LTH or Slasa??

LTH or Slasa??

Postby Daggo » Tue May 28, 2013 2:27 pm

Hi Guys.

Just joined the forum. Have had a couple of touring bikes and been on a few looong rides (solo only) but life, marriage and kids took over and I got fat! The spark has been re-ignited and I am casting about for a new bike and maybe some of the other flash toys I can get that weren't around last decade.

I had decided on a LHT and started doing my research and getting pricing etc. But one of the guys I was dealing with asked me if I'd be interested in a "Salsa", as that what he uses. Which means I could have a real look at a real bike before buying. Having not come across this model I did some more research appears they have a couple of touring models. Haven't ask about pricing yet as I didn't know if I wanted to wonder down a different path yet. So the reason for my post! Anyone have one or have any idea about them?

And while I am asking questions. I was offered 2 two prices for an LHT one with stock brakes ane the other with disc brakes. I have never used a bike with discs and am wondering if they are worth the extra $200 in price or if it is worth having disc brakes at all.

Thanks.

Daggo.
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by BNA » Wed May 29, 2013 10:01 am

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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Cheesewheel » Wed May 29, 2013 10:01 am

I have a LHT with rim brakes and I would gladly pay and extra $200 to change them to discs (but it would cost me a lot more than that since I would also have to upgrade the fork on my model).

The advantage of disc brakes are that they have better stopping power and avoid rim failure ( Google "rim sidewall failure" or http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-026/000.html ).

The extra stopping power becomes an issue when you you are carrying a bit of extra weight. You really notice its absence when you are going down a hill or something.

Also regarding the LHT or Salsa, the main difference in my opinion is whether you want a steel (LHT) or aluminium (Salsa) frame.

In retrospect ( :cry: ), I would tend to favour an aluminium frame since you don't have to worry about corrosion so much, but to each their own
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby GregLR » Wed May 29, 2013 6:33 pm

Daggo wrote:In retrospect ( :cry: ), I would tend to favour an aluminium frame since you don't have to worry about corrosion so much, but to each their own

The Salsa 'Vaya' (CroMoly) and Vaya 'Travel' (stainless steel) have steel frames, not aluminium - click on the "Frame Tech" tab on these pages http://salsacycles.com/bikes/vaya_3 & http://salsacycles.com/bikes/vaya_travel

The issues that occur to me re the choice between the LHT and the Vaya3 are (1) whether the Vaya frame is as robust, and therefore as stable, as the LHT frame in carrying a heavy touring load; and (2) is the lowest gear on the Vaya (30 front/32 rear = 25.3 gear inches) sufficiently low if you are touring with that load in hilly or mountainous country - the fully-built LHT has a lowest gear of 26/34=20.6" (now corrected) - see http://surlybikes.com/bikes/long_haul_trucker ).

I have an LHT - I chose it because I was looking for stability in carrying a touring load, having for 20 years used a custom-built steel touring bike (Columbus SL tubing) that sometimes felt unstable when loaded, in that it you could feel it sway (ie, feel like a 'noodle') due to the weight in the rear panniers (it wasn't made to carry front panniers - it was for credit card touring). I built up the LHT with my own choice of components - it has a 26/32=22" lowest gear and also has Tektro CR720 wide-profile {cyclo-cross style) cantilever brakes that give lots of stopping power.

Greg
Last edited by GregLR on Wed May 29, 2013 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Cheesewheel » Wed May 29, 2013 7:00 pm

GregLR wrote:
Daggo wrote:In retrospect ( :cry: ), I would tend to favour an aluminium frame since you don't have to worry about corrosion so much, but to each their own

The Salsa 'Vaya' (CroMoly) and Vaya 'Travel' (stainless steel) have steel frames, not aluminium - click on the "Frame Tech" tab on these pages http://salsacycles.com/bikes/vaya_3 & http://salsacycles.com/bikes/vaya_travel


my bad

I was thinking of their fatbikes
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby thecaptn » Wed May 29, 2013 7:09 pm

I like the look of of the Vaya but I'd put a tripple on it.
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby GregLR » Wed May 29, 2013 8:54 pm

thecaptn - the Vaya 3 (red frame) does have a triple. It's the white Vaya 2 that has a SRAM Apex double crankset & drivetrain, with a 34/36=25.5" lowest gear - only marginally above the lowest gear of the Vaya 3, but I agree with you that a triple would be preferable.

Cheesewheel - sorry, I wasn't familiar with the Salsa fat bikes - I've now seen an example (Mukluk 2).

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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby thecaptn » Wed May 29, 2013 9:47 pm

the Vaya 3 is a very similar setup to how my cannondale T1 came standard only I changed the groupset from 105 to STR which gave me 36 on the back and I think it's a 24 on the front. Eats hills 8)
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Daggo » Wed May 29, 2013 11:31 pm

Does anyone here have a Salsa or seen one?

And then I saw the thread on the Randonneur. So got three choices fighting for my attention now. Got a few months to make up my mind before I can scrap the cash together. Which made me dig out my last tourer (1999 vintage) with a view to getting it into a working state.

Thanks.

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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby GregLR » Fri May 31, 2013 2:04 pm

hi Daggo

As I mentioned on another thread re the Vivente 'World Randonneur', a good friend of mine recently bought a Vaya 3 (57cm size) - from Pushys bike shop in Canberra (Fyshwick) ( http://www.pushysbikewarehouse.com.au/about-pushys/ ). They had to order in his size and he's had it for about two weeks two but I haven't seen it 'in the flesh' as yet (though have seen a photo of him on it). But I did see one in the flesh at the Pushys shop (size 54cm I think) just before my friend ordered his.

Also, it's worth mentioning in passing that Pushys had about half a dozen of the Vivente WR in stock a few weeks ago in various sizes and handlebar options (butterfly bar & drop bar) and in the Ritchey 'break-away' separable frame version - http://www.pushysbikewarehouse.com.au/vivente-bikes/ . They also had in stock a 26" Surly 'LHT' also in 54cm.

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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Daggo » Fri May 31, 2013 3:49 pm

Right thanks Greg. I am a bit far away to come down and have a look which is a bit of a bummer. That sounds like a good bike shop, heaps of stock. Do you know how much your mate paid for the Vaya?

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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Mike Ayling » Fri May 31, 2013 4:05 pm

Cheesewheel wrote:I have a LHT with rim brakes and I would gladly pay and extra $200 to change them to discs (but it would cost me a lot more than that since I would also have to upgrade the fork on my model).

The advantage of disc brakes are that they have better stopping power and avoid rim failure ( Google "rim sidewall failure" or http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-026/000.html ).

The extra stopping power becomes an issue when you you are carrying a bit of extra weight. You really notice its absence when you are going down a hill or something.



I have a LHT and confirm that the canti brakes have their limitations. I am considering upgrading to V brakes. You will require a suitable drop bar brake lever as the V brakes require a different amount of cable pull to the cantis but you should manage a change over for less than $200 for Diacompe levers and two decent V brakes.

Next time you don't know where to surf on the net go to the Thorn tandem sales site and read their take on disc brakes versus V brakes for tandem use. Filter out the sales hype and consider their arguments.

Disclaimer: I own a Thorn tandem (paid full retail price) and have V brakes on CSS(type of ceramic ) rims and these brakes are awesome. We do not have or need a drag brake using this configuration.
Also the CSS rims are very slow wearing.

Mike
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby GregLR » Fri May 31, 2013 11:39 pm

Daggo wrote:...Do you know how much your mate paid for the Vaya? Daggo.

No, I haven't asked - but I presume it was about $1850 which was what I think Pushys had on the Vaya 3 they had on the floor, which is consistent with the price advertised on this website of a shop in Adelaide http://www.bmcr.com.au/salsa.html

I just happened across this useful page, though the text dates to October 2011, listing the touring bikes available in Australia:
http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2011/ ... bike-list/ Some of these, such as the Cannondale models, would no longer be offered in Australia.

Mike Ayling wrote:I have a LHT and confirm that the canti brakes have their limitations. I am considering upgrading to V brakes. You will require a suitable drop bar brake lever as the V brakes require a different amount of cable pull to the cantis but you should manage a change over for less than $200 for Diacompe levers and two decent V brakes.

I had the Dia Compe 287V road brake levers & V brakes on my old tourer for a long time from about 2000, to good effect, before I changed back to cantilevers in 2007 (Shimano R550, which worked well at first but not so well now). For several years before starting to use the Dia Compe levers (ie, in the late 90s) I used Shimano non-STI road bike brake levers and ran the cable via an elliptical roller (instead of through the usual noodle) that enhanced the cable pull. This adjuster also worked well. A friend uses a mechanism called Travel Agent to do much the same thing (can't remember who made the one I used).

As mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, I use Tektro CR720 wide profile cantilevers on my LHT that I built up in 2011, in combination with Shimano R600 Ultegra non-STI brake levers. The Tektro cantilevers were recommended by Chris Juden, technical officer of the UK Cyclists' Touring Club (CTC). These Tektro brakes work very well with the Shimano levers, but they were a real pain to fit.

Greg
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Daggo » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:55 pm

Thanks Greg. That's what I needed a clear comparision. Still torn between which one of the three!

Matt.
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby RonK » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:29 am

Daggo wrote:Thanks Greg. That's what I needed a clear comparision. Still torn between which one of the three!

Matt.

Well, read this thread, and the original thread it links to.
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby GregLR » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:39 pm

This is a bit off-topic but I thought I'd clarify what I’ve been talking about re the Tektro CR720 brakes I referred to in my posts above. This page from the Rivendell site http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/brc1.htm has five photos of the Tektro brakes, which can be enlarged. Rivendell refers to this style of brake as "high profile" cantilever whereas I’ve been describing them as "wide profile".

Also see the photos I've posted here http://gregcycling.blogspot.com.au/2013 ... tions.html .

Greg
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby GregLR » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:53 pm

Daggo

A slight correction on the Pushys (Canberra) price for the Salsa 'Vaya 3' - I was in the shop today and noticed the price is $1800 (54cm size, I think), not the $1850 I said the other day. (Actually, strictly speaking it's $1799.99 - prices of other models listed below also oddly end with 99 cents or 95 cents, so I've rounded up to the whole dollar.)

These other prices for touring bikes that Pushy currently has on the floor might help you (& others) in weighing up the various options available in shops in other cities:
- Jamis 'Aurora Elite' - $1650;
- Surly 'LHT' - $1600 (54cm; 26" wheels);
- Salsa 'Fargo 3' - $1900;
- Vivente 'World Randonneur' - dropped bar models between $1900 & $2000 while butterfly bar models range between $1800 & $1900 (presumably depending on the size but perhaps there are variations in spec - I didn't have time to ask, as I nipped in while in the midst of a trip to other non-bike shops in the area with my other half).

Greg
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Daggo » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:05 pm

Thanks Greg. Well after all my reading the last week I should change the topic to "LTH or Salsa or Vivente"! But I think I've settled on the Vivente. Looks like a trip to Sydney (yuk) is in for me so I can have a touch and feel.
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby elStado » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:30 pm

+1 for the Vivente. Best bang for buck, and it's a small Aussie-owned company. See thread that RonK linked.. everything you need to know is there.
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby RonK » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:40 am

Daggo wrote:Looks like a trip to Sydney (yuk) is in for me so I can have a touch and feel.

In Sydney, Cheeky Transport at Newtown may be worth visiting.
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby baabaa » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:42 pm

this may help
Salsa Vaya 1000 Mile Review (or our thoughts on Salsa Vaya vs. Surly LHT)
http://pathlesspedaled.com/2012/12/sals ... surly-lht/
while I dont ride a Slasa I do have 3 Salsas so I do kinda like the brand but the key buying points for me is all three have True Temper OX Platinum tubing which suits my frame size needs, weight and riding style.
Much like the review above I no longer wish to head out on a bike fully loaded with front and read racks and panniers but opt for light weight with frame bags and sightly faster but more fun type touring.
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And a decision was made

Postby Daggo » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:39 pm

Thanks for your help guys.

Image

Didn't have to go to Sydney as Bike Trax in Toronto (56 Victory Parade, 02 49596271) had one on display for me to look at and then got me one in and put it all together for me.

Now a front rack, handlebar bag (and I have 3 but they are "floppy") needs to purchased . And work out how to mount my panniers. And these SDIs are going to take a while to get used to. All good fun :P

Daggo.
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby RonK » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:33 pm

Great choice. Enjoy!
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Wingnut » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:07 pm

I still don't understand the whole front disc & rear canti spec situation...I'd rather discs both ends...
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Re: LTH or Slasa??

Postby Cheesewheel » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:09 pm

Wingnut wrote:I still don't understand the whole front disc & rear canti spec situation...I'd rather discs both ends...

maybe because disc hubs are slightly weaker due to being more off centre (to enable more real estate to house the disc brake) and to save the front rims a bit of hard ship since it bears the brunt of braking
(or maybe because its $$$ easier $$$ to tweak a front fork to house a disc brake than it is to tweak an entire frame to meet the same end )
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