How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this cheap?

How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this cheap?

Postby durianrider » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:03 pm

How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this cheap? Better warranty than a 15k Colnago...

Azzuri Forza RL


I can't find any reviews online. Anyone point me to em? Cheers.
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by BNA » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:45 pm

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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby usernameforme » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:45 pm

The frame on this looks to be an open-mould chinese frame. Probably only cost $300-$400 to source, if not less. The rear cassette and chain also appear to be the previous generation. There's no denying its good value, but comparing it to a Colnago on spec and warranty alone are a bit unfair IMO. This bike was designed to get a group out at a certain budget, whilst the Colnago is more a cost is no objective dream bike. The manufacturing process on the Colnago is different, a tube to tube construction is much more time and labour consuming than the monocoque construction that is probably used on the forza.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby MarkG » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:25 pm

And being from CE means you might not even get it lol
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby durianrider » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:17 pm

usernameforme wrote:The frame on this looks to be an open-mould chinese frame. Probably only cost $300-$400 to source, if not less. The rear cassette and chain also appear to be the previous generation. There's no denying its good value, but comparing it to a Colnago on spec and warranty alone are a bit unfair IMO. This bike was designed to get a group out at a certain budget, whilst the Colnago is more a cost is no objective dream bike. The manufacturing process on the Colnago is different, a tube to tube construction is much more time and labour consuming than the monocoque construction that is probably used on the forza.



I hear you. Why do Colnago have such short warranties? How can a frame that prolly costs 100$ to make have a lifetime warranty over a company with 'heritage'.?

Id love to see a test jig with this Azzuri vs some of the big $ frames.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby boss » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:19 pm

durianrider wrote:
usernameforme wrote:The frame on this looks to be an open-mould chinese frame. Probably only cost $300-$400 to source, if not less. The rear cassette and chain also appear to be the previous generation. There's no denying its good value, but comparing it to a Colnago on spec and warranty alone are a bit unfair IMO. This bike was designed to get a group out at a certain budget, whilst the Colnago is more a cost is no objective dream bike. The manufacturing process on the Colnago is different, a tube to tube construction is much more time and labour consuming than the monocoque construction that is probably used on the forza.



I hear you. Why do Colnago have such short warranties? How can a frame that prolly costs 100$ to make have a lifetime warranty over a company with 'heritage'.?

Id love to see a test jig with this Azzuri vs some of the big $ frames.


Both frames probably cost similar amounts. Maybe 10-15% more for closed mold
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby neoppg » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:32 pm

Probably because we have been getting ripped off by the big bike companies for to long now. If one thing the Chinese copy market has done is give much better value for money to the consumer. You can get an Azzurri with DI2 for around that same money ATM. I happened to buy a brand new Argon 18 Gallium Pro with Di2 for less than that and I couldn't have bought the groupset for that money.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby durianrider » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:41 pm

Anyone seen any real reviews of the Azzuri bikes? I heard Ride mag did one but can't find anything on the net about it.

Does anyone here have this exact bike?
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby neoppg » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:00 pm

durianrider wrote:Anyone seen any real reviews of the Azzuri bikes? I heard Ride mag did one but can't find anything on the net about it.

Does anyone here have this exact bike?



http://www.bicycles.net.au/2012/08/azzu ... i2-review/
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby durianrider » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:52 pm

Thats the Forza Pro Ultegra. Different frame and groupset to the Forza RL Sram Red?

Its a bit like comparing an Impreza RX vs WRX.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby Zynster » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:11 pm

durianrider wrote:Thats the Forza Pro Ultegra. Different frame and groupset to the Forza RL Sram Red?

Its a bit like comparing an Impreza RX vs WRX.


Bad analogy. The only difference between an RX and a WRX is the motor. Whereas no matter what bike you ride, the motor is the same.

I'm curious as to which group set you think is the WRX? Ultegra DI2 or SRAM Red?
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby usernameforme » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:14 pm

jimboss wrote:Both frames probably cost similar amounts. Maybe 10-15% more for closed mold


The C59 is a tube to tube construction AFAIK, meaning each tube has to be joined together too. Supposedly this construction process is very time consuming and costs alot. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Forza uses a lower grade of carbon, a 12k weave isn't the most expensive cloth.

I'm guessing Azzurri don't invest too much into R&D or marketing, most of your money for the colnago frame would go into that. This is where opinions will differm If you see this as a rip off then buy the chinese frame

durianrider wrote:Thats the Forza Pro Ultegra. Different frame and groupset to the Forza RL Sram Red?


Same frame, Different group
Last edited by usernameforme on Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby boss » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:17 pm

Zynster wrote:
durianrider wrote:Thats the Forza Pro Ultegra. Different frame and groupset to the Forza RL Sram Red?

Its a bit like comparing an Impreza RX vs WRX.


Bad analogy. The only difference between an RX and a WRX is the motor. Whereas no matter what bike you ride, the motor is the same.

I'm curious as to which group set you think is the WRX? Ultegra DI2 or SRAM Red?


Better analogy would be WRX vs 911

Not so much in gruppo but overall package - obviously the frame, group and other components - but do not forget the image and prestige associated with many European brands.

The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing us that Europeans do it better!
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby usernameforme » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:28 pm

jimboss wrote:The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing us that Europeans do it better!


I disagree, If the Europeans weren't around, who would the Chinese "reverse engineer" off?
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby boss » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:33 pm

usernameforme wrote:
jimboss wrote:The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing us that Europeans do it better!


I disagree, If the Europeans weren't around, who would the Chinese "reverse engineer" off?


Was very much tongue in cheek.

However many euro brands do command a price premium due to their brand identity. One would be foolish to argue otherwise.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby biker jk » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:46 pm

usernameforme wrote:
jimboss wrote:The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing us that Europeans do it better!


I disagree, If the Europeans weren't around, who would the Chinese "reverse engineer" off?


If the Asians weren't around, where would Colnago make its monocoque frames? You use the C59 as an example which is made in Italy, but the CX-1 and CLX3 are made in Taiwan (by Giant) and command a price premium over other Taiwanese manufactured frames which doesn't reflect quality but simply branding.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby Philipthelam » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:46 pm

jimboss wrote:
usernameforme wrote:
jimboss wrote:The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing us that Europeans do it better!


I disagree, If the Europeans weren't around, who would the Chinese "reverse engineer" off?


Was very much tongue in cheek.

However many euro brands do command a price premium due to their brand identity. One would be foolish to argue otherwise.


Yeah when you buy a well known brand you're paying for the brand as well.
I also think that cycling express high sales + lower profit/ being an Internet store also helps to lower prices. Also I think they buy direct from wherever they need to get the bike (they might own or be associated with azzuri, I'm not sure) which also means they can lower the prices
Also if you look at the list price I think that's the amount you would pay when you buy an azzuri in an actual store. In this case it is $4300
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby open roader » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:02 pm

durianrider wrote:Why do Colnago have such short warranties?


The majority of frame set warranties cover defective materials and / or workmanship.

Colnago figure that any defect in materials or workmanship in their frames is going to show up within 12 months (or the specified warranty period) assuming the frameset is actually ridden..............
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby usernameforme » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:50 pm

biker jk wrote:If the Asians weren't around, where would Colnago make its monocoque frames? You use the C59 as an example which is made in Italy, but the CX-1 and CLX3 are made in Taiwan (by Giant) and command a price premium over other Taiwanese manufactured frames which doesn't reflect quality but simply branding.


I agree with you there, but I would also credit them a bit of R&D costs for that frame as it seems to be a closed mould, and AFAIK the CX-1 is made in Italy, but bonded in Taiwan. I guess this can become a very heated argument very quickly, so I just want to leave it at this, yes you are paying for the brand name, but the company also has to pay for its brand name, ie they can't sell you junk and their customer service needs to be top notch. I'm not saying that the Chinese frames are junk, but I'm saying that the brand name companies need to invest money in R&D to make sure its not junk, whilst the Chinese (on the most part) seem to copy a proven design.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby bardygrub » Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:22 am

neoppg wrote:Probably because we have been getting ripped off by the big bike companies for to long now. If one thing the Chinese copy market has done is give much better value for money to the consumer. You can get an Azzurri with DI2 for around that same money ATM. I happened to buy a brand new Argon 18 Gallium Pro with Di2 for less than that and I couldn't have bought the groupset for that money.

+1

Just like when virgin started in aus and flights went from around $900 return from melb to darwin down to around 400$
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby Xplora » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:09 am

I'm no Colnago fan boy but there IS a lot of R&D that goes into this stuff. The molding process is quite expensive - the CF is cheap in comparison to building the machine that makes the bikes. They have to build the prototype, test it, throw it away and try a few more times, and this all costs money. The "open mould" market is able to dramatcally reduce this expense, because you have 200,000 bikes to one set of R&D process instead of 2000 (number isn't real, just a comparison).

Zipp makes the comment on their website that their wheels are expensive (more than most bikes!!!) but they are actually putting in more research, more effort, into each of those carbon wheels than the Hongfu frame. At the end of the day, if you want, or need, a top flight frame, you need to be prepared to pay extra for it. Given that part of the game is bragging rights, there is an extra price to pay on top of that R&D. The "heritage" is the history of DECADES of such expensive R&D. Spending twice as long on a frame to make sure it is perfect. I don't mind China building my stuff as long as they get the master craftsman to do the work... I don't want the work experience kid doing my servicing on my car, either.

The warranty is a bit deceptive. On the one hand, it's not very long... but on the other, if you are buying a C59 to race, you will probably replace the bike in 18 months. The original owner doesn't need a longer warranty, and the brand knows it. Does anyone know what Ferrari's warranty is like? Do you think it matters to the boys who buy them? :idea: Warranty and reliability is for people driving Camrys, not HRT race cars :wink:

You must pay if you want to play. No one is forcing you to buy a Colnago, and that's something that must always be considered. I am glad the choice is now there.
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby Alien27 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:28 am

durianrider wrote:How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this cheap? ....


Easy, because its a copy of someone else's design, made by $10 a day labour with very little to no middle men between you and the manufacturer. Next question :mrgreen:
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby boss » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:39 am

Xplora wrote:You must pay if you want to play. No one is forcing you to buy a Colnago, and that's something that must always be considered. I am glad the choice is now there.


Nail on the head right there!
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby biker jk » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:27 am

usernameforme wrote:
biker jk wrote:If the Asians weren't around, where would Colnago make its monocoque frames? You use the C59 as an example which is made in Italy, but the CX-1 and CLX3 are made in Taiwan (by Giant) and command a price premium over other Taiwanese manufactured frames which doesn't reflect quality but simply branding.


I agree with you there, but I would also credit them a bit of R&D costs for that frame as it seems to be a closed mould, and AFAIK the CX-1 is made in Italy, but bonded in Taiwan. I guess this can become a very heated argument very quickly, so I just want to leave it at this, yes you are paying for the brand name, but the company also has to pay for its brand name, ie they can't sell you junk and their customer service needs to be top notch. I'm not saying that the Chinese frames are junk, but I'm saying that the brand name companies need to invest money in R&D to make sure its not junk, whilst the Chinese (on the most part) seem to copy a proven design.


Actually, the CX-1 is fully manufactured in Taiwan (see link to article below). So Colnago is happy to have Asia build its monocoque bikes and charge a hefty premium over similar bikes sold by its manufacturer Giant. That is indeed called branding.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2012/02/09/colnago-resurgent-us#.ULKmy-SR-So
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby usernameforme » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:10 am

biker jk wrote:That is indeed called branding.


Or R&D
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Re: How can a HM carbon bike with FULL sram red 2012 this ch

Postby biker jk » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:28 am

usernameforme wrote:
biker jk wrote:That is indeed called branding.


Or R&D


So Giant doesn't spend on R&D for its frames? Do tell how a Colnago frame made by Giant is superior to Giants own frames to justify the price difference?
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