Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

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trailgumby
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby trailgumby » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:04 pm

RonK wrote:
trailgumby wrote:If you are looking where you are riding, and relying on a homing device for it to follow you, you are not doing that.

That may be your interpretation, but it is not mine.
Then I think we'll just have to have a difference of opinion.

Unfortunately the link to the actual legislation from the page you linked isn't returning a result at the moment, but the rest of the page states:
CASA wrote:You should only fly in visual line-of-sight, in day visual meteorological conditions (VMC). What does that mean?
No night flying (generally).
No flying in or through cloud or fog, and you should.
Be able to see the aircraft with your own eyes (rather than through first-person-view [FPV, binoculars, telescopes]) at all times, (unless you operate under the procedures of an approved model flying association. Contact the MAAA for more information about flying FPV).

The only exception is flying in FPV under the rules of the Model Aeronautical Association of Australia, of which I used to be a member at one time. Relying on a homing device is not First Person View and while you are riding and it is following you, you are not seeing the aircraft with your own eyes. I don't see much room for alternative interpretations there.

Good luck. I hope I'm wrong.

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Warin
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby Warin » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:21 pm

RonK wrote: I'll be long gone by the time any inspectors reach the scene.


:mrgreen: I can hear them now "Drones must be registered" :P

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby RonK » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:28 pm

trailgumby wrote:Be able to see the aircraft with your own eyes (rather than through first-person-view [FPV, binoculars, telescopes]) at all times

Please indicate which part of the passage you highlighted says the pilot must watch the aircraft constantly and never take his eyes off it. This regulation is about how far away from you can fly, hence the reference to FPV, binoculars, and telescopes.

And since you don't appear to have any experience with drones, how can you say it can't be kept continuously in sight while cycling?

Using active tracking and terrain follow mode I can fly the Mavic anywhere - behind, above, off to either side, in front, anywhere within a hemispherical radius. I could in fact fly it a few metres in front of my face, to keep it easily in sight.

Finally, you presume to make assumptions about where I would fly it - but you have no idea.
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby RonK » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:46 pm

Warin wrote:
RonK wrote: I'll be long gone by the time any inspectors reach the scene.


:mrgreen: I can hear them now "Drones must be registered" :P

Better get used to them. Amazon and Dominos will be making home deliveries before long.
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby trailgumby » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:01 pm

Given how easily remotely controlled model aircraft are lost while flying, the extreme difficulty in finding them again when a pilot loses that visual connection to his model and the panic that ensues among everybody near the flight line to try and locate it in the sky, I struggle to see that it would be interpreted by CASA in any other way, or what else the point would be for keeping it within naked eye visual range.

As to assuming where you'll fly it, you're assuming that I'm assuming :lol: I have no idea, nor care, as it is irrelevant to the points under discussion.

You're interpreting it in a way that is favourable to what you want to do. I am attempting to look at it from CASA's POV. I don't have a dog in this fight - I don't care whether you fly in real time or using the automated functions. Apart from the intrusive noise of some of the high performance units I don't care about them if they keep a safe distance. In fact I have toyed with the idea of getting one but I am generally over the video editing hassle and would rather just go ride and enjoy the scenery.

But if you wanna argue your position in court, go ahead.

What I would recommend is you give CASA a call and talk to someone *authoritative* and get their view on what the legislation means, if it supports your position take notes during the call and mark the name, time and date and put it away somewhere safe. At least then if they bust your chops later you'll stand a good chance of being able to prove you took reasonable steps to determine whether your intended mode of operation is compliant, and hopefully avoid the fine and having the conviction recorded. Your own legal fees you'll probably still have to wear.

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby RonK » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:39 pm

Quite clearly you posted in this thread purely to express your resentment.

trailgumby wrote:I have to say that I go mountain biking to get away from the built environment. A drone and the attendant noise would be a major intrusion.


trailgumby wrote:.You're interpreting it in a way that is favourable to what you want to do. I am attempting to look at it from CASA's POV. I don't have a dog in this fight - I don't care whether you fly in real time or using the automated functions.


Just as obviously, you do have a dog in this fight, and you are interpreting it in a way that is favourable to what you argue.

You can try all you like to make a pseudo-legal argument. I simply don't care what you think.
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby trailgumby » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:21 am

RonK wrote: I simply don't care what you think.

Evidently you do or you would not be so passive-aggressive in responding.

You are right in one way though: ultimately what I think does not matter. It is what CASA thinks that matters.

Hence my suggestion you contact them to find out their view.

If you do that I'd be interested to hear back from you what they said. If I were a betting man, though, I would put money on you never doing that because you've stated earlier it is easier make yourself scarce, than go to that effort and possibly hear something you won't like.

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby brumby33 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:19 am

Darren Alff from Bicycle Touring Pro website took a drone for Photography purposes on his tour in Andorra

Spectacular scenic shots of him riding the countryside brings it to another level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VADTK2MyBKg

Cheers

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby Aushiker » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:25 am

Andrew
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby RonK » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:28 am

Hehe - yes, that clip was posted and critiqued earlier. Stunning scenery but poorly edited.
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby RonK » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:39 am

Jeez Andrew, that guy does go on - and on and on.
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby Aushiker » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:40 am

On the question of "visual line of sight", Part 101 Amendments of the regulations which came into effect on September 29, 2016 states in part (regulation 101.073 refers]:

101.073 Operation must generally be within visual line of sight

Unmanned aircraft must be operated within visual line of sight

(1) A person commits an offence of strict liability if:

(a) the person operates an unmanned aircraft; and

(b) the aircraft is not operated within the person’s visual line of sight.

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

Exception—CASA approval

(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply if:

(a) the person holds an approval under regulation 101.029 to operate the unmanned aircraft beyond the person’s visual line of sight; and

(b) the conditions (if any) imposed on the approval are complied with.

Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subregulation (2): see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code.

Meaning of operated within visual line of sight

(3) An unmanned aircraft is being operated within the visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft if the person can continually see, orient and navigate the aircraft to meet the person’s separation and collision avoidance responsibilities, with or without corrective lenses, but without the use of binoculars, a telescope or other similar device.


I would be inclined to use a follow-me drone off to my side or in front when riding to satisfy these regulations if I had any concerns.
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby RonK » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:37 pm

Aushiker wrote:Meaning of operated within visual line of sight

(3) An unmanned aircraft is being operated within the visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft if the person can continually see, orient and navigate the aircraft to meet the person’s separation and collision avoidance responsibilities, with or without corrective lenses, but without the use of binoculars, a telescope or other similar device.

Yes, the CASA web page is written in plain English and no self-serving legalistic "interpretation" is required.

The Mavic has built-in collision avoidance and terrain-following technology, so the requirement to meet separation and collision avoidance responsibilities, and to maintain it in visual line of sight is easily satisfied, even in tracking mode.

In fact the New Zealand regulations where I expect to use the Mavic most are far more onerous, but when used to capture short bike touring scenes where I will never be in one place for more than a few minutes the possibility than anyone will even become aware of my (or the Mavic) presence is remote, and does not concern me at all.
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby trailgumby » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:14 pm

RonK wrote:
Aushiker wrote:Meaning of operated within visual line of sight

(3) An unmanned aircraft is being operated within the visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft if the person can continually see, orient and navigate the aircraft to meet the person’s separation and collision avoidance responsibilities, with or without corrective lenses, but without the use of binoculars, a telescope or other similar device.

Yes, the CASA web page is written in plain English and no self-serving legalistic "interpretation" is required.

We must have a different understanding of the meaning of "plain english" then. Seems pretty plain to me that it supports my understanding and not yours.

If it is following you from behind, you are looking ahead at the terrain, and your hands are on the bars, then you are not continually seeing the UAV and you are not continually orienting it, nor are you continually navigating it. At best you have done so once, and then you have subcontracted out and surrendered the rest of your responsibilities to an automated system, and not a person. In contrast, if someone else in your party is piloting the drone for you, that would be quite OK.

Is that a legalistic interpretation? Undoubtedly yes you are right it is. But then it is a law or regulation, so I struggle to see what other methodology for analysing what the rule means in practice could possibly be appropriate. If you get pinged and have to argue it, that's exactly what the lawyers and judge will do, too.

If you don't want to check what CASA thinks, that's your call. I would not be taking that risk if it was me.

Anyway, it's apparent that you don't want to change your mind, so on the basis that I've done my best to explain the matter I'm going to leave it there.

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby Wingnut » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:44 pm

Don't worry trailgumby RonK is just annoyed he can't buy a snag from Bunnings with his drone... ;)

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:17 pm

Andrew
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby Warin » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:59 pm

They now have drones that both fly in the air ... and swim under water ... perfect for when the weather turns wet?

Will the authorities require both an pilots air licence and a water captains licence? :o


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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby RonK » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:52 pm

Warin wrote:Will the authorities require both an pilots air licence and a water captains licence? :o

And a fishing licence?

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby Aushiker » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:06 am

Andrew
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby BandedRail » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:23 pm

I have my RePL (Remote Pilot License) and the regulation about visual line of sight states clearly that the PERSON operating the RPA (remotely piloted aircraft = UAV) must be able to continually see, orient and navigate the RPA, not just the RPA autopilot itself. If you are flying using intelligent flight modes (such as follow me) you must still be holding the controller and watching the RPA at all times. GPS signal can be lost, aircraft (water-bombers, gliders etc) can enter the same airspace with no notice, eagles don't like drones etc. I recommend that you do drone footage with two people - one riding the bike, one operating the RPA.

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby Comedian » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:50 am

I'm fascinated by these things. Must have for filming your adventure. :mrgreen:

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby StevOz » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:41 pm

Legalities aside have you ever heard one these flying close by? I have and I can tell you they sound like a very angry swarm of bees although about ten times louder! Just something else you may want to consider....

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby brumby33 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:55 pm

This video by Bicycle Touring Pro Darren Alf showing what he packed on his bike on his recent 3 Month South American Tour shows his Drone, how he packs it and all the other electronics he carries with him.
Due to his Cycle Touring website, he tends to carry a lot of electronic gear for his regular tutorials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxoro68 ... e=youtu.be

He goes through each pannier to teach those what he takes on such a tour, you'll have to wait or ff to his rear pannier set-up to get a look at his drone.

Anyway, just thought I'd post this in case it is interesting to any of you.

Cheers

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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby RonK » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:38 pm

The Phantom 4 is by all accounts a great drone but I couldn't think one more impractical for touring when you can have a Mavic Pro.

No wonder he needs those monster Arkel panniers... :wink:
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Re: Why a follow me drone would be great to have...

Postby brumby33 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:08 pm

RonK wrote:The Phantom 4 is by all accounts a great drone but I couldn't think one more impractical for touring when you can have a Mavic Pro.

No wonder he needs those monster Arkel panniers... :wink:



Ron, they are actually the new style Ortlieb Bike Packer Plus panniers...not Arkels.

They are a different material than the classics but are just as waterproof.

Cheers

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