XTR's & Dura Ace's !!!???!!!

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XTR's & Dura Ace's !!!???!!!

Postby Chuckles1981 » Fri May 16, 2008 3:02 pm

This might be a silly question to some.
But im new to bikes but can anyone explain in layman's term why such the price difference in groupsets and what do one get for there money?
Im looking into buying my a second bike for riding to work and what to know much as i can.
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by BNA » Fri May 16, 2008 3:15 pm

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Postby sandman » Fri May 16, 2008 3:15 pm

From my limited point of view, the Dura Ace stuff is light, possibly more precisely machined and shifts/runs better. It is also softer which is possibly why it runs smoother and possibly need to be replaced more often.

It is supposedly the best of the best as far as Shimano is concerned, the flagship product we all should aspire to 8) 8) 8) 8) As some of the marketing blurb suggests, if you need to shave off 87.9 grams to give you 1/1000th of a second over your closest competitor, Dura-Ace is for you 8) :lol: 8)
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Postby Bnej » Fri May 16, 2008 3:20 pm

Better manufacturing, better materials, better designs.

Higher group sets are lighter, shift more precisely, & generally (but not always) last longer.

It depends what you want if it's worth it.

Best value for money in road bike gear is around the 105/Ultegra level, or SRAM Rival, or Campagnolo Centaur. In Mountain bikes it's around Deore LX/XT, SRAM X.7 or X.9.

With those group sets you get nearly all of the features of the higher end groups, a lot of the weight reductions, but for significantly less money. e.g, X.9 is very similar to last year's X.0, and a lot of changes from XTR are now filtering down into the XT group.

Remember if you have high end gear and break it, it costs more to replace.
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Postby Jean » Fri May 16, 2008 3:21 pm

I remember seeing this rough classification for Shimano road stuff:

Dura-Ace: Top range for elite riders;
Ultegra: Second tier for serious racers;
105: Club racing punters.

This classification system will bring immediate objections from all comers because of cross overs and who can afford what, but it's not a bad starting point.

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Postby sandman » Fri May 16, 2008 3:45 pm

Bnej

I remember Toolong posting that the Dura-Ace is softer and will need replacing more often ?

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Postby Deanj » Fri May 16, 2008 3:46 pm

For a commuter I'd be looking Tiagra/105 level (road)
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Postby sandman » Fri May 16, 2008 3:54 pm

Jean wrote:I remember seeing this rough classification for Shimano road stuff:

Dura-Ace: Top range for elite riders;
Ultegra: Second tier for serious racers;
105: Club racing punters.

This classification system will bring immediate objections from all comers because of cross overs and who can afford what, but it's not a bad starting point.

Cheers


Jean, if you purchase from Probikekit and Chainreaction, its SERIOUSLY more affordable than from LBS.

Example: Dura-Ace Crankset 7800 Hollowtech II

Cellbikes in Sydney $599AUS
Chain Reaction from UK: $292.34

When looking at new bikes I've been told that if I want to upgrade form 105 to Ultegra, its generally around $800-$1000 more, I havent even asked about Dura-Ace. I think my next bike will be a top notch frame with average components and will swap them out as they break with better stuff.
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Postby Bnej » Fri May 16, 2008 4:02 pm

sandman wrote:I remember Toolong posting that the Dura-Ace is softer and will need replacing more often ?


Depends on the part.

There is less material in the cassettes so they might wear faster. But I think the chains last longer, and there's a longer warranty on most parts.

Shifters, deraileurs etc should be more durable.
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Postby Kalgrm » Fri May 16, 2008 4:23 pm

Shimano's modus operandi is to release the new high end stuff as Dura Ace or XTR (road/MTB) and down-grade the superseded XTR to XT and Dura Ace to Ultegra.

That means when you buy XT or Ultegra, you're getting the stuff which was cutting edge last year at a much better price this year. Generally speaking, XT and Ultegra are perfect for the serious rider, while XTR and Dura Ace are there when you want to treat yourself to some "man jewellery". Not many people on this forum can seriously say they NEED XTR or Dura Ace (but I have some anyway. :oops: )

LX is usually two generations behind XTR.

(SRAM does the same thing with X.0 -> X9 -> X7)

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Postby kukamunga » Fri May 16, 2008 4:25 pm

Have heard rave reviews (from a few bike shop proprietors) regarding current model LX gear along the lines of "Why pay more for XT" "As good as XT".....
God save the ABC & SBS.....
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Postby Deanj » Fri May 16, 2008 4:29 pm

Kalgrm wrote: XTR and Dura Ace are there when you want to treat yourself to some "man jewellery". Not many people on this forum can seriously say they NEED XTR or Dura Ace (but I have some anyway. :oops: )
Cheers,
Graeme


:lol: :D
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Postby Kalgrm » Fri May 16, 2008 4:47 pm

kukamunga wrote:Have heard rave reviews (from a few bike shop proprietors) regarding current model LX gear along the lines of "Why pay more for XT" "As good as XT".....

So how did it go when you suggested to your bride-to-be that the cubic zirconia in her engagement ring was "as good as a diamond"? :lol:

I bought my XTR RD as bling. Sometimes shiny things are worth being distracted by! :)

Cheers,
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Postby Jean » Fri May 16, 2008 5:42 pm

sandman wrote:
Jean, if you purchase from Probikekit and Chainreaction, its SERIOUSLY more affordable than from LBS.

Example: Dura-Ace Crankset 7800 Hollowtech II

Cellbikes in Sydney $599AUS
Chain Reaction from UK: $292.34


Agree entirely, my overseas shopping has, in a very brief period of time, become a well formed habit. My concerns are not how to get Dura Ace, however - it's Chorus or nothing. 8) (What doofus decided to make Record black :roll: )
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Postby sandman » Fri May 16, 2008 5:51 pm

Kalgrm wrote: Dura Ace are there when you want to treat yourself to some "man jewellery".

Cheers,
Graeme


I love that term, priceless :-) In fact, I'm looking to buy my next Bike and I want something "unusual". 95% of the bikes just about look the same from 2-3 manufacturers. I want some "Unique Jewelery !" :-)
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Postby toolonglegs » Fri May 16, 2008 7:19 pm

Bnej wrote:
sandman wrote:I remember Toolong posting that the Dura-Ace is softer and will need replacing more often ?


Depends on the part.

There is less material in the cassettes so they might wear faster. But I think the chains last longer, and there's a longer warranty on most parts.

Shifters, deraileurs etc should be more durable.


Did I say that?...maybee.I don't know about softer,but DuraAce should last as long as Ultegra / 105.Maybee the clusters / rings wont last quite as long as they are very lightweight.I think it comes down to care more than anything and riding conditions...also racing hammers equipment a bit harder.
Was it Keith Bontrager that summed it up best.
Lightweight / Strength / Value....Pick two.
Meaning if you want lightweight strong components,then you will pay for it.
If you want cheap strong bits they will be heavy.
And if you want cheap lightweight bits then they wont be strong.

Chose well :lol:
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Postby acw » Fri May 16, 2008 7:28 pm

slightly off topic but is it relatively easy to swap your existing running gear for a new groupset or should you really know what you're doing? I've got Sora and really want something better. I'm reasonably handy with a spanner so could I buy a 105 groupset and swap it out myself do you reckon?
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Postby sandman » Fri May 16, 2008 8:08 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
Bnej wrote:
sandman wrote:I remember Toolong posting that the Dura-Ace is softer and will need replacing more often ?


Depends on the part.

There is less material in the cassettes so they might wear faster. But I think the chains last longer, and there's a longer warranty on most parts.

Shifters, deraileurs etc should be more durable.


Did I say that?...maybee.I don't know about softer,but DuraAce should last as long as Ultegra / 105.Maybee the clusters / rings wont last quite as long as they are very lightweight.I think it comes down to care more than anything and riding conditions...also racing hammers equipment a bit harder.
Was it Keith Bontrager that summed it up best.
Lightweight / Strength / Value....Pick two.
Meaning if you want lightweight strong components,then you will pay for it.
If you want cheap strong bits they will be heavy.
And if you want cheap lightweight bits then they wont be strong.

Chose well :lol:


Toolong, Welcome back !

Hmm, I think I did quote you correctly unless I misinterpreted what you said. Where are you now, how about posting up some piccies so we can appreciate France !

Pete
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Postby sandman » Fri May 16, 2008 8:11 pm

acw wrote:slightly off topic but is it relatively easy to swap your existing running gear for a new groupset or should you really know what you're doing? I've got Sora and really want something better. I'm reasonably handy with a spanner so could I buy a 105 groupset and swap it out myself do you reckon?


Just do your research, it isn't overly hard. Firstly is the frame suiting your needs ? If so continue, if not, sell it and buy a new bike :-)

Never done the shifters but they dont look hard, bit fiddly maybe however there is nothing like googling for an answer. The crankset, quite easy, rear wheel, again quite easy, you simply need to research what tools you need and buy them as part of the overall purchase.

Read Sheldon Browns website, invaluable material..

Cheers..Pete
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Postby acw » Fri May 16, 2008 8:19 pm

OK Sandman, you've convinced me. It sounds pretty tough so best I just go and buy a new bike! :D
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