....

I'm old enough to remember when disc brakes on cars were the exception rather than the rule. It took a long time to sort out all the issues (especially for hand brakes)

So I'm not surprised that discs-on-bikes have taken a decade (or two) to iron out the bugs. I'm almost at the point of considering them for my next bike.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby koshari » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:54 pm

ianganderton wrote:I've had lots of bikes with QR and disc brakes and never ever ever had a problem

I also have a bike with qr and discs which hasnt presented a problem however is doesnt mean that certain risks may not have increased in probability. My bike has lawyer tabs on the dropout. I suspect i also havnt braked as hard as the pelaton does. There's also talk that some riders file the lawyer tabs down the make changing wheels quicker.

Regardless there is research that supports the arguement that due to the increased rotational forces on the axle probability of the qr axle popping out increases.
Of course innovations such as diagonal dropouts and lawyer tabs likely go a long way in addressing this.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby koshari » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:57 pm

Duck! wrote:
MichaelB wrote:There are some very interesting opinions that seem to be largely unfounded and have no real evidence of engineering behind them.

I've been a long time disc user for the road and have never had any of the issues that people above have described....

The "issues" that get raised always seem to come from people who have never ridden disc brakes....

Possibly engineers? Who know where they come from but i for one are glad that people are indeed considering them.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby Thoglette » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:58 pm

Duck! wrote:Data has to come from somewhere, including anecdotes. Typical of human nature, for every negative report there will usually be a vastly greater number of non-incidents that go unreported (because there's no incident to report!)


Exactly. Anecdotes are a good place to start framing your search for potentially useful data but that's about it.

(I'm pretty excited that Campy are into disc as it indicates they consider the real risks to be quite low - indeed that they believe rim brakes are going the way of cottered cranks and steel rims)
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby koshari » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:06 pm

Anyway the 2 versions i have looked at being the campy development discs and the team orange sram setups both use through axles. So there must be some merit in them.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby biker jk » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:36 pm

koshari wrote:Anyway the 2 versions i have looked at being the campy development discs and the team orange sram setups both use through axles. So there must be some merit in them.


That's because the UCI has mandated 12mm thru-axles front and back.

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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby ianganderton » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:17 pm

koshari wrote:
ianganderton wrote:I've had lots of bikes with QR and disc brakes and never ever ever had a problem

I also have a bike with qr and discs which hasnt presented a problem however is doesnt mean that certain risks may not have increased in probability. My bike has lawyer tabs on the dropout. I suspect i also havnt braked as hard as the pelaton does. There's also talk that some riders file the lawyer tabs down the make changing wheels quicker.

Regardless there is research that supports the arguement that due to the increased rotational forces on the axle probability of the qr axle popping out increases.
Of course innovations such as diagonal dropouts and lawyer tabs likely go a long way in addressing this.


I've filed off the lawyer tabs in the past - no problemo

My fat bike has a QR front wheel with 203 rotor. It generates huge braking forces because of the massive tyres. Firstly there is the enormous rotational weight of the tyre, and then there is the enormous grip afforded by so much tyre in touch with the ground. It requires more brake force than anything I have ever encountered. I've done some big descents on it and some pretty fierce braking.

No problemo with the QR

Applying this logic to the riders in the peleton. They have extremely lightweight wheels and a small contact patch. It's going to be difficult to generate large braking forces compared with other styles of bike including fully loaded tourer or 29er Mtb.

Disc brakes are old technology and have been used in extremis for decades. The difficulty is adapting it to road racing now that it is being made 'legal'. As well as the fork issues I previously mentioned there are design issues with cramming the brake reservoir into the conventional brake/gear lever assembly.
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Re: Disc Brakes - First Look

Postby softy » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:42 pm

I agree discs are a lot more than a gimick, but a game changer no!

i have a bike with hydro discs, and yes they feel nice, but so does DI2 durace. Nice but makes very little difference in real performance.

It has been proven, they give little or no advantage in dry conditions. It is all about feel and product tech sales.

if they are so good, are this team in the vid killing all the downhill sections? Have they got an advantage?

I bet not! You have a wheel on the front of the bike that is less aero, the question is, is the brakes worth the small watt losses?

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