SRAM 22

Re: SRAM 22

Postby BarryTas » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:39 am

back on topic........ how much is it?
when do we stop for coffee???

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by BNA » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:44 am

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Re: SRAM 22

Postby sumgy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:44 am

Just thinking about this.
What is the point of hydraulic RIM brakes on a road bike?
I dont get it.

As I have said many times before I also dont see the point of hydro discs (or any discs actually) for road either but the hydro rim brakes seem another level of pointlessness.
Magura (and possibly others) had hydro rim brakes in the past and they have gone the way of the Dodo for MTB but now SRAQM has resurrected them for road?? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby lock_ » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:49 am

BarryTas wrote:back on topic........ how much is it?


Cycles Galleria are taking pre-orders, not quite sure how there's only $50 difference between the mech and hydro disc versions. Other price lists I've seen about have placed the hydro levers at nearly double the cost. :?
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby petal665 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:46 am

Late May, very optimistic considering Echelon is getting until most likely late June.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby Xplora » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:44 pm

If you want to stay cables, you have that option for the moment. Hydro is better for all situations. Whether or not it is needed, that's a different question. But you need to try and stop a car without hydraulic assistance a few times. It feels identical to the cable brake system on a bicycle. I would prefer to go 11 speed/electronic/disc/power meter/carbon wheels all at once, so SRAM need to find their Di2 copy ASAP if they want me to go Red for them lol... and SRAM could actually do the whole lot at once, unless they are banking on enough Wiggins dummy spits to cause Shimano and Campy to bin the electronic groups. There is something elegant about getting everything matching. It's VERY interesting how they just sneak in the Quarq as if its a normal option lol
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby petal665 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:15 pm

Looks like it could be here late May after all. Hoping so, it's been delaying our team bikes for long enough. Not that I really want to get off Di2 to ride SRAM. :?
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby jasonc » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:23 pm

petal665 wrote: Not that I really want to get off Di2 to ride SRAM. :?


I'll help you get the Di2 off you bike. I know just where you can leave it :mrgreen:
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby sumgy » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Xplora wrote:If you want to stay cables, you have that option for the moment. Hydro is better for all situations. Whether or not it is needed, that's a different question. But you need to try and stop a car without hydraulic assistance a few times. It feels identical to the cable brake system on a bicycle. I would prefer to go 11 speed/electronic/disc/power meter/carbon wheels all at once, so SRAM need to find their Di2 copy ASAP if they want me to go Red for them lol... and SRAM could actually do the whole lot at once, unless they are banking on enough Wiggins dummy spits to cause Shimano and Campy to bin the electronic groups. There is something elegant about getting everything matching. It's VERY interesting how they just sneak in the Quarq as if its a normal option lol


So how are hydro rim brakes any better than cable rim brakes?
If they are so awesome why has there been basically zero use of the Magura hydro rim brake systems in the 10+ years that they have been around (outside of perhaps trials users)?
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby lock_ » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:51 pm

Xplora wrote:If you want to stay cables, you have that option for the moment. Hydro is better for all situations. Whether or not it is needed, that's a different question. But you need to try and stop a car without hydraulic assistance a few times. It feels identical to the cable brake system on a bicycle. I would prefer to go 11 speed/electronic/disc/power meter/carbon wheels all at once, so SRAM need to find their Di2 copy ASAP if they want me to go Red for them lol... and SRAM could actually do the whole lot at once, unless they are banking on enough Wiggins dummy spits to cause Shimano and Campy to bin the electronic groups. There is something elegant about getting everything matching. It's VERY interesting how they just sneak in the Quarq as if its a normal option lol


Well there's a little more than just hydraulics when it comes to automotive brakes. But you're really not going to need a brake booster on a bicycle.

I'm with you on the 'all in' though. Hoping Shimano does hydro+DI2 sooner rather than later, and comes out with their own PM. Both 9000 and 9070 were announced on the 31st of May 2012... hmmm. I certainly don't need to upgrade ATM, but that combination could be hard to resist.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby Xplora » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:03 pm

Infinitely better modulation, zero adjustment once dialled in. Plain and simple. For the most crucial part of your bike, it does minimise a few issues. Why hasn't it taken over? Conservative attitudes from some, lack of enthusiasm for advancement from Shimano and Campagnolo. SRAM has been quite a bit more progressive in their thinking about a lot of technologies, OEM penetration is the real key to why SRAM doesn't do better.
There is no question hydro is better than cable, BUT would you spend money to switch it over? I still run a compact because when faced with a 200 dollar bill for an extra 8 teeth on the crank, I just couldn't justify it. I didn't move to Campy 11spd because I couldn't justify spending the money when my Ultegra/105 groups are still working. When faced with the question "is this worth spending money on" and "do I want to break up the look of my gear" I think a lot of riders would choose to stay cable. It might only be a 5% improvement in performance, but 25% drop in aesthetics. That is a big deal for most :wink: Hence why I said "all in one solution" before... you can get your entire drivetrain from SRAM now if you wanted hydro brakes, the only thing missing is Di2. Maybe next year?
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:33 pm

sumgy wrote:Just thinking about this.
What is the point of hydraulic RIM brakes on a road bike?
I dont get it.

As I have said many times before I also dont see the point of hydro discs (or any discs actually) for road either but the hydro rim brakes seem another level of pointlessness.
Magura (and possibly others) had hydro rim brakes in the past and they have gone the way of the Dodo for MTB but now SRAQM has resurrected them for road?? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


Hydro rim brakes let you upgrade your levers to hydro now and still be UCI legal, you can then get disc brakes later when they get approved for race use. This assumes that you race, (unless it's with the Vets). Maybe the modulation makes enough of a difference to matter?

Cheers,

Cameron
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby sumgy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:31 am

ironhanglider wrote:
sumgy wrote:Just thinking about this.
What is the point of hydraulic RIM brakes on a road bike?
I dont get it.

As I have said many times before I also dont see the point of hydro discs (or any discs actually) for road either but the hydro rim brakes seem another level of pointlessness.
Magura (and possibly others) had hydro rim brakes in the past and they have gone the way of the Dodo for MTB but now SRAQM has resurrected them for road?? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


Hydro rim brakes let you upgrade your levers to hydro now and still be UCI legal, you can then get disc brakes later when they get approved for race use. This assumes that you race, (unless it's with the Vets). Maybe the modulation makes enough of a difference to matter?

Cheers,

Cameron


Unless the UCI makes a complete backflip on their own rules disc brakes can NEVER be approved for road race use.
They have enough of an issue with potential injury from a broken carbon wheel that they stringently test carbon wheels before approving them for use even in a backyard crit race.
A disc spinning at speed whilst riders are racing shoulder to shoulder and inches from each others wheels is infinitely more risk than being stabbed by a fragment of carbon fibre.

Yes they are approved for MTB and yes they are approved for CX.
But neither of those sports see the speeds that road racing sees or people racing at such close quarters as road racing and crits see.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby petal665 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:44 am

sumgy wrote:A disc spinning at speed whilst riders are racing shoulder to shoulder and inches from each others wheels is infinitely more risk than being stabbed by a fragment of carbon fibre.
How? How is it different from a wheel full of bladed spokes spinning at speed, or chainrings or street signs? A wheel has next to no momentum once the rider weight has been taken off it i.e. in a crash, so I don't see how a disc rotor will cause untold damage in the peleton, any more so that spokes.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby sumgy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:51 am

petal665 wrote:
sumgy wrote:A disc spinning at speed whilst riders are racing shoulder to shoulder and inches from each others wheels is infinitely more risk than being stabbed by a fragment of carbon fibre.
How? How is it different from a wheel full of bladed spokes spinning at speed, or chainrings or street signs? A wheel has next to no momentum once the rider weight has been taken off it i.e. in a crash, so I don't see how a disc rotor will cause untold damage in the peleton, any more so that spokes.


Petal, have you ever seen someone lose a finger to a spoke?
I have seen someone lose a finger to a rotor as a result of an MTB accident.
Do you think a spoke would have done this to a squirrel?

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And I am sorry if you disagree with the UCI's rules, but that is what you are dealing with.
If certain carbon wheels cannot get through their testing then there should be no chance of a stainless steel rotor making it through.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby petal665 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:57 am

I don't want disc on my road bike I'm quite fine with the UCI rules.
I've nearly cut off the tip of my finger between a chainring and a chain, should everyone be using belt drives? :roll:
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby sumgy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:03 am

petal665 wrote:I don't want disc on my road bike I'm quite fine with the UCI rules.
I've nearly cut off the tip of my finger between a chainring and a chain, should everyone be using belt drives? :roll:


Not unless you want to start racing SS, and for your drivetrain to jump horribly . :mrgreen:

Hey, I am not disagreeing with you that the rules may be stupid.
I am just saying that the UCI's rules CANNOT allow the use.
And the day that discs are allowed in crits is the day I will stop racing crits.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby rdp_au » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:28 pm

sumgy wrote:
petal665 wrote:I don't want disc on my road bike I'm quite fine with the UCI rules.
I've nearly cut off the tip of my finger between a chainring and a chain, should everyone be using belt drives? :roll:


Not unless you want to start racing SS, and for your drivetrain to jump horribly . :mrgreen:

Hey, I am not disagreeing with you that the rules may be stupid.
I am just saying that the UCI's rules CANNOT allow the use.
And the day that discs are allowed in crits is the day I will stop racing crits.


Curious. Disc brakes have been in use on motorcycles since the late 1960's. They race in very close company, and at speeds very much higher than bikes. In all that time, I've not been aware of carnage caused by their uncovered disc rotors - some of which are actually made of carbon. There have been some nasty injuries caused by chains and sprockets, though.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby sumgy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:33 pm

rdp_au wrote:
sumgy wrote:
petal665 wrote:I don't want disc on my road bike I'm quite fine with the UCI rules.
I've nearly cut off the tip of my finger between a chainring and a chain, should everyone be using belt drives? :roll:


Not unless you want to start racing SS, and for your drivetrain to jump horribly . :mrgreen:

Hey, I am not disagreeing with you that the rules may be stupid.
I am just saying that the UCI's rules CANNOT allow the use.
And the day that discs are allowed in crits is the day I will stop racing crits.


Curious. Disc brakes have been in use on motorcycles since the late 1960's. They race in very close company, and at speeds very much higher than bikes. In all that time, I've not been aware of carnage caused by their uncovered disc rotors - some of which are actually made of carbon. There have been some nasty injuries caused by chains and sprockets, though.


While somewhat relevant, the rules for motorbike racing are completely different to the rules made by the UCI.
Also I do not really see a lot of motorbike racing where the are racing inches from each others wheels and shoulders in tight formation whilst wearing a thin coating of lycra and a polystyrene shell on their head.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby jasonc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:39 pm

sumgy wrote:Also I do not really see a lot of motorbike racing where the are racing inches from each others wheels and shoulders in tight formation whilst wearing a thin coating of lycra and a polystyrene shell on their head.


because leather will save you from having a limb sheared off by a spinning disk of just about any solid material. :roll:

give. me. discs.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby sumgy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:45 pm

jasonc wrote:
sumgy wrote:Also I do not really see a lot of motorbike racing where the are racing inches from each others wheels and shoulders in tight formation whilst wearing a thin coating of lycra and a polystyrene shell on their head.


because leather will save you from having a limb sheared off by a spinning disk of just about any solid material. :roll:

give. me. discs.


Let me make it simple for you.
Moto rules say they can use discs (plus they would look pretty stupid trying to stop with a rim caliper), UCI rules say they cannot.

End of story.
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby Xplora » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:59 pm

You're right, sumgy, that the racing is different, but the reasoning is wrong. Bicycles pile up MUCH more than motos in mass accidents and the lower speed does mean you're much more likely to get tangled up with the bicycle... if you've seen enough moto crashes, you'll note that if they get by the motorbike with any momentum, such as bouncing, they are SCREWED.

I'm feeling a little less pro-disc. The shearing is guaranteed with a disc, while simply "quite likely" with a spoke... and I think mass pileup is a significant risk for road racing. I would if they could make a shield to reduce the likelihood of chopping?
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby sumgy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:03 pm

Xplora wrote:You're right, sumgy, that the racing is different, but the reasoning is wrong. Bicycles pile up MUCH more than motos in mass accidents and the lower speed does mean you're much more likely to get tangled up with the bicycle.



Yep agreed entirely.
I have actually said exactly that elsewhere on either this or another forum.
I just could not be bothered arguing with Jason. :mrgreen:
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby jasonc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:13 pm

sumgy wrote:
Xplora wrote:You're right, sumgy, that the racing is different, but the reasoning is wrong. Bicycles pile up MUCH more than motos in mass accidents and the lower speed does mean you're much more likely to get tangled up with the bicycle.



Yep agreed entirely.
I have actually said exactly that elsewhere on either this or another forum.
I just could not be bothered arguing with Jason. :mrgreen:


I don't race anyway (just CCR and strava)....
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby MichaelB » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:46 pm

Just worked out that for someone like me ( or others that already have cable discs), that to maintain the 10sp system (if not on SRAM already) will run to about $1,200 :shock:

That's $800 for a pair of the S700 shifters and another $400 for the RD and FD. If you want to go 11sp, add even more.

That ends up being a bit too rich for me.

Be interesting to see what the Shimano system will cost and whether they make it 10sp compatible as well.....
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Re: SRAM 22

Postby Yoda junior » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:51 pm

Haven't you guys seen the huge crash at the Tour of Turkey?

Imagine if everyone had disc brakes and the consequences...

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