Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Touring

Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Touring

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:23 am

I found this post at Cycling About quite comprehensive and interesting. It has given me so thought for possible options should (or is that when) my Garmin Edge 810 dies.

Alee opens the post with this comment ...

A couple of months ago our Garmin Edge 800 stopped being reliable. It turned itself off whenever it felt like it – most of the time when we were really relying on it. We had run out of open source maps, and were told that it would cost in excess of $150 to have it looked at. We'd had enough.

As soon as we arrived in Korea we purchased a smartphone for navigational purposes. As it turns out this was the best gear swap-out we've made in a long while – smartphones make navigation a pleasure because they are SO user friendly.

Smartphones are easy and intuitive – you can quickly download detailed maps of any country, which are easy to move, zoom in and out of, and create points of interest.


Balance at Cycling About

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by BNA » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:37 am

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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:37 am

I found the coverage of off line mapping sites quite interesting.

For me the abysmal smartphone battery life will continue to push me towards a dedicated GPS unit like the Garmin, as generator front hubs are not practical for me without a change in bike brand. A change in phone screen technology to eliminate the need for battery-eating back lighting might change the game though.

Having my phone exposed up there makes me nervous - in the event of a major crash my sole means of calling for help might get taken out. A stupid incident yesterday reminded me all to vividly of that risk.

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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Calvin27 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:02 am

Just use a water proof smartphone.

I bought my Xperia Z for this purpose and it works a charm. No issues with dust or water whatsoever, just mounting it took some custom modification as mot of the aftermarket bits are bulky. Heck I even took it under a waterfall to take videos and it survived!

*Edit, I've crashed a few times (MTB) and it survived - I've made my mount so that under impact it falls off rather than hard attached.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby RonK » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:22 am

So Cycling About has concluded pretty much what I've been saying for quite some time, and it took yet another failed Garmin device to open up their minds.

After a bitter experience with an Edge I'll never own another Garmin device. I've used my iPhone in exactly the way Cycling About describe for my past three tours, using mostly Google Maps, MapsWithMe, and very occasionally, Sygic. And another useful tracking app, which they seem to have overlooked - Track My Tour.

The reality (unless you are an utter navigational moron) is that continuous turn-by-turn navigation is rarely needed in the touring context. And when it is, it's invariably in built-up areas, when you may need some help finding your way through a larger town or city. Cell connectivity is usually available, so Google Maps usually works just fine, and it doesn't take very long to clear most places so battery life is no problem. Once you're out on the highway it's really only needed for the odd location or navigation check. Like using a paper map just as Cycling About observes.

Whilst there are many choices of protective cases with handlebar mounts as Cycling About shows, I don't bother with mounts, just carry it in a handlebar bag. If I need guidance I put it in a pocket and use earbuds to listen to the voice prompts.

For my next tour I'll step up to the iPad Mini that Santa bought me for Xmas. It will run all these apps and since it's less than half the size and weight of my MacBook AIr it will also be my touring computer.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Tim » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:25 pm

Whilst I can't blame my Edge 800 entirely for my riding straight into the back of a parked Federal Police car (trailgumby might recall the telling of that episode :D ), it certainly contributed.
Twice it has failed me on tour. One of those failures was at one of the few times I was relying on it to navigate a pre-planned route through Victoria's busy Mornington Peninsula. The planned route was meant to be via quieter and more scenic locales.
Having lost all my ride data, when the rotten thing started working again I set it to automatically plan a course.
It did. Through some of the steepest, most busy and dangerous roads I had ever ridden to that point of time. Great.

Ron, I don't normally need the GPS for navigation, usually just for tracking and recording the tour for interest sake. Paper maps are more to my navigational liking.
Does the Track My Tour and other similar tracking apps use much battery power? I assume that tracking alone is less of a drag on battery life than tracking and navigation ie turn by tun instruction. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Touring

Postby RonK » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:21 pm

Tim wrote:Whilst I can't blame my Edge 800 entirely for my riding straight into the back of a parked Federal Police car (trailgumby might recall the telling of that episode :D ), it certainly contributed.
Twice it has failed me on tour. One of those failures was at one of the few times I was relying on it to navigate a pre-planned route through Victoria's busy Mornington Peninsula. The planned route was meant to be via quieter and more scenic locales.
Having lost all my ride data, when the rotten thing started working again I set it to automatically plan a course.
It did. Through some of the steepest, most busy and dangerous roads I had ever ridden to that point of time. Great.

Ron, I don't normally need the GPS for navigation, usually just for tracking and recording the tour for interest sake. Paper maps are more to my navigational liking.
Does the Track My Tour and other similar tracking apps use much battery power? I assume that tracking alone is less of a drag on battery life than tracking and navigation ie turn by tun instruction. Correct me if I am wrong.


Tim, it doesn't track your tour in that sense. It's really a mini-blogging app that allows you to create waypoints and post photos and comments for others to keep track of your tour. It was made by the creator of the Warm Showers app, another handy touring tool.

I'm not much interested in actually recording my track, but for tours where I've felt the route was isolated enough to need a personal location beacon (PLB) in case of emergency, I have a Delorme Inreach, which is also a tracking device.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Aushiker » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:25 pm

For those interested in GPS units Sigma have joined the fray with their Rox 10.0



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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Warin » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:28 am

The 'Smartphone' and battery use?

Once your 'out of range' of the phone towers the phone ramps its RF output up to max to try and get to the phone tower = higher battery drain. I'd have to check if some function can turn the RF down or off to reduce this battery drain. Areoplane mode?

If the GPS function is enabled on the 'smart phone' then that too can increase the battery drain.

-------------------
If an 'app' tracking function turns on the GPS .. then yes it will drain the battery faster. Other than that an 'app' would have little effect on battery drain (tracking or not).

---------------------------
Traditional maps can be photographed and viewed that way on the 'smart phone' (or your camera come to that)[these are called raster maps, they cannot be used to automatically 'auto route']. A collection of maps weigh a lot less in electronic form compared to their paper form.... I've a preference to have both the paper map/s and the electronic form (in all devices - incase one fails).

-------------
Apps ...
I do like the GPS function where I'm always in the center of the screen .. so I don't have to find out where I am on the map. And I also like the track on the map too .. so I can see where I've come from.

==========================
I'm yet to get a 'smart phone'. I've some 2Gb of raster maps for Australia .. quite a bit of that is sat photos so the actual amount I'd take away with me would be less. But the phone should be capable of storing large amounts of data .. and apps should be able to use it to put me in the center of the map, show where I've been and automatically step across to the next adjacent map. I've used Oziexplorer to do this in the past on a PDA. And I see they have an 'app' for the android phones. And there is a free app of similar capabilities using the same calibration data.

=====================
OSM
As OSM data is contributed by volunteers and there are more people in cities, OSM data is 'better' in cities than in the country side. Mapping roads out in the country side can be done from sat photos .. where the vegetation does not cover it too much. So in our desert it is fairly easy .. in the forests .. not so good. The best maps are from GPS track data. If you want to make OSM 'better' then consider making it so. I've done a bit (WA, NSW and ... Gallipoli for ANZAC day .. there was not much there before. I'm waiting on the Aust. War Memorial to hopefully release copyright on the English to Turkish names that I'd like to have up).
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby WarbyD » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:38 am

To address two of the easy items from your list there Warin:

(1) Putting the phone in airplane mode will disable the cell function (along with WiFi, GPS, etc) and stop it draining battery in areas of poor coverage. You can then turn back on those functions that you want individually (ie GPS)
(2) 2Gb of data is nothing on a phone - most of the "smart" phones now have a minimum of 8gb "built in" and almost all of the android phones can be expanded with MicroSD cards up to a further 32 or 64gb (I don't believe iPhones can be expanded beyond their stock capacity - but even that I think is a minimum of 8gb)
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Warin » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:14 am

Thanks for that WarbyD.

The areoplane mode sounds quite useful for saving the battery. :D

Memory .. well I just looked .. yes 2 Gb for the raster maps .. OSM Australia bicycle is 0.22b OSM Australia car is 0.2Gb Then T4A is 0.053Gb, shonky full is 0.2. For comparison North America eastern third is 1.8Gb, and Garmins western Europe is 1.8Gb. PDFs of manuals (camera, hubs, etc) more, notes, copies of web pages relating to the trip .. all take more and more room. Then add the apps on top of that .. And while the phone may have 8Gb internal .. some of that is used by the phone itself.. :( So .. I'd like a lot of memory - rather too much than too little. :!:

The other factor I'm considering is the number of bands the phone can use.. For GSM (or G2 if you want) Ideally for want 4 band. Then in addition to that you have G3 .. and again you want 4 band. Then you have G4 .. not so common and only really available in hi signal strength areas so not worried by G4. Why bother if you only going with one provider? Well you don't need to .. unless you go overseas and there you will want to use another provider .. who may well use a different band. Having 4 band in both GSM and G3 means you are flexible as to who you use, here or overseas and now or in the future.

[Edit - update and correct gps map size data]

----------------
Looking at the Samsung Galaxy S4 mini. Is there an S5 coming out? Price drop on the S4 :?:
Last edited by Warin on Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby WarbyD » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:22 am

Samsung seem to release a new Galaxy variant every few months lol.. So do most phone manufacturers though and the changes aren't usually significant from one variant to the next.

You will have no dramas with storage if you get a Galaxy or similar - Throw in a 32gb or 64gb MicroSD card and you'll have all the space you could possibly need for what you've said there.

I don't know about the various bands etc but for what it's worth I've done alot of travel for work (mostly) in Asia (vietnam, indonesia, borneo, timor, cambodia, thailand, malaysia, singapore) and a little bit in the US (Houston) over the past 4-5 years and have never had any issues with reception in any of those locations. In that time I've travelled with BlackBerry, Nokia, Samsung and Sony phones.
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Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Touring

Postby RonK » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:32 am

The smallest iPhone is 16gb. The largest is 64gb.

Or you can get an iPad Mini - 128gb is the largest but only the 4G versions have GPS.

For raster maps there are a number of apps available - Memory Map is probably the best of them.

Hema Maps also has an app but it is bloody expensive. I assume though that it's the price of the maps that determines this and will be similar whatever app you choose.

Your better choice (I think) will probably be to go the iPad Mini with a Telstra Prepay data SIM for the most reliable service, and just get a basic cell phone instead of a smart phone.

But as posted previously, these are not practical solutions for continuous turn-by-turn navigation and route tracking unless you have the capability to maintain the batteries.
Last edited by RonK on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Wingnut » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:23 am

With regard to the original post, travelling with just a smart phone can be so simple...I did it previously across SA & WA in early 2011...paper maps for backup and GPS on the iPhone when needed.

If I ever plan on touring with a larger device I'll upgrade but for the moment these are all I'm planning to use in the future...

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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Aushiker » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:49 am

For Android users, the OpenMaps app, OsmAnd might be of interest. Sounds like it is pretty well specified.

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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby irrelevant_apple » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:04 pm

osmand lacks cycling dedicated maps. Though it does have the open cycle maps paths on it. It's good for voice navigation of gpx though, also points of interest and streets database.

I use Locus app for basically everything. Creating routes with bike support, open cycle maps, voice nav, offline routing, elevation data and etc.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Warin » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:30 pm

Hi,
Getting back to this old post.
Well I have my 'smart phone' now ... used a total of 37.8Gb of memory so far.

I'm using Osmand .. has a bicycle 'function' that makes more prominent bicycle type stuff .. like bicycle paths, bicycle parking, bicycle shops. Also has a pedestrian function .. along with the usual car function.

I'm not impressed with the phones GPS sensitivity nor acquisition times compared to my old garmin GPSmap 60Cx ... the 60Cx gets its location a lot quicker from switch on and keeps its reception when the smart phone looses the satellites (tested in valley + tree cover).

I'm yet to figure out my total charging requirements .. in Wh (Watt hours), and then figure out what size of solar cell would be required, or cycling speed/distance to power a dyno ... I'll probably want to retain the 60Cx, with the smart phone as backup and as a little larger display, and with its raster map ability.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Wingnut » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:32 am

In the TomTom app there's a bicycle mode that can be used when creating trips...I haven't tried it but it's there...

I've received my Sinewave Revolution (works really well with dynamo hub) several days ago and a water resistant iPhone cover/handlebar mount, and plan to use that with MapMyRide for training...I'll have to give the TomTom app a go on it (which I already use).
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby WarrenH » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:27 pm

We can all be victims of the latest over exaggerated fads, that promise the world but deliver inconsistencies ... but I'm not.

A Next G (type) Rural phone with 5db high gain antenna with a dedicated patch lead, and then referring to a Oz mapping GPS unit ... and then the touring world, here in Oz, is your unfailing oyster.

There is another option that historically works very well too, better than phones that drop out ... it involves planning and then learning where you're going, really. Do that even before you go and even look at paper maps, they do still exist.

Warren.

PS, My phone dropped out ... for crying out loud! If you rely on your phone for your navigation, stay at home, sit on the couch in your underwear ... and buy a big book picture about touring Australia. It will be much safer for you.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Wingnut » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:38 pm

I agree using maps is fun...but it is kinda handy knowing that I can be self contained and not require the use of a power point at a camp ground to charge my phone for a call or check the distance to an alternative location...


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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Andy » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:15 pm

Last year I rode from Bangkok to Singapore and my Galaxy S2 was excellent for maps. It had some of the pros and cons mentioned above but the pros far outweighed the cons. I don't use the navigation feature. I could whip it out of the handlebar bag get a lock on location and move on. Most of the time it was only needed for intersections where it wasn't obvious which way to go. I could also determine how far I'd traveled or had to go.

I had a small laptop with me and each night (stayed in hotels) I would charge the phone and create routes in google maps on the pc which I could then access with the phone. Particularly useful when weaving through small country lanes such as the ones south of Nakhon Pathom and along the Thai south-east coast. If power access was a concern I'd use my hub dynamo or airplane mode.

For remote area mapping such as in Australia I'm not sure how accurate or detailed the offline maps might be. Without a data connection it can take 2-3 minutes to get a lock. I recall on a trip in Tasmania a couple of years ago one of the group had a Garmin etrex which showed a tiny little fire trail that wasn't evident on other maps. I was impressed and glad. It meant no backtracking.

My general opinion is that smart phones are excellent for touring.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby RonK » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:20 pm

Somewhat expensive but comprehensive mapping available with Hema Exporer. Worth a look. Even more detail with Hema 4wd Maps.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Andy » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:34 pm

RonK wrote:Whilst there are many choices of protective cases with handlebar mounts as Cycling About shows, I don't bother with mounts, just carry it in a handlebar bag. If I need guidance I put it in a pocket and use earbuds to listen to the voice prompts.


Good idea with the earbuds Ron.

Hema maps comes in android flavour too for us plebs http://www.hemamaps.com.au/Home/Hema-Explorer-app/android
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Wingnut » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:15 pm

I have a protective case and handlebar mount which I use because I'm a masseur & I get txt jobs which I need to reply to in an instant so if I'm riding I can see this rather than stopping to check my phone...


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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Warin » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:45 pm

Wingnut wrote:I get txt jobs which I need to reply to in an instant so if I'm riding I can see this rather than stopping to check my phone...


:roll:

No phone call is worth your life or limb. Nor is your phone call worth my life. :(


Just as people existed without GPS they too existed without phones !!!!!!! Yes my Grandpar first drove a horse and buggy .. and when he drove a car he talked to it .... whoohar to stop! :lol:

Please stop for your phone or txt if you need to. If the phone call is a life or death matter than it's a 000 call and they are maned by people who are not driving, nor cooking etc. Educate your callers that a call may not be immediately answered. You wouldn't answer it with a hand full of toilet paper now would you?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hemma do a great job ... they actually travel the roads with GPSes and use those to create their maps. I've the 'Great Desert Tracks' series on CD. The set I have are raster not vector data. Not certain if Hemma offer it in vector form. Not certain I want it in vector form either.
---------------
I like to travel with more than one map .. that gets a bit heavy. Putting the map/s on a memory card makes taking many maps just so easy and light. If the phone fails .. then the raster maps can be viewed using the camera .. just put the card in there with the correct directories. Even so, I still have one paper map that I travel with. But the other maps give a different perspective.
----------------------------------------------------
For detail on OSM maps ... I look at where I want to go .. and add detail from the satellite maps (copyright permitted, not google sat but from others like Bing) to those parts of interest to me. Ok I cannot get all of the stuff you can get from the ground ...but I get enough to be able to interperate it when I'm there. This way I get detail to help find things. I've been surprise as to what is there already in some parts. But there is always more. I also take care of mapping my 'backyard', last month the NP&WS put some steps in on a track/path... yep they were in the OSM data base within 2 days.
The commercial Garmin maps are not bad for detail, but they cost. And they tend not to map remote bicycle stuff. And I can get the latest OSM map ... as in today.
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Re: Cycling About Take a Look at Using a Mobile Phone Tourin

Postby Wingnut » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:51 pm

I probably didn't explain myself correctly...rather than stopping for every txt I receive previously when my phone was in my back pocket I can now see who is contacting me and only stop for my job requests and then ignore the rest. :)

I've never answered a phone while riding and never will...


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