Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:38 pm

Nobody wrote:Not wanting to get in the middle of this "discussion", I'll just post a couple of links with some evidence and opinion (although from the manufacturers) as to why they believe wider rims are better.

http://www.hedcycling.com/true_speed.asp
http://www.hedcycling.com/ardennes/defa ... content=FR (Select "Aero Data")
http://www.velocitywheels.com/store/pro ... 18&c=14051

I think the title of this thread is a bit confusing since I consider racing wheels to be different to commuter wheels.


For me a propper racing wheel is Tubular but the Bracciano is a perfect club-race wheel that will do everything admirably.

Since we are talking about Aero - You need to compare the entire package, rim width is just one item.

Take the HED Ardennes CL $850 for the set, 1642g, 24/28 spoke - based on HED's data at a 15 degree yaw angle the difference in the aerodynamics was nothing. The biggest gain on their data was almost directly into a head wind, how often are you at like a 0-7.5 degree head wind angle?

The wheels are more than double the price of the Bracciano. They are heavier 1642g vs 1482g and you are pushing 8x more spokes through the air, Bracciano is 20/24 spokes with almost the same rider weight recommendation.

Once you offset the drag from the extra spokes and the increased weight I bet there wouldn't be much in it, except the $450 the Bracciano left in your wallet.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby usernameforme » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:50 pm

jacks1071 wrote:Its interesting you have so much knowledge on wide rims since you keep telling everyone to build wheels with a Kinlin XR-270 which has similar dimensions to a Bracciano rim.

Similar dimensions but not the same, The XR-270 is 1mm wider, and I never claimed that that rim was aero. It does have a decent tyre-brake track-rim transition, but there are better options if you want aero, such as the XC-279 (same as the BHS c472w). I won't deny that I am a fan of the XR-270, or Kinlin rims. They have a nice weight (for the profile), great price and good stiffness.

jacks1071 wrote:The wheels are more than double the price of the Bracciano. They are heavier 1642g vs 1482g and you are pushing 8x more spokes through the air, Bracciano is 20/24 spokes with almost the same rider weight recommendation.

Once you offset the drag from the extra spokes and the increased weight I bet there wouldn't be much in it


Your Braccianos are more like 1500g than 1482, The HED's should also have a softer ride too because of their shallower and wider profile. I've also heard that the Ardennes CL actually come in at 1510g, so there isn't much difference in the weight. The 1642g is more closer to the GP (1580g if I remember correctly) than the CL. Where did you get that 1642 weight figure from?
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:35 pm

jacks1071 wrote:For me a proper racing wheel is Tubular but the Bracciano is a perfect club-race wheel that will do everything admirably.
You are probably right, but I still think that commuter wheels for me are more like the Handspun Pavement Series which are more durability over weight and aero. I hope to get 10 years plus out of my wheels. Then again some people commute on deep dish carbon, so obviously opinions on what is a commuter wheelset varies considerably.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:37 pm

usernameforme wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:Its interesting you have so much knowledge on wide rims since you keep telling everyone to build wheels with a Kinlin XR-270 which has similar dimensions to a Bracciano rim.

Similar dimensions but not the same, The XR-270 is 1mm wider, and I never claimed that that rim was aero. It does have a decent tyre-brake track-rim transition, but there are better options if you want aero, such as the XC-279 (same as the BHS c472w). I won't deny that I am a fan of the XR-270, or Kinlin rims. They have a nice weight (for the profile), great price and good stiffness.

jacks1071 wrote:The wheels are more than double the price of the Bracciano. They are heavier 1642g vs 1482g and you are pushing 8x more spokes through the air, Bracciano is 20/24 spokes with almost the same rider weight recommendation.

Once you offset the drag from the extra spokes and the increased weight I bet there wouldn't be much in it


Your Braccianos are more like 1500g than 1482, The HED's should also have a softer ride too because of their shallower and wider profile. I've also heard that the Ardennes CL actually come in at 1510g, so there isn't much difference in the weight. The 1642g is more closer to the GP (1580g if I remember correctly) than the CL. Where did you get that 1642 weight figure from?


Do you just make this stuff up or did you actually buy a set of Bracciano's?

Bracciano average weight is 1482g without rim tape, should be approx 1500g with rim tape.

You can see the weight on the Ardennes CL on their website: http://www.hedcycling.com.au/ardennes/d ... content=CL

Softer ride from the HED? So now you are saying that a wider rim with more spokes will flex more than a narrower rim with less spokes?

Maybe you should buy a set of each and maybe you can form an opinion with some real world experience.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby Philipthelam » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:47 pm

Usernameforme..... Just stop.

Advice to OP: The Pro lite braccianos are great all round wheels for the purposes you described. They also fit within your budget. Buy them :D
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby usernameforme » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:15 am

jacks1071 wrote:[
Do you just make this stuff up or did you actually buy a set of Bracciano's?

Bracciano average weight is 1482g without rim tape, should be approx 1500g with rim tape.

You can see the weight on the Ardennes CL on their website: http://www.hedcycling.com.au/ardennes/d ... content=CL

Softer ride from the HED? So now you are saying that a wider rim with more spokes will flex more than a narrower rim with less spokes?


The Bracciano that I have seen comes in at 1501g, perhaps this is an odd one out

My mistake with the HED wheels, I read somewhere that they came in at 1510g

The reason why I say the HEDs have a softer ride is because they create a different profile with their wider rim. As you said earlier "Wider rims are more about increasing the air volume in the tyre". The rims are also shallower which allows longer spoke lengths and a lower brace angle. This should result in a softer ride

Philipthelam wrote:Usernameforme..... Just stop.

okay, last post in this topic, I'm getting tired of this myself...
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jacks1071 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:43 pm

usernameforme wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:[
Do you just make this stuff up or did you actually buy a set of Bracciano's?

Bracciano average weight is 1482g without rim tape, should be approx 1500g with rim tape.

You can see the weight on the Ardennes CL on their website: http://www.hedcycling.com.au/ardennes/d ... content=CL

Softer ride from the HED? So now you are saying that a wider rim with more spokes will flex more than a narrower rim with less spokes?


The Bracciano that I have seen comes in at 1501g, perhaps this is an odd one out

My mistake with the HED wheels, I read somewhere that they came in at 1510g

The reason why I say the HEDs have a softer ride is because they create a different profile with their wider rim. As you said earlier "Wider rims are more about increasing the air volume in the tyre". The rims are also shallower which allows longer spoke lengths and a lower brace angle. This should result in a softer ride

Philipthelam wrote:Usernameforme..... Just stop.

okay, last post in this topic, I'm getting tired of this myself...


As already stated the 1501g would be with rim tape, Pro-Lite (and most brands) publish average weights minus skewers and rim tape.

If you had a set of your own, stripped them down and checked the weight with a calibrated scale you would have a clearer picture.

You can't compare ride comfort between the HED and a Bracciano without riding them for yourself - they are too different. The rims are completely different width and profile, possibly different alloy as well and the HED has 4 more spokes. I doubt there would be much difference in the stiffness, what the HED gives away in rim depth it makes up by increasing the spoke count. Even though the products are different I bet they would ride pretty similar, the only major difference I can see is to your back pocket.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby biker jk » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:47 pm

jacks1071 wrote:
Nobody wrote:Not wanting to get in the middle of this "discussion", I'll just post a couple of links with some evidence and opinion (although from the manufacturers) as to why they believe wider rims are better.

http://www.hedcycling.com/true_speed.asp
http://www.hedcycling.com/ardennes/defa ... content=FR (Select "Aero Data")
http://www.velocitywheels.com/store/pro ... 18&c=14051

I think the title of this thread is a bit confusing since I consider racing wheels to be different to commuter wheels.


For me a propper racing wheel is Tubular but the Bracciano is a perfect club-race wheel that will do everything admirably.

Since we are talking about Aero - You need to compare the entire package, rim width is just one item.

Take the HED Ardennes CL $850 for the set, 1642g, 24/28 spoke - based on HED's data at a 15 degree yaw angle the difference in the aerodynamics was nothing. The biggest gain on their data was almost directly into a head wind, how often are you at like a 0-7.5 degree head wind angle?

The wheels are more than double the price of the Bracciano. They are heavier 1642g vs 1482g and you are pushing 8x more spokes through the air, Bracciano is 20/24 spokes with almost the same rider weight recommendation.

Once you offset the drag from the extra spokes and the increased weight I bet there wouldn't be much in it, except the $450 the Bracciano left in your wallet.


Just thought I would point out some of the trade offs that you don't mention. If your wheels have almost the same rider weight limits as the HED Ardennens but use 8 fewer spokes then presumably you would need a stiffer (heavier) rim to achieve this. But your wheels are 160g lighter and the 8 fewer spokes would account for only around a third of that difference. So you are either using pretty light weight rims (and hence the issue of durability versus the Ardennes arises) or very light hubs (again, thickness of flange would present a durability issue as well). I'm not trying to be picky but just highlighting the trade-offs involved in wheel building.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby warthog1 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:13 pm

Plenty of guys on here have bought the braccianos and overwhelmingly the feedback has been positive. Since the OP has come here for advice /feedback I would go with that :).
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby Johndec » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:52 pm

ACTUAL USER EXPERIENCE: I've done about 1000 kms on my Braccianos and I can't fault them. Light, strong, handle my 90+ kg bodyweight no problems. They are still as true as the day I put them on the bike and I haven't been kind to them. They've seen some rough roads and bike paths with some nasty pram ramp drops that rattle my teeth.. I can't say the same for the Fulcrum 5's they replaced. Don't get me wrong, the Fulcrums are great wheels but riding the same routes, the front wheel would require truing every 500kms or so. Fulcrum 5's cost about the same as the Braccianos, weigh around 200g more and in my experience are not as tough.

Buy the Braccianos. In the unlikely event you are not happy with them, Deon (Jacks1071), the local distributor, is here every day to sort out your problems and probably give you a refund if necessary.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jasonc » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:04 pm

Johndec wrote:Buy the Braccianos. In the unlikely event you are not happy with them, Deon (Jacks1071), the local distributor, is here every day to sort out your problems and probably give you a refund if necessary.


+1

I have both pro-lite como's (for commuting on my flat bar) and bracciano's (on the roadie). I wouldn't have bought the bracciano's if the como's were not good (have done ~7000kms with them and not treated "nicely")
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby Shpox » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:47 pm

Apologies for the bump, but it seems the overwhelming response is Pro lite Braccianos, however I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts regarding FarSport's 38mm Carbon Clincher wheelset. They weigh in at 1420g for the pair and they come with Sapim spokes and an Alu trackpad so you don't need to worry about break pads. I was aiming to go for Ceramic Edhubs and this doesn't seem too bad for a wheel for $400. Everyone that has bought a pair seem to be very content. :mrgreen:

Bracciano's are only 100g more and proven. Thoughts?

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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby usernameforme » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:34 pm

Not sure about the Ed-hubs, but the Novatec hubs are really good for the price, the rear flange spacings are quite good and they build into solid wheels. Only gripe is that they are quite heavy, but FWIW, the SL version is only 10g heavier than the Alchemy ORC (which is comparing apples to pears, but my point is its not that porky). The front SL hubs are one of the lightest I know of at it's price-point.

EDIT: have you looked at this? looks like a bargain to me, cheaper than what I can source the parts for myself... Weight seems misleading though, it'll be more a 1450ish build, would love to be proven wrong though :mrgreen:
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby Shpox » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:02 pm

Heard good things about the Novatec hubs too mate. I believe it was their original installment for their carbon wheels as the edhubs have yet to get feedback and they're a bit new.

Although the monocoque fashion of Carbon seem to give it strength, it seems like a property better reserved for a frame. From what I've seen in terms of wheels, it tends to warp a bit more under stress which leads me to think they're not ideal for a daily commuter. By looking at the Bracciano's and the Yishun one you've posted, we're talking +-100 g for either the Carbon or Alu.

This begs me to think if weight is close to uniform, which is the better material? Are there any inherent properties that make Carbon spin up faster than Alu if the weight remains the same?
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby usernameforme » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:44 pm

Shpox wrote:This begs me to think if weight is close to uniform, which is the better material? Are there any inherent properties that make Carbon spin up faster than Alu if the weight remains the same?

I personally prefer Alloy, but my reasons for this are because I am not the most confident descender in the wet and my braking technique is not perfect. If you're a competent bike handler, you should be able to get away with carbon clinchers, however I would advise going tubular if you can. I've noticed no difference between the spin up of carbon and alloy rims of the same weight (XR-300 vs Reynolds Attack). Initial braking with XR-300 and Attack are similar, however the Attack's seem to "fade" a little. IMO the only reason to go carbon is for the "aero benefit" that it supposedly offers, But I'll be very surprised if you can notice this. If you're not racing, I'd go with alloy, better everyday material IMO. If you are a relatively light rider (say under 65kg), you can build alloy clinchers to be lighter than a similar carbon clincher. Rims like the Stan's ZTR 340 and Kinlin XR-200 are very light and build into sub 1300g wheels.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby kokoman » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:19 pm

Johndec wrote:ACTUAL USER EXPERIENCE: I've done about 1000 kms on my Braccianos and I can't fault them.


Do these come with rim tape?
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jacks1071 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:01 am

kokoman wrote:
Johndec wrote:ACTUAL USER EXPERIENCE: I've done about 1000 kms on my Braccianos and I can't fault them.


Do these come with rim tape?


Yes, Rim tape is included.

Skewers are also included.

You only need to add tyres, tubes & cassette (which we can supply fitted if required).
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby Shpox » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:23 pm

usernameforme wrote:
Shpox wrote: IMO the only reason to go carbon is for the "aero benefit" that it supposedly offers, But I'll be very surprised if you can notice this. If you're not racing, I'd go with alloy, better everyday material IMO. If you are a relatively light rider (say under 65kg), you can build alloy clinchers to be lighter than a similar carbon clincher. Rims like the Stan's ZTR 340 and Kinlin XR-200 are very light and build into sub 1300g wheels.


Thanks. I think the aero-benefit of say deep dish rims is really negligible if I'm not racing. I'm sure it's there, but I think a 38mm rim depth is more than fine. I'm a 58kg rider and definitely share the same sentiments as alloy being the preferable material for everyday use, though I have little real world experience with Carbon to back this up. I guess if they're no difference in their spin up and the rim depths match, I'd rather an Alu rim and trackpad that could take a bit of knock without worrying about warping, heat or pad issues. :mrgreen:
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:12 am

Shpox wrote:Thanks. I think the aero-benefit of say deep dish rims is really negligible if I'm not racing. I'm sure it's there, but I think a 38mm rim depth is more than fine. I'm a 58kg rider and definitely share the same sentiments as alloy being the preferable material for everyday use, though I have little real world experience with Carbon to back this up. I guess if they're no difference in their spin up and the rim depths match, I'd rather an Alu rim and trackpad that could take a bit of knock without worrying about warping, heat or pad issues. :mrgreen:


You don't need to be "racing" to go faster with better wheels, afterall isn't any ride with 2 or more people a race?

That being said I agree with you based on economic reasons that for training most people would be better off on a cheaper, alloy wheelset. Even I don't train on Carbon wheels and I have hundreds of sets at my disposal.

If you can afford to ride on carbons and not get too upset if you break one, then go for it, its a small price to pay if you gain extra enjoyment from your riding.

At 58kg I wouldn't go too deep as cross winds will really knock you around with deeper wheels unless you are an exceptionally strong rider. I would think that something from 22mm-30mm would be your best choice.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby coffeeandwine » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:21 pm

Also thinking about a new set of wheels but rather than start another thread...

Don't need to race on them, would be used to commute (local roads are quite rough in places, include small section of unsealed) and long social rides/training. Would much prefer alloy for braking performance on steep down hill/ in the wet.

The Bracciano's sound like a nice wheel, lots of good comments but do they have a weight limit (ie would they cope with a 95-100kg rider)?

Most wheels that I've looked at seem to have a spoke count around 20F/24R, yet much of the stuff i have read suggests higher counts (eg 32) build a stronger wheel. Would I be better with a higher spoke count or are other factors such as strength of rim more important? I note that in the Pro-Lite stable the Merano and Como wheels are heavier than the Bracciano's, same spoke count (20/24) yet have a higher weight limit/more bomb proof; I presume the extra weight is in the rims?

Also, is there much difference in lacing patterns? It sounds like 3x and 2x are stronger than radial, so I get why a lot of front wheels are laced radial and 2x on rear. However, some of the Easton wheels are laced radial on NDS of rear and 2x on DS. What effect does this have on stiffness/strength etc or is it just aesthetics?

Still learning about all this, would appreciate your thoughts...
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby usernameforme » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:29 pm

coffeeandwine wrote:do they have a weight limit (ie would they cope with a 95-100kg rider)?

From user reports they appear to be fine, I'd wait for Deon's (Jacks1071) confirmation though. I would recommend 24/28 as a minimum at 95-100kg.

coffeeandwine wrote:Most wheels that I've looked at seem to have a spoke count around 20F/24R, yet much of the stuff i have read suggests higher counts (eg 32) build a stronger wheel. Would I be better with a higher spoke count or are other factors such as strength of rim more important? I note that in the Pro-Lite stable the Merano and Como wheels are heavier than the Bracciano's, same spoke count (20/24) yet have a higher weight limit/more bomb proof; I presume the extra weight is in the rims?

Low spoke count wheels need stiffer (usually heavier) rims to be strong. Less spokes means less support for the rim, so it needs to be stiffer to compensate.

coffeeandwine wrote:Also, is there much difference in lacing patterns? It sounds like 3x and 2x are stronger than radial, so I get why a lot of front wheels are laced radial and 2x on rear. However, some of the Easton wheels are laced radial on NDS of rear and 2x on DS. What effect does this have on stiffness/strength etc or is it just aesthetics?

Lacing patterns effect the spoke tension, bracing angle (stiffness) and spoke length. Hub flanges and rim stiffness/depth also effect this. It gets really complicated once you start mixing 3x and 2x with either heads out or heads-in patterns. This link should help if you are interested. Radial lacing stresses the flanges alot more than say 1x or 2x, when used on the NDS it can prevent spokes breaking when they rub against each other where they cross (this can happen because NDS tensions are lower than DS tensions).
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jacks1071 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:47 am

coffeeandwine wrote:
The Bracciano's sound like a nice wheel, lots of good comments but do they have a weight limit (ie would they cope with a 95-100kg rider)?

Most wheels that I've looked at seem to have a spoke count around 20F/24R, yet much of the stuff i have read suggests higher counts (eg 32) build a stronger wheel. Would I be better with a higher spoke count or are other factors such as strength of rim more important? I note that in the Pro-Lite stable the Merano and Como wheels are heavier than the Bracciano's, same spoke count (20/24) yet have a higher weight limit/more bomb proof; I presume the extra weight is in the rims?

Also, is there much difference in lacing patterns? It sounds like 3x and 2x are stronger than radial, so I get why a lot of front wheels are laced radial and 2x on rear. However, some of the Easton wheels are laced radial on NDS of rear and 2x on DS. What effect does this have on stiffness/strength etc or is it just aesthetics?

Still learning about all this, would appreciate your thoughts...


Recommended maximum rider weight for Bracciano is 100kg.

Merano and Como wheels have deeper and heavier rims, heavier gauge spokes and heavier hubs when compared to the Bracciano. The Merano is still a pretty light wheelset, just the rim is deeper than Bracciano combined with spokes and different hubs it adds up to approx 190g extra weight.

Como has same type of spokes as the Merano but uses Brass instead of Alloy nipples, different hub and a heavier rim. The rim in the Como is what allows 120kg riders to use a 20/24 wheelset. I use Como rims on our Tandem, they are very strong.

Radial lacing anywhere on the rear wheel in my opinion is a bad idea, especially for a bigger rider who needs ultimate strength from their wheels.

For the type of riding you are talking about, I'd get a set of Como's for everyday work and some Bracciano's to use on the weekends. That way you've got something low cost and strong for during the week and something special to ride on the weekend.
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jasonc » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:10 am

jacks1071 wrote:For the type of riding you are talking about, I'd get a set of Como's for everyday work and some Bracciano's to use on the weekends. That way you've got something low cost and strong for during the week and something special to ride on the weekend.


that sounds familiar....
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby jacks1071 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:53 am

jasonc wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:For the type of riding you are talking about, I'd get a set of Como's for everyday work and some Bracciano's to use on the weekends. That way you've got something low cost and strong for during the week and something special to ride on the weekend.


that sounds familiar....


I had a buddy/customer up from Brisbane last weekend and I loaned him a Pro-Lite Cuneo so he could come on our bunch ride. About half way through he was like "Man these wheels are awesome, which model are they and how much do they cost??" - he nearly fell off when I told him they were the cheapest ones we had (Como's).
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Re: Racing and Commuter wheelset under 400aud

Postby TimW » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:56 am

I have como's on my no 2 bike and cannot speak highliy enough about them, will definately get another set down the track. For the price point and the quality, these cannot be beaten. No affiliation, all I am is a happy customer that does plenty of k's :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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