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Going tubeless

Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:46 pm
by uad782
Hi Everyone,
I realise I am considerably behind the times but am thinking about going tubeless.

I have heard the term ghetto tubeless which I think refers to using non tubeless rims etc to go tubeless. Is this correct?

If I go something like Stan’s rims is that still Ghetto tubeless? Is it much more reliable? Or is UST still the only true tubeless system?

I have a set of WTB i23 rims for my Fargo and 2 tubeless tyres so I gather all I have to do is add sealant?

What happens if you get a flat in the middle of nowhere, do you just stick in a tube? I have seen those spikes Ronk has

Is it that much better as I have been using Schwable Mondial tyres and have had zero flats with them over the last 2 years. At 40 PSI they can transmit a fair bit of roughness though when on tracks such as the Old Ghost Road.

Any comments appreciated.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:31 pm
by Cardy George
I've gone Ghetto on my Big W 29er wheels and the difference was huge but ONLY because the new tyres are literally half the weight of the originals. If I had real wheels and tyres to start with the difference wouldn't be so large.

The sealant I'm using is a version of Wade's Secret Sauce (Google is your friend) and probably weighs about the same as the tubes it replaces. The benefit lies in not having the tube rubbing on the tyre causing friction losses.

I'm not familiar with the WTB rims, but a brief google search suggest to me to just add sealant and you're good.

As for what happens in the middle of no-where? You can definitely stick a tube in it. It's a bit messy but it beats walking!

Finally, from my experience, yes it is that much better. I ride over three corner jacks/goats heads daily and have never had to walk home, plus you can run much much lower pressures while maintaining the same rolling resistance, making the trails that little bit smoother.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:29 am
by Aushiker
I have done both, ghetto with a pair of Surly Marge Lite rims and now "proper" tubeless with a pair of Ollie 80s and the Giant PR2 rims on my Giant Defy. Oh the tyres on the Ollie 80s are not tubeless ready but they still seated nicely and ride fine.

I cannot see myself going back to tubes, more so with proper tubeless rims and tyres.

On the fatbike and because I bikepack I carry a small bottle of sealant as well as tube and oh a plug.

So far all good and it is nice to be able to run lower pressures particularly noticeable on the roadie.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:58 pm
by uad782
Thanks. I think I am sold on tubeless!

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:16 pm
by RonK
uad782 wrote:I have a set of WTB i23 rims for my Fargo and 2 tubeless tyres so I gather all I have to do is add sealant?

Your Fargo would have been delivered with tubeless-ready rims but the original tyres would have been fitted with tubes.

I have seen on another forum that the rims only have ordinary rim tape installed. So you should check the rim tape and replace it with tubeless rim tape if necessary. Then you only need to add sealant.

Check this WTB page to determine what width rim tape is required for your rims.

I carry a small bottle of sealant, a tube, a plug kit, a tyre boot, a roll of unwaxed dental floss and a heavy darning needle in my touring toolkit. Close to home I only carry the plug kit.

Keep in mind that sealant dries over time so periodic top-ups are necessary. I'm using Stans sealant, but popular opinion is that Orange Seal lasts longer before drying up.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:51 pm
by uad782
Thanks again Ron

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:31 pm
by rifraf
I went for a ride yesterday to deliver some mail to my landlord who lives in the same suburb.

It was nice to see two new sites on my front tire where white latex had made an appearance albeit without an accompanying loss of tire pressure.

My ghetto experiment appears to still be working although with all this heat we've been getting I'll not be surprised if the latex need changing soon.

:D

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:45 pm
by RonK
rifraf wrote:I went for a ride yesterday to deliver some mail to my landlord who lives in the same suburb.

It was nice to see two new sites on my front tire where white latex had made an appearance albeit without an accompanying loss of tire pressure.

My ghetto experiment appears to still be working although with all this heat we've been getting I'll not be surprised if the latex need changing soon.

:D

Been wondering if you had done this yet or not. So, two punctures avoided already. :D

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:00 pm
by Cardy George
rifraf wrote:I went for a ride yesterday to deliver some mail to my landlord who lives in the same suburb.

It was nice to see two new sites on my front tire where white latex had made an appearance albeit without an accompanying loss of tire pressure.

My ghetto experiment appears to still be working although with all this heat we've been getting I'll not be surprised if the latex need changing soon.

:D


What sealant are you using?

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:53 pm
by rifraf
Cardy George wrote:
What sealant are you using?


Stans, due to lots of comments online suggesting it "just works".

Its my first attempt with tubeless so I don't know enough to have formed an opinion.

I'd be asking those who'd tried a few. :)

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:57 pm
by rifraf
RonK wrote:Been wondering if you had done this yet or not. So, two punctures avoided already. :D


Yeah a hugely increased population has seen much more traffic and with that, a lot more litter and broken glass, to accompany an inexplicable increase in thorns in the areas I ride.

Saying that, I'm using some knobbled off road tires and not my more puncture resistant Schwalbe Mondails.

What remains to be seen is the manifestation of the latex going "off".

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:03 pm
by Telemike
Tubeless works (almost always, depending on the specific tyre and rim interface). It reduces flats when mountainbiking from several a year to one every couple of years. It is normall lighter and reduces rolling friction.m Sure it dries out, but i don't top mine up until i get a flat every couple of years and it doesnt seal. Then i sling a tube in until i get home. Yes, it is a bit messy, but a lot less messy than mucking around with an oily chain and deraileur. I think you would go a long way to find any serious mountainbiker running tubes now. I see no reason why tourers shouldnt do the same unless you are running a very puncture resistant tyre.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:06 pm
by RonK
Telemike wrote:I see no reason why tourers shouldnt do the same unless you are running a very puncture resistant tyre.

A very puncture resistant tyre is a very heavy tyre. Tubeless make much more sense.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:32 pm
by uad782
Thanks to Ronk I am seriously considering Stan’s newer S1 flow rims. They have a 29 mm width but I will probably only use 2.1 inch tyres.

Also wondering whether I should do a custom build or just get a wheel set. Are the Stan’s hubs any good?


Any comments appreciated.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:08 pm
by queequeg
Looks like I have a decision to make. I have a new set of wheels waiting for my new Adventure bike. They are tubeless ready rims and came with the tubeless valves, and I have some Panaracer Gravelking SK tyres to put on them, and those are apparently tubeless compatible as well. So, all I am missing is the sealant.It would certainly make more sense on a very long ride to not need to carry multiple spare tubes, so something I will need to explore when I do the bike build.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:24 am
by Warin
I'd still carry tubes - one for each tyre. Reason: if you get a cut in the tyre you may not be able to seal it air tight .. but you should be able to put a tube in it and have enough strength in some patching to be able to pressurise the tube. And then there is the possibility of a dent in the rim ...

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:39 pm
by rifraf
Well I've not been riding for some time and knowing that the latex has been in my tires for many months, I want to give my tires a refresh.

I'm using a ghetto setup and so far very happy with it.

What methodology is everyone using to remove old latex from their tires :?:

I ask as I seem to remember RonK suggesting it required a bit of forethought due to it being potentially a messy job. :idea:

Is the latex (Stans) water soluble :?: I've got a garden hose but as yet unsure if it reaches close to any drainage.

Any toxicity issues for waterways/drains etc :?:

I'm renting and do not want to have a conversation with my landlord about any mess so thought I'd ask for a heads up to pre-empt any wholesale spills.

I'm unsure just how solid to expect any "off" goop in my hoops.

The last ride, having pumped up both tires, saw the front go down to about half pressure by morning suggesting , given the front had the most Stans in it, that it was due for a refresh.

Whilst past rides had seen some pressure loss over time, it was nothing substantial like the fronts overnighter.

I'm hoping I can don some surgical gloves, pop the bead on one side and scoop out the old stuff but thought I'd check in here for a some help.

Thanks in advance :D

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:49 pm
by rifraf
Warin wrote:I'd still carry tubes - one for each tyre. Reason: if you get a cut in the tyre you may not be able to seal it air tight .. but you should be able to put a tube in it and have enough strength in some patching to be able to pressurise the tube. And then there is the possibility of a dent in the rim ...


Thats the method I've been following, hauling a couple of spare tubes.

Pushing a laden touring bike with a flat any distance wouldn't be good for tires or rim.



That aside, I found setting up my ghetto tubeless, the deitys must have been smiling as unlike many, getting my tires to pressure up and seal wasn't difficult with just my mini-pump.

I had expected failure in my attempt and was resigned to having to find someone with a compressor.

A postive outcome was being motivated to making a visit to my local car tire store and procuring a tubeless car valve so whilst on the road I can hopefully have a service-stations compressor pump to fall back on given I use Presta valves.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:07 pm
by brokenbus
I just add some more sealant as it dries up. May be a slight weight penalty though but I doubt you would notice it. I did once change a wheel tyre combo I got second hand back to tubes and I just pealed the dry sealant off the inside of the tyre and wiped it off the rims. Was a PITA and took a while but I did find 3 thorns poking through so it need to be done prior to installing tubes. If you are not going back to tubes, I wouldn't bother.
Nick

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:28 pm
by CKinnard
So let me get this straight.
Some people want to do tubeless to save weight on heavier more puncture resistant tires.
So ok, you get your lighter tire, and stick some glue in it....total weight less than more puncture resistant tire.
So now, how about doing the calculus comparing the lighter tubeless tire, and its higher turnover frequency time and cost investment...with the lower punctures and turnover frequency of the puncture resistant tire.

In other words, you can have lighter tires that you turnover more frequently.....or you can have heavier tires you turnover less frequently.

next.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:43 pm
by Cardy George
brokenbus wrote:I just add some more sealant as it dries up........
........If you are not going back to tubes, I wouldn't bother.
Nick

What Nick said. Pop the bead and scoop out any Stanimals (technical term :wink: ) and leave the rest as its keeping the holes plugged

CKinnard wrote:So let me get this straight.
Some people want to do tubeless to save weight on heavier more puncture resistant tires.
So ok, you get your lighter tire, and stick some glue in it....total weight less than more puncture resistant tire.
So now, how about doing the calculus comparing the lighter tubeless tire, and its higher turnover frequency time and cost investment...with the lower punctures and turnover frequency of the puncture resistant tire.

In other words, you can have lighter tires that you turnover more frequently.....or you can have heavier tires you turnover less frequently.

next.


Wow, you're completely missing the point of tubeless.

No tube = no friction on the inside of the tire = more supple tire carcass = lower rolling resistance = less air pressure = more grip.

No second layer means anything that gets through the tyre gets a layer of sealant instantly. I've used sealant with tubes as well and if the thorn stays in the tyre it holds the hole in the tube open and the air gets out.

If you live in a thorn prone area, like me, tubeless is a 100% better option.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:56 pm
by rifraf
CKinnard wrote:So let me get this straight.
Some people want to do tubeless to save weight on heavier more puncture resistant tires.
So ok, you get your lighter tire, and stick some glue in it....total weight less than more puncture resistant tire.
So now, how about doing the calculus comparing the lighter tubeless tire, and its higher turnover frequency time and cost investment...with the lower punctures and turnover frequency of the puncture resistant tire.

In other words, you can have lighter tires that you turnover more frequently.....or you can have heavier tires you turnover less frequently.

next.


Theres no getting it straight.

Different riders use different tires and methods for different reasons.

I'm simply lazy and dislike the downtime fixing punctures when I could be eating miles with the limited motivation I've got.

I'm using a set of "lightish" Exiwolf knobbly tires which are are not "tubeless" but seal up fine with my ghetto setup.
The setup, even with the addition of a couple of 60g doses of stans are lighter than my normal fitment of tubes and Marathon Mondials.

Given the abundance of thorns where I was riding last and significant punctures because of them, I went in this direction to eliminate a decent percentage of wheel off/tire off puncture repairs.

I also think when it comes to the weights of many touring bikes, a couple of hundred grams of tire difference won't be the end of the world.

Course, your mileage may vary :D

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:16 pm
by CKinnard
The thing is, if you are doing zillions of miles, your average speed decreases due to cardiovascular realities, so tire weight and rolling resistance isn't as big an issue.

I had one set of tubeless. They were infinitely harder to on/off. and the sealant dried up and was ineffective within 3-4 mths. Others I know had similar issues with sealant drying out.

I also understand sealant in a mtb tire at sub 50psi is not the same as sealant in a roadie tire at 70+psi.

Plez explane .

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:30 pm
by Cardy George
CKinnard wrote:The thing is, if you are doing zillions of miles, your average speed decreases due to cardiovascular realities, so tire weight and rolling resistance isn't as big an issue.

I had one set of tubeless. They were infinitely harder to on/off. and the sealant dried up and was ineffective within 3-4 mths. Others I know had similar issues with sealant drying out.

I also understand sealant in a mtb tire at sub 50psi is not the same as sealant in a roadie tire at 70+psi.

Plez explane .

Yep yep, but you'll need to explain the cardiovascular realities......

The tire beads need to be tighter to form the air tight seal. The sealant only closes the smaller holes. Ever seen a car tyre being mounted/dismounted? Same deal.

As for the sealant drying out? That is unfortunately part of the deal, but by the same token you don't expect chain lube to only need 1 lifetime application, it just becomes a consumable like lube.

The roadie/mtb pressure difference comes from the higher air pressure in road tyres blasting the sealant out of the hole.

Re: Going tubeless

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:41 pm
by CKinnard
Sealant isn't as effective at preventing higher roadie tire pressure from escaping.

Cardiovascular realities mean if you want to ride 150+km/day with gear, for several consecutive days, then you do so at a lower % of VO2max, which means you cycle slower. So lighter tires and lower rolling resistance are not a significant concern. Riding at a sub 26kph average doesn't require criterion performance from tires.