Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby RonK » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:51 pm

Nobody wrote:
dale79 wrote:please enlighten us DI2 owners what the so called extra complexity and life limits are of the electronics..
Motors have seals and bearings which wear out and can have brushes too depending on motor type. Batteries age and hold less capacity in time. Battery needs to be charged and therefore needs a charger. Contact switches (buttons) wear out. Electronic components (although usually fairly long lived) don't last forever either and can suffer from heat and vibration. Water ingress can cause significant problems with corrosion of electronics.

Hmmmm, servo motors with brushes are as old fashioned as cable-actuated derailleurs. Batteries and chargers are far from new-fangled either - every household has them in numbers.
All the other potential "issues" you mention - wear, heat, vibration, corrosion apply equally to mechanical systems. You must try harder.
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby sogood » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:10 pm

dale79 wrote:please enlighten us DI2 owners what the so called extra complexity and life limits are of the electronics..

Unless you have reinvented electronics products, all electronics devices have a limited lifespan and a short product cycle. Just look at your computers, calculators, Li batteries, electrical contacts and switches amongst others. For a Campag owner, rather than just replacing chains, cassettes and the G-spring every so often, I'll have to deal with Li battery (environment hazard), failure rate of electronic equipments on top.

As said, these liabilities are a consideration for the type of riding I do.
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:19 pm

Have Shimano developed Di2 for mtb's yet? If not, why not?
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby ratter » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:31 pm

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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby sogood » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:36 pm

ratter wrote:and mechanical systems don't have any wear, cable stretch, dirt or road grime entering moving parts and restricting their operation?
all systems can require some maintenance, it's just the tools and knowledge to do it may vary

True that all systems require maintenance but the cost with electronic "gadgets" will always be a tier higher and the environmental stresses greater. That's just a fact of life with the electronic gadget economy.
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby macca33 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:14 pm

Having spoken to a few people with Di2 who are VERY impressed with the technology, I reckon it is a good thing - if you want it and can afford to have it. Otherwise, mechanical is just as good, reliable and easy to use.

What really impresses me is how they've been able to package the electronic systems, motors on derailleurs, etc; and how reliable the systems appear to be.

I may consider it on the first new bike I purchase - shall just have to wait and see.

cheers
'dale CAAD10 Berzerker Ult6800 & CAAD10 Team Ult6800

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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby Philipthelam » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:28 pm

dale79 wrote:please enlighten us DI2 owners what the so called extra complexity and life limits are of the electronics..


:roll:

The extra cost is $2500 plus the time of removing the old groupset and replacing it with di2


Or


The cost of a new part if something like the FD or RD breaks
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby ratter » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:13 pm

I'm glad I'm mechanically minded because if I wasn't and I was reading this I could think that mechanical groupsets do not ever break, stop working and need cable replacements and electrical ones will fail in a very short period or if I get my bike wet, and will require a second mortgage to rectify
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby SmellyTofu » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:15 pm

It's so funny to see the people freaking out about electronics. If you don't like it, don't get it but don't go scaremongering others just because you don't trust the system. In fact those electronics have been proven to be reliable time and time again so you can either still be a denier, or you can embrace the change. But don't worry, There'll still be Sora mechanicals you can buy in 2020. Enjoy!
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby Nobody » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:19 pm

RonK wrote:Hmmmm, servo motors with brushes are as old fashioned as cable-actuated derailleurs. Batteries and chargers are far from new-fangled either - every household has them in numbers.
All the other potential "issues" you mention - wear, heat, vibration, corrosion apply equally to mechanical systems. You must try harder.
Hmmmm, I don't really have to try harder. I don't have to worry about it all. I hope you enjoy your toys. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Nobody on Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby ratter » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:26 pm

My mechanical shifter was aggrovating my Golfers elbow, Di2 does not,


odd situation but a benefit to me
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby Nobody » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:31 pm

SmellyTofu wrote:There'll still be Sora mechanicals you can buy in 2020. Enjoy!
Good. It will probably be as functional as the current DA and a fraction of the price. Not a problem. :D
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby Cmm » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:52 pm

MarkG wrote:Would love to upgrade to Di2 but I also would like to stay married..



Ditto! Tried to spin the advantage of it all bu no luck so am going to end up with defy advanced frame with tiagra instead of the Di2 but am happy with the compromise better than no upgrade lol
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:56 pm

ratter wrote:http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-xtr-di2-electronic-mtb-drivetrain-spotted-33294/


->
"Then again, it's possible that Kabush posted the images merely as a prank. His comments provide little clue either way. "I can't talk about my new battery powered heated grip yet," he told BikeRadar, "but I'd inquire at Fox if you want – or try for some spy photos in Texas." Kabush also posted the following to his Twitter feed later on: "Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions......."
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby am50em » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:01 pm

MarkG wrote:Would love to upgrade to Di2 but I also would like to stay married..


"love" > "like" => new Di2 soon!
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby RonK » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:02 pm

Cmm wrote:
MarkG wrote:Would love to upgrade to Di2 but I also would like to stay married..



Ditto! Tried to spin the advantage of it all bu no luck so am going to end up with defy advanced frame with tiagra instead of the Di2 but am happy with the compromise better than no upgrade lol

Don't dare even mention it in our house, lest she decides she wants a new C59 with EPS.
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby MarkG » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:46 pm

am50em wrote:
MarkG wrote:Would love to upgrade to Di2 but I also would like to stay married..


"love" > "like" => new Di2 soon!


And served with divorce papers quicker than I can change gears on said Di2 haha
Proudly "a hater of academics with helmet cams"
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby dale79 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:47 pm

Philipthelam wrote:
dale79 wrote:please enlighten us DI2 owners what the so called extra complexity and life limits are of the electronics..


:roll:

The extra cost is $2500 plus the time of removing the old groupset and replacing it with di2


Or


The cost of a new part if something like the FD or RD breaks


$2500??? lol

avaliable local for $1499 for a complete groupset and even less over seas..
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby dale79 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:52 pm

Nobody wrote:
dale79 wrote:please enlighten us DI2 owners what the so called extra complexity and life limits are of the electronics..
Motors have seals and bearings which wear out and can have brushes too depending on motor type. Batteries age and hold less capacity in time. Battery needs to be charged and therefore needs a charger. Contact switches (buttons) wear out. Electronic components (although usually fairly long lived) don't last forever either and can suffer from heat and vibration. Water ingress can cause significant problems with corrosion of electronics.

Likely none of this matters to the average Di2 carbon bike owner as they probably will move on long before 5 years have passed.


standard mechinal shifter mechs dont have bearings and seals?
your head light dosent have batterys that require charging?
you normal shifters dont wear out?
riding in the rain and mud dosent effect your mechanial shifting and cables cloggin up?

i dont see anything you have listed there as a draw back.. i charge my battery once every 3 months, i lube my chain once a week, and i NEVER touch the trim features to get perfect shifts it just works..
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby sogood » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:04 pm

dale79 wrote:i charge my battery once every 3 months, i lube my chain once a week, and i NEVER touch the trim features to get perfect shifts it just works..

I sense great confidence in the product and routine. BTW, how long have you owned your electronic gruppo?
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby AndyRevill » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:19 pm

Given the tone that seems to be developing I'll preface this by saying I have nothing against electronics, they're in our cars, fly planes, drive submarines and have taken man to the moon :) I test rode a Di2 version of my new Trek, it was nice, very nice overall and I was left wondering at the end of the test ride if I could talk myself up, without knowing what $$ I would be trying to achieve. However, the "niceness" was the overall ride, the Di2 left me uncertain. It was very smooth but I sort of loved it and hated it at the same time - I needed to keep confirming that the gear change had actually happened. Obviously this would probably wear off after time and you'd just know it had. The big problem for me was the first Di2 version of my bike was $2k more. I could have got another brand with Di2 cheaper and close to what I paid for my poor mans Ultegra but I really liked the ride so didn't even consider it. Of course I can upgrade components down the track but not sure it's high on my list and maybe I'll upgrade bikes and by that time Di2 will be common. For now I'm happy with clunk clunk rather than whzzzz whzzzz :D

A question for people who do have it, what's the limp home option in the event something does go wrong? (I'm assuming there's some provision for this)

cheers, Andy
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby Nobody » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:40 pm

dale79 wrote:standard mechinal shifter mechs dont have bearings and seals?
Don't know if the DT shifters have bearings or seals as such. Probably just bushes of some kind. I suppose the 7 and 8 speed STI has that stuff, but since the 7 speed shifter cost $19, I don't really care.

dale79 wrote:your head light dosent have batterys that require charging?
Yes, because it's too difficult and expensive to have a dyno hub on every bike. But we aren't talking about lights. I don't need to recharge to keep shifting.

dale79 wrote:you normal shifters dont wear out?
The DTs might after 20 years. I've heard Shimano brifters can be good for that long too. Campag are even rebuildable.

dale79 wrote:riding in the rain and mud dosent effect your mechanial shifting and cables cloggin up?
I actually have a wet bike (1 X 7) with full length mudguards and a big front flap. The chain doesn't even get dirty much with each ride. The CX bike (2 X 9) has full length shift and brake cables. So shifting problems aren't a problem often enough for me to worry about it. When it does occur it will be cheap and easy to fix since all the parts are cheap and I know how to fix it.
Last edited by Nobody on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby dale79 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:53 pm

sogood wrote:
dale79 wrote:i charge my battery once every 3 months, i lube my chain once a week, and i NEVER touch the trim features to get perfect shifts it just works..

I sense great confidence in the product and routine. BTW, how long have you owned your electronic gruppo?


near on 12 months now..
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby dale79 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:55 pm

Nobody wrote:
dale79 wrote:standard mechinal shifter mechs dont have bearings and seals?
Don't know if the DT shifters have bearings or seals as such. Probably just bushes of some kind. I suppose the 7 and 8 speed STI has that stuff, but since the 7 speed shifter cost $19, I don't really care.

dale79 wrote:your head light dosent have batterys that require charging?
Yes, but it's too difficult and expensive to have a dyno hub on all my bikes. But we aren't talking about lights. I don't need to recharge to keep shifting.

dale79 wrote:you normal shifters dont wear out?
The DTs might after 20 years. I've heard Shimano brifters can be good for that long too. Campag are even rebuildable.

dale79 wrote:riding in the rain and mud dosent effect your mechanial shifting and cables cloggin up?
I actually have a wet bike (1 X 7) with full length mudguards and a big front flap. The chain doesn't even get dirty much with each ride. The CX bike (2 X 9) has full length shift and brake cables. So shifting problems aren't a problem often enough for me to worry about it. When it does occur it will be cheap and easy to fix since all the parts are cheap and I know how to fix it.


your trying to compare downtube shifters to DI2? my god get with the times..
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Re: Electronic Gears - worth the expense?

Postby Nobody » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:18 pm

dale79 wrote:your trying to compare downtube shifters to DI2? my god get with the times..
You were making the comparisons in this case, I was answering your specific questions. I'll own and do whatever I choose.
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