Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

Tim wrote:On my few try-out loaded rides I have to admit the 26-32 combination makes for very hard work up any sort of hill.
I've just ordered a 12-36 cassette (Shimano HG61) from Chain Reaction. $35.00 at the moment, not bad price.
Am considering a 24t chainring, probably a steel Stronglight model. I'm just not sure that the Sugino chainring bolts will fit. Failing that I'll probably buy a Sugino 24t aluminium ring off Ebay. I do remember reading that aluminium granny gears wear very quickly so would prefer steel, just not sure of the Stronglight compatability. I wonder if all 74 BCD rings are a standard fit?

No idea on the compatibility. I think you should just give it a try and share your results. Maybe email Noel from Vivente and see what he recommends? 26-32 really isn't low enough when you have 30kg of bike + gear even for pretty small hills.

From another thread where I mentioned I had been suffering serious knee pain on longer rides, RonK recommended a minimum of 22-32 gearing for a loaded touring bike for hills to reduce knee strain. So I'll definitely be looking into this (and other solutions) once I get back to Oz in a couple of weeks. Agonising knee pain every afternoon basically ruined my tour, even after trying to be proactive by getting a bike fit done and seeing a well known podiatrist... I think a 12-36 cassette with a 24T steel chainring should be more sufficient.

Hi elStado

Have you got your knee problems sorted out? I have just bought a Vivente as well - I think from the same place. And after only 300km on it, for the first time in my life I have knee pain from cycling. I have been playing around with the setup but I can't seem to get it right. Did you get knee pain only after loading the bike up or were you getting hints of it before the trip?

Amalasuntha wrote:Hi elStado

Have you got your knee problems sorted out? I have just bought a Vivente as well - I think from the same place. And after only 300km on it, for the first time in my life I have knee pain from cycling. I have been playing around with the setup but I can't seem to get it right. Did you get knee pain only after loading the bike up or were you getting hints of it before the trip?

Hi Amalasuntha

No I've still got the knee issues and I haven't had a chance to see anyone about it as I am still in Germany. However I have been riding around the local region unloaded for shorter distances (30-40km each time) and it's been fine. I've also been strapping my knee (as instructed by my podiatrist) if my knee is feeling a bit sore to reduce further pain/damage.

I had some minor knee pain after some longer rides before I owned the VWR, so it's not just this bike. However what happened was that I loved riding the VWR so much, especially when I first got it and I was training for touring, was that my KM suddenly when up quite a lot (e.g. 15km rides to 60km rides). My bike fit was also not very good and the seat post was slipping down without my knowledge (fixed this by taking the post out and cleaning it thoroughly to remove the grease), so this combined with a few long rides resulted in quite bad knee pain which took a week to settle down afterwards.

My advice:
-Use lower gears, spin don't mash.
-Take as little gear/weight as possible.
-Ramp up your KMs gradually.. don't go from 15km to 60km rides suddenly like I did, it's a recipe for disaster.
-Get a bike fit done, either yourself or professionally (my saddle height was about 6mm lower than it should have been, putting it up greatly reduced the onset of knee pain even with a fully loaded bike. My cleats were also too far forwards).

I'm having exactly the same problem with the seat post! I rode home in the Monday storm two weeks ago and it was such hard going I didn't realise my seat had dropped literally several inches during the ride. I have adjusted it up and I'm sure that it has slipped again. I will do as you say and clean the post.

I don't think my original fit was great - which makes me concerned that I might have ended with the wrong size frame. However I think the biggest mistake was that I tried out the shimano pedals it came with. I think this might be what triggered the knee issue. I have swapped these over to my old Time pedals and I am not noticing knee pain during the ride - just after it now.

Just have to get this sorted as I love this bike.

Look forward to reading more about your trip on your blog when you get back.

elStado wrote: No idea on the compatibility. I think you should just give it a try and share your results. Maybe email Noel from Vivente and see what he recommends? 26-32 really isn't low enough when you have 30kg of bike + gear even for pretty small hills.

From another thread where I mentioned I had been suffering serious knee pain on longer rides, RonK recommended a minimum of 22-32 gearing for a loaded touring bike for hills to reduce knee strain. So I'll definitely be looking into this (and other solutions) once I get back to Oz in a couple of weeks. Agonising knee pain every afternoon basically ruined my tour, even after trying to be proactive by getting a bike fit done and seeing a well known podiatrist... I think a 12-36 cassette with a 24T steel chainring should be more sufficient.

Ronks advice is sound.
Just be aware when you start adding teeth any where on gears you "may" have to include in your sums the price
of a new (longer) chain and longer cage rear derailleur.
I think the 36T on the rear cassette needs a mega range rear derailleur.
For me it was easier to change the front chainring as my 20 inch wheels meant a longer than medium derailleur would be in danger of touching any debris on the ground.
My lowest gear is approx 16.7 inch's which is pretty low but I'm still susceptible to knee pain the minute I forget myself
and start lugging gears instead of spinning to a cadence in the 90's (rpm).
Towing my trailer means pushing up many hills or suffering later.
Check out Sheldons calculator for some fun.
http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Amalasuntha wrote:I'm having exactly the same problem with the seat post! I rode home in the Monday storm two weeks ago and it was such hard going I didn't realise my seat had dropped literally several inches during the ride. I have adjusted it up and I'm sure that it has slipped again. I will do as you say and clean the post.

Yep I also had this issue, on the first weekend I had the bike I did about 100km of riding only noticing, after my knees started hurting on the ride home, that my saddle had slipped down almost 2cm from where it was originally positioned. The issue is caused by the smooth seat post and seat tube, especially if there is some grease on the seat post. I spoke to Noel McFarlane from Vivente about this issue and he stressed that if the post is slipping you need to take it out and thoroughly clean BOTH the seat post and the seat tube (use a clean rag and a screwdriver to stuff it in and spin it around) with some grease cutting solvent of sorts. This fixed the issue for me straight away. The store I bought it from instead told me to use a shim from a aluminium can to make it fit tighter - this didn't work for me though and the cleaning was far easier and effective.

I don't think my original fit was great - which makes me concerned that I might have ended with the wrong size frame. However I think the biggest mistake was that I tried out the shimano pedals it came with. I think this might be what triggered the knee issue. I have swapped these over to my old Time pedals and I am not noticing knee pain during the ride - just after it now.

Off the top of my head, I'm ~178cm with ~81cm inseam. The fellow at the store fitted me to a medium VWR with STI drop bars. I've had a 'professional' bike fit done and the fitter didn't have any issues with the frame size. However we did find that the original seat post was too short, only 250mm, which meant that at the correct extension it was above the minimum inset mark. The easy solution to this was to contact Vivente and have a longer 350mm seat post sent out to remedy this. I asked the bike shop I bought the VWR from but they only had posts for sale, not to swap.

The store which assembled my bike, Quantum Bicycles, also had the head stem on a downward angle which was flipped around during my bike fit. The result was a more upright and comfortable position while sitting on the bike. From the pictures on the Vivente website it appears that the head should have been angled upright from the start as this is a touring bike, not a racing bike.

Just have to get this sorted as I love this bike.

Yeah, it's a really nice bike. I've been smashing it along all sorts of bumpy roads and forest trails in the area and it has handled it very well. It's nice to have such a tough, versatile and capable bike.

Look forward to reading more about your trip on your blog when you get back.

I will be doing some big review updates and new articles once I get back to Australia and settled in. So stay tuned.

Tim wrote:On my few try-out loaded rides I have to admit the 26-32 combination makes for very hard work up any sort of hill.
I've just ordered a 12-36 cassette (Shimano HG61) from Chain Reaction. $35.00 at the moment, not bad price.
Am considering a 24t chainring, probably a steel Stronglight model. I'm just not sure that the Sugino chainring bolts will fit. Failing that I'll probably buy a Sugino 24t aluminium ring off Ebay. I do remember reading that aluminium granny gears wear very quickly so would prefer steel, just not sure of the Stronglight compatability. I wonder if all 74 BCD rings are a standard fit?

How did you get on with this Tim?
Which derailleur did you have to use?
What joys of front chainring did you decide on?
Did you need to lengthen your chain?

I ended up cancelling the order for the 12-36 cassette. At the time I didn't realise 36t was a larger cog than standard until I read up on it. Shimano techdocs also only recommend these cassettes for one or two particular models of freehub. Anticipating problems I just ordered an 11-34 and a Sugino 24t chain ring. Still waiting on delivery. Will let you know how it goes. Planning a short loaded tour within the next couple of weeks.

For what it is worth my Surly Long Haul Trucker came with an Andel 26-36-48t crankset and a Shimano Deore XT CS-M770 9-speed with clusters of 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34t. It has worked well for me on my recent tour where I climbed grades of 11% (short ones) fully loaded up ... talking water for example in excess of 20 kg.

Andrew

Aushiker wrote:For what it is worth my Surly Long Haul Trucker came with an Andel 26-36-48t crankset and a Shimano Deore XT CS-M770 9-speed with clusters of 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34t. It has worked well for me on my recent tour where I climbed grades of 11% (short ones) fully loaded up ... talking water for example in excess of 20 kg.

Andrew

It didn't work for me when I took a LHT on the Giro Tasmania. Long 10% and 10%+ grades with the bike loaded were absolute murder.

Hi Tim - can you keep us posted on how you go with altering the gearing on the VWR?

After reading the discussions of perfect touring gearing I am keen to drop the lowest ratio available on the VWR, but I'm not sure that it's possible without changing the derailleurs. It sounds like the rear cassette is already stretched out to the maximum range the rear derailleur can handle, and I suspect the front derailleur is too. The tech doco on the front derailleur, that came with my bike, says the front chainwheel tooth difference should be 20 teeth or less, and I think the rear derailleur has 22T on the front as maximum difference it can handle in its specs - but unfortunately for some reason I don't have that part covered in the papers they gave me with the bike. If that's the case I think we're pretty stuck in terms of changing chain rings, or sprockets. Can anyone confirm this? And if so, what would recommendations be for alternative derailleurs etc?

You've got me worried now. Just had a look at the RD and I think, that is hope, it'll open enough to fit the 34t cog. I have heard of people fitting slightly larger cassettes than Shimano recommend on other derailleurs, hope it works. The FD seems to have enough room for a smaller chainring (so the chain won't bottom out on the bottom of the FD cage) and with a bit of luck the RD can take up the chain slack on a 24t chainring, again, I hope so. Another option is to fit a 46t outer chainring and keep the difference between inner and outer rings at 22 teeth. Will let you know how it goes. Parts should be here soon, they left the States last Tuesday.

Tim wrote:I ended up cancelling the order for the 12-36 cassette. At the time I didn't realise 36t was a larger cog than standard until I read up on it. Shimano techdocs also only recommend these cassettes for one or two particular models of freehub. Anticipating problems I just ordered an 11-34 and a Sugino 24t chain ring. Still waiting on delivery. Will let you know how it goes. Planning a short loaded tour within the next couple of weeks.

I know from having to choose a new derailleur a while ago that the 36T of the cassette required a Mega range derailleur
like the Shimano XT M770 specifically designed for Mega range cassettes.
I imagine XT hubs should be fine(?) but havnt delved into it passed the derailleur due to the fact with my 20 inch wheels
anything longer than medium cage would be nearly scrapping the ground.
Alas I had to stick with a 32T max as a large cog on my cassette paired with a medium (GS) rear derailleur (XT M772).

Hi All.
From another thread.
I think I've decided on a 24t chain ring giving 20.3 gear inches from standard 21.9. I like this set up because in these early days I'm finding the 11/32 cassette to be nicely spaced.
Haven't sorted out the seat post yet But I'm workin on it!
Cheers Rog..

rog on a bike wrote:Hi All.
From another thread.
I think I've decided on a 24t chain ring giving 20.3 gear inches from standard 21.9. I like this set up because in these early days I'm finding the 11/32 cassette to be nicely spaced.
Haven't sorted out the seat post yet But I'm workin on it!
Cheers Rog..

I've had the same problem with my Moulton seatpost since I replaced it.
I've added a home made shim made from a fizzy drink can.
Its done the trick but wasnt as elegant a solution as I would have wanted
in a perfect world.
Still its not bad as my seatpost came with a rubber collar (I imagine to help keep water out(?))
so my shim is invisible.

Don't stress Tim - It sounds like the 24T CR and the new cassette will work just fine. I have been in touch with Noel (from VWR) and in his efficient manner he got back to me with a complete response within 12 hours of the original query. If you have the model with the sugino cranks he says that the derailleurs will handle a 24T CR and the 11-34 cassette. He even broke down the improvement for each component - he says the 24T CR will give you an 8% improvement and the 34 sprocket 6%. So I might start out with the CR and decide on the cassette later. He will have the 24T CRs in stock in December. Still be interested to hear how you go with the upgrade and what your thoughts are for loaded hill-climbing with the new configuration.

Selena

Best to remove the grease from the seatpost. If slipping persists, use a little threadlocker, or some carbon fibre assembly paste.

Amalasuntha wrote:Don't stress Tim - It sounds like the 24T CR and the new cassette will work just fine. I have been in touch with Noel (from VWR) and in his efficient manner he got back to me with a complete response within 12 hours of the original query. If you have the model with the sugino cranks he says that the derailleurs will handle a 24T CR and the 11-34 cassette. He even broke down the improvement for each component - he says the 24T CR will give you an 8% improvement and the 34 sprocket 6%. So I might start out with the CR and decide on the cassette later. He will have the 24T CRs in stock in December. Still be interested to hear how you go with the upgrade and what your thoughts are for loaded hill-climbing with the new configuration.

Good to know, thanks. I've been madly checking op on derailleur capacities on the Techdocs and then running out to the bike to see if I reckoned the various rings and cassettes would fit. I can rest easy now. Noel is especially good with the after sales advice.

Rog on a bike wrote....
...I think I've decided on a 24t chain....

Rog, where are you getting the 24t chainring from, and what brand? The other guys, RonK and so forth recommend steel rather than aluminium. I just wasn't sure the steel Stronglight rings I looked at would fit. They probably would but I just had a niggling doubt so stuck with Sugino aluminium.

Tim, is there a forging mark on the back of your Sugino crank?

There certainly is Ollie.
It says "Forged", 170 and a few other symbols and markings.

Tim wrote: and a few other symbols and markings.

Free Masons and secret societies working in the Shimano factory?

Tim and I also.
In pursuit of originality I've gone with the sugino, through my LBS. The 24t looks like coming in under $50.00 and he had an 11/34 cluster for a buck or so cheaper.
In the interest of "Local support" I chose to go this way. The difference was only a couple of schooners anyway and I also like to have a local bike shop around.
I'll let you know how it goes
Cheers Rog
PS thanks to Ron and rifraf.

Tim wrote:There certainly is Ollie.
It says "Forged", 170 and a few other symbols and markings.

OK, 170 is the length. My crankset has a mark "XD2" - does yours have that?

Nope. Mine has RD2L and TL stamped in a circle. It also has an S symbol, for Sugino I'd assume.

rifraf wrote:Free Masons and secret societies working in the Shimano factory?

There is also a goats head and a pair of gumboots symbol stamped in a very inconspicuous spot.