23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

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23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby splitz » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:06 am

Hi,

This thread is for a mate. He's about to but a Scott S20 Flat Bar racer and is opting for 28C Conti gatorskin Hardshells. He's a big bloke ((AT) 6'4"/110kgs) and I think concerned about the skinny tyres for his size.

I'm trying to convince him to go 23C. My selling points to him are: Light/faster, no more prone to punctures than wider tyres, handle just as well, better in wet due to less rubber on road = less aquaplane!

Just chasing some feedback for him on the "pros & cons" of the 23C/25C/28C comparison. I'll send him a link to this thread.

The wheels will by Mavic Aksiums.

Cheers

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by BNA » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:24 am

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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:24 am

28mm have lower rolling resistance
23mm have better aerodynamics
25mm is inbetween

Is he a fast rider? If not then let him get 28mm. He can always go thinner later when they wear out
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby MountGower » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:42 am

All else being equal, the size question is an easy one. 28c wins by a mile, until such time that he is averaging over 30kph, which will probably be never.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:12 pm

Aquaplane :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

At his size, the 28C are probably the best overall in terms of comfort, grip, handling etc, etc.

As others have said before, stick with what he has.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby stusf » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:22 pm

Worth keeping in mind, most road brakes will not open wide enough to remove the wheel with a 28c tire mounted. You have to leave enough play in the barrel adjuster to open it up it each time. If you transport your bike a lot or work on it frequently it's a PITA, constantly having to screw in the barrel adjuster then out again. It's a struggle with some 25c tires too.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:22 pm

MichaelB wrote:Aquaplane :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:


I missed that one. Bicycles tyres don't Aquaplane unless you are running 40psi and exceeding 105kph. They also don't need rain grooves and in fact a slick with the same construction will grip better in the wet.

Lots of interesting info here

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby sblack » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:29 pm

At 110 kg a 23 would be a very poor tyre choice. Check out the tiredrop article and work out what pressure he would be running in his rear tyre to optimally support the weight. A 23 would need somehwere over 150 psi, even a 28 is still going to need something like 110 psi in it. I see no reason for him to go thinner than the 28.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby rustychisel » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:09 pm

Agreed, for a big bloke 25c if he's feeling fast and sporty, but more likely 28c
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby splitz » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:17 pm

Thanks guys, he's read the posts and will stick with the 28's, I'll stand corrected!

I'm 100 Kgs now, was riding up to 103-105 Kgs with 23's and never had any issues, just ran them at max 120psi!

Cheers and thanks very much for the replies.

Splitz

PS: Aquaplane...hee hee..me feels stooopid now! (I'm sure they do but at 120psi/30kph prolly unnoticable!)
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:45 pm

Most of the roadies here (including me) do run 23's but there's nothing wrong with 25's or 28's
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby Jerry68 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:44 pm

Hello all.

I am actually the mate of Splitz and the subject matter of the original post.
Just thought I'd finally register and join in the fun.
Thanks for all your advice. I'm actually 120 kgs which may be even more reason to go for the bigger tyre. I'm also using it to commute and about half the journey is on very average dual use paths with all the obligatory potholes, tree roots and kerbs.
Based on what I've read so far I'll be going for at least a 25.

Cheers,

Jerry.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:02 pm

Welcome to the forum Jerry

Whatever size you get, your going to enjoy your riding
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:13 pm

splitz wrote:Hi,

This thread is for a mate. He's about to but a Scott S20 Flat Bar racer and is opting for 28C Conti gatorskin Hardshells. He's a big bloke ((AT) 6'4"/110kgs) and I think concerned about the skinny tyres for his size.

I'm trying to convince him to go 23C. My selling points to him are: Light/faster, no more prone to punctures than wider tyres, handle just as well, better in wet due to less rubber on road = less aquaplane!

Just chasing some feedback for him on the "pros & cons" of the 23C/25C/28C comparison. I'll send him a link to this thread.

The wheels will by Mavic Aksiums.

Cheers

Splitzzzzz


Actually some of the feedback from the tyre suppliers is that wider is faster. The skinny tyres are FAR more puncture prone than wider ones. Your mate is a big boy so punctures and wheel reliability will probably be an issue for him until he gets the weight down.

I'd be sticking with his 28's if they fit which obviously they do. If/when he gets into the low 90kg mark maybe goto 25's and stick with them.

I'm only 68kg and I have a set of Schwalbe Ultremo's on my race clinchers, 25mm front & rear and I reckon they are the FASTEST clincher I've ridden - and even though they are paper thin because of the width touch wood I am yet to puncture them. I hear the guys running the narrower version of this same tyre reckon they arn't too good in the puncture department.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby Sheepy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:27 am

I'm 125kg and got 23s on my new bike. Probably not the best but I'll try and buy some 25s/28s later on. But im oh so broke T_T
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby jacks1071 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:36 am

Sheepy wrote:I'm 125kg and got 23s on my new bike. Probably not the best but I'll try and buy some 25s/28s later on. But im oh so broke T_T


Make sure you measure your frame and fork clearance before you order the wider tyres to ensure they arn't going to rub anywhere.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby ghettro » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:23 pm

Unless you're racing or doing serious riding, I'd avoid 23's. Not worth the hassle of extra likelyhood of punctures, also 23's tend to be higher pressure, so they tend to need to be pumped up more often to their optimal pressure than lower pressure wider tyres.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby V17L » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:04 pm

Hi
Just doing calculations for my weight of 110kg, it seems that I should be running 28mm tyres instead of the 23mm tyres I currently am. If I thought about it, I would suspect that being this heavy it would not make any real tangible difference to rollng resistance going to the 28mm. Would I be correct on this?

Also, I inflate my 4WD tyres cold, and being in the redcentre, the temperatures get hot during summer. I assume the tyre pressures mentioned are for cold tyres, and that as the tyres warm up, so the pressure increases. Does anyone know by how much the pressure increases. I am thinking about tyre maximum pressures. I know my 4wd tyres are generally accepted to increase in pressure by 3 - 5psi, cold to hot.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby jacks1071 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:16 pm

V17L wrote:Hi
Just doing calculations for my weight of 110kg, it seems that I should be running 28mm tyres instead of the 23mm tyres I currently am. If I thought about it, I would suspect that being this heavy it would not make any real tangible difference to rollng resistance going to the 28mm. Would I be correct on this?

Also, I inflate my 4WD tyres cold, and being in the redcentre, the temperatures get hot during summer. I assume the tyre pressures mentioned are for cold tyres, and that as the tyres warm up, so the pressure increases. Does anyone know by how much the pressure increases. I am thinking about tyre maximum pressures. I know my 4wd tyres are generally accepted to increase in pressure by 3 - 5psi, cold to hot.
cheers
steve


I don't think you need to worry about hot/cold pressures as you won't see much variation unless you are doing monster decents on the brakes which don't exist out there :-)

I reckon 25's would roll faster than your 23's - 28 is probably getting into training territory but grab a set and try it.

I just got a road tandem this week and will be testing some wider tyres in the comming months.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby splitz » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:41 am

ghettro wrote:Unless you're racing or doing serious riding, I'd avoid 23's. Not worth the hassle of extra likelyhood of punctures, also 23's tend to be higher pressure, so they tend to need to be pumped up more often to their optimal pressure than lower pressure wider tyres.


I don't think the narrower tyres are any more prone to flats than the wider ones. I'm 100Kgs on 23C and can't recall the last flat I had. When I first started many years ago, I used to get flats all the time until my LBS told me to inflate tyres to whatever maximum presuure is written on them. Since then, obviously get flats occasionally but never a problem.

The theory from the LBS was that you obviously can't make the rubber compound harder, but by going the max. pressure, things that might otherwise push against a slightly less rigid tyre surface and penetrate, would break off instead (due to the higher pressure). I'm not sure if this is good sound theory, but like said, since running the higher pressures, never looked back. I ran 25C on a 2nd bike a few years ago and got no more or less flats on that.

With respect to which tyre is faster, I find the 23C def faster than 25C. My theory is running 23C at higher pressure produces less tyre drop, less tyre in contact with road surface so less rolling resistance?

The trade offs I've found are the 23C at high pressure don't last as long. They get a flat spot quicker than the wider tyres. And you feel every bump in the road too!

I only pump the tyres up (AT) once a week and they don't seem to lose much pressure in that time!

Cheers and thanks again for all the feedback.

Splitz
PS: Some-one suggested Jerry might one day get down to 90 Kgs. I can't see this ever happening, not being rude, he's not fat at all, just a big bloke with a big frame. The sort of bloke you want on your side in any cycle-rage incidents ;-)
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby Aushiker » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:35 pm

splitz wrote:With respect to which tyre is faster, I find the 23C def faster than 25C. My theory is running 23C at higher pressure produces less tyre drop, less tyre in contact with road surface so less rolling resistance?


Hi

Sheldon would agree with you ...

The friction caused by the flexing of the tire and tube as it deforms under load, and of the wheel bearings. For a given tire, rolling resistance will vary considerably with the inflation pressure: the higher the pressure, the lower the rolling resistance. The rolling resistance of the tire and tube is typically far higher than that of the bearings.


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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:20 pm

Until you get to a point where the bike bounces rather than roll over the micro bumps
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby twizzle » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:43 pm

23 is faster than 25/28 mainly due to aero, not rolling resistance. As long as deformation in the tread is kept to a minimum, rolling resistance will be low.

As for aquaplaning - I had a very bad experience in a race at 50+kph down a hill in pouring rain when I ended up in polished wheel ruts, the bike was moving around from side to side, an absolutely horrible feeling. As there shouldn't have been any directional load on the tyre at the time, I suspect it was aquaplaning. Scared the crackers out of me.
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby scotto » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:54 pm

100kg, i run 23c michelin pro3 on the front (AT) ~115psi, and am trialling a michelin pro rear optimised 25c on the rear (AT)~90psi. So far I have no complaints, and if being honest, i dont think its faster slower overall. A bit more comfortable on rougher bitumen, and I know for sure I corner a hell of a lot faster, but i think thats grip from softer rubber rather than tyre size. The rubino pro i replaced were fine, but i didnt corner as well.
hopefully the rear optimised 25 will wear out more evenly (as advertised).
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby twizzle » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:39 pm

scotto wrote:...i run 23c michelin pro3...


Got your spare tubes and pump at the ready? :P
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Re: 23c -v- 25C -v- 28C

Postby Jerry68 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:10 pm

Hello all.

Thanks for all the advice. Just as a bit of a footnote I ended up with what I thought was a 700 x 28 tyre, (as per the invoice), but to be honest it looked a little narrow for a 28. The tyres fitted were Continental Gator Hardshells and I gave up trying to read the sidewall with my tired old eyes to confirm the size, (very hard to see on these tyres).

Turns out I'm actually running on 700 x 25s and I've had about 5 punctures since getting the bike. One flat was from glass going through the tyre, (looked like from the neck of a bottle), and another was a freak crash after running over the edge of a crescent spanner. The others are a little more mysterious and seem to come from the inside of the rim which indicates a spoke head or similar. I've checked and checked and can't find anything sharp.

I've just thrown Schwalbe 700 x 25s on and so far so good. I'm not sure why the bike shop put on 25s when they told me 28s. Maybe the 28s, (as mentioned in this thread), didn't give the required clearance for the brakes. They may not have told me as I collected the bike from someone other than the person I was initially dealing with.

I see the 25s as a bit of a compromise and pretty happy but feel that I might have had a little less puncture trouble with a wider tyre, (ie: having my weight a little more distributed).

I'll see how the new tyres go anyway.
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