Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

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RonK
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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby RonK » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:20 am

Yes, start off with maximum spacer stack, this will allow you to experiment with the stem height. You can trim later if need be.

But personally for a touring bike I leave it as high as possible - for long-distance comfort I want the bars at least as high as the saddle.
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baabaa
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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby baabaa » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:03 am

Yup with Ron on this. No need to rush to cut your steerer tube. FWIW, I have a uncut salsa vaya fork with 85 mm of spacers under and 10 mm over the stem. I like the height when touring an even have a 15 degree rise stem.
With a Hope head doctor and steel tube you are really flexible in finding the best height, so just find more spacers add them below and then keep moving the stem down and the spacers up until you find the right length for your type of riding. Once you cut through that steerer, that’s it. These forks are pretty solid so I wouldn’t stress about the length at the moment. The end result is you may have a bit of cable housing slack (maybe, full length housing anyway?)

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:36 pm

Thanks Ron and Baabaa,

I guess I have to do at least one cut straight up though. The reason being (as can be seen in my picture) is that even with 120mm of spacers I still cannot pre load the bearings. So I suppose it may require two cuts - I will start with the 85mm of so as recommended by Baabaa and trim from there.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby baabaa » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:12 pm

For info and not sure it really helps, but my head tube is 190 mm. Ok I see you pic now and yes the fork steerers on salsa framesets are very long but again just don't rush for the sake of a few bucks worth of spacers.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:49 pm

I tried Ron's system today but it failed dismally:( I bought some threaded rod, nuts and washers but I found it nearly impossible to align the cups. I used a lot of force but they would always go in crooked. I may try Bunnings for some stronger steel discs as the washers would tend to bow. I wonder what you use Ron and I also wonder if something like this is worth it. It seems very expensive.

http://www.wiggle.com.au/park-tools-home-mechanic-bearing-cup-press

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby Uncle Just » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:49 pm

I use that Park tool for headsets and it makes it easy to press the cups in. But at $100 it's about $40 iirc more than I paid some years back. If you are using a lot of force and it's not going in correctly have you got the right sized headset or does the inside of the HT have paint making the internal dimension slightly thicker? Did you use grease on the cups and ensure the washers were flush to the HT opening then tighten the nuts up alternately against the washers end by end? Anyway sounds like the washers are too thin if they're bending and Ron recommended heavy plate washers.
In times past I've also used a wooden dolly and a softish piece of wood over the cups to put them in but sometimes they go askew.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby RonK » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:39 pm

The Park tool is indeed the one that I use - but ultimately it is no different to the rod and plate washers and you still have to keep everything centered and aligned to pull the cups in straight.

Seems likely the washers you have are not heavy enough. When I say plate washers I'm thinking big ones like this.

Image

Also - are you try to pull both top and bottom in at the same time. If so, try just pulling in one at a time.
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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:16 am

Thanks everyone,

I will try and get some real plate washers. I did not realise how much force was required to set the headset cups. I double checked the sizes of the cups and headtube with some calipers and measured that the headtube is about 0.1mm thinner.

I note the Hope website says the chamfer the inside.

What also surprised me is inside diameter of the headtube is a constant diameter from top to bottom. The outside has the top and bottom widening out and I thought it must widen out to allow the fitting of the cups. I guess the thicker steel is for both aesthetics and maybe strength. Looking at the Hope pictures it shows all headtubes as being wider where the cups are inserted.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby baabaa » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:00 am

Hey, FWIW I kinda I know my way around bikes pretty well but for all three of my salsas I have had the headset cups set by a bike shop. They can check out if the frame needs that little bit of pre press prep on the head tub or bottom bracket threads. (None of mind did). Get the cups in right the first time and you buy a little bit of peace of mind.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby RonK » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:45 am

uad782 wrote:I did not realise how much force was required to set the headset cups.

Hehe - that is why I was saying you can't pull them in by the preload.
The Cane Creek headset pulled into the Fargo head tube fairly easily but some I've fitted took a fair bit to get them started.
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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:55 pm

Hi everyone,

I got it :) :) I am very very happy.

I went to Bunnings and got some bigger threaded rod and 50mmx2mm square washers. Once again on the first go had no luck.

So I got a file (for my chainsaw) and filed inside on both ends of the headtube. This helped to seat the cups and they went in relatively easily. I had two washers on either end and they were still bowing (elastic deformation-shows how much force was applied) when inserting. The other trick was when the cups look like they were going to misalign I moved the rod and washer to add force over the area that needed it.

That was my last go before I was going to follow in Baabaa's footsteps and head to the LBS.

So thanks to everyone for your help, it is much appreciated!

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby RonK » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:38 pm

Good result. The rest will be easy.
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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:37 pm

I too thought the rest would be easy. I cut the steerer to allow 80mm of spacers between stem and top of headtube. This gives me plenty of room to play around with height.

However, I successfully inserted the head doctor but I overtightened it breaking the bolt. The bolt appears to be a very weak alloy. My plan was to over-tighten so the fork would not rotate and back off from there.

This used to work with ball bearing headsets but I realise over-compression onto the cartridge type probably doesn't work.

It looks like I am up for a new head doctor as I doubt I can get the bolt easily.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby baabaa » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:39 pm

Not good news. Ping off a "I am really dumb and did this..." type email to the Hope head office, pretty sure they would like to know this sort of thing as they don't like the stuff they make breaking. They may come to the party and send off a new bolt for your trouble.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:35 pm

Thanks Baabaa,

After the snap I read on a few forums how weak the bolt is. I was pretty chuffed I got the expander section to work because that also gets a bagging.

I think I will cut my losses and get a cheaper, standard star nut and cap. I may still email Hope and see what they say.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:02 pm

Hi Ron and everyone,

I have mounted the caliper on the back with it seeming to fit well. However, when I mount the wheel, the inside brake pad rubs on the disc. I have tried adjusting the caliper positioning with no luck. A while ago you mentioned some Syntace shims. I assume I could use these to move the disc out from the centre.

By using the shims am I masking an underlying problem as I thought it should all fit nicely.

Thanks

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby RonK » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:42 pm

I used the shims to ensure the caliper and spokes didn't contact.

I don't recall what caliper you have. With the Spyres it was just a matter of fitting the caliper loosely and connecting the cable, squeezing the brakes to centre the caliper and tightening the caliper bolts while holding the brake on.

Remind us what caliper you have.
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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby baabaa » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:59 pm

Sorry which breed of brakes?
BB7s I just do the loosen caliper bolts, take tension off cables via in-line adjusters (and if not enough room at first at the quick release on the brake levers and then again down at the caliper), open pads so plenty of play with the rotor, drop in wheel and close in the inboard pads to grab rotor first, then snug down with outboard, tighten caliper, back off pads several clicks and re-adjust cable tension.
If you have BB7 mtn, get some in-line adjusters, they really help with drop bar levers. Once again the salsa steel frames seem pretty well set, so shims should be way down the list.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:31 pm

They are TRP Spyke brakes. I haven't attached a cable yet just mounted the caliper. I need to move the pads towards the wheel or the rotor away from the wheel as the inner pad rubs on the disc. There is not enough movement in the mounting to shift the caliper over.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby RonK » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:41 pm

Ok, they're Spykes - I assume the caliper adjustment is the same as the Spyres.

Have you adjusted the pad clearance? There is an allen key socket on both sides - 3mm I think. You should be able to adjust a pad in and the other pad out.
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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:46 am

Hi Ron,

I haven't tried that adjustment yet. I hope there is a bit of movement available. I think there won't be enough. I might also try mounting an old shimano caliper to see how it looks in comparison.

I also note TRP don't have much supporting documentation for the Spyke compared to the Spyre. I suppose they are similar.

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby RonK » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:14 am

I don't recall exactly what the difference is, but I do wonder why you chose MTB calipers for a road frame, and if the alignment is different
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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:45 am

Reason for Spyke is I have flat bars not drop bars. Also fully equipped bike comes with BB7's which are mtn callipers. I had a quick look at the brake against a Magura Louise with sizing looking similar.

I will investigate any difference between the spyre and spyke

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby RonK » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:14 am

Yes, it's probably only the cable pull ratio.

When I fitted Spyres to my Salsa Fargo they literally fell on, and I recall Andrew (Aushiker) commented that fitting Spykes to his Salsa Mukluk was easy.

Here's a how-to-do the pad adjustment

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Re: Surly vs Soma vs Salsa

Postby uad782 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:03 pm

Hi Ron et. al.,

First I note the Spyre and Spyke are pretty much the same brake. The difference is the Spyke has a cover on it for mud etc.

I spent a fair bit of time tonight mixing and matching with no luck. I tried an old set of Shimano and Magura louise calipers with them both rubbing on the inside pad. I tried swapping both sets of Spykes and adaptors with no luck. I also put another wheel in the frame with the same result.

Therefore I conclude it is either the TRP adaptor or the Salsa frame. I figure I could easily solve the problem by installing a half mm washer between the frame and the adaptor. However I am still concerned I have the problem.

Any comments once again appreciated.

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