Budget Groupsets

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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:37 pm

TDC wrote:Is Microshift Shimano/SRAM or Campag compatible (cassettes/chains etc)?


Cassette, Chain and Crankset you can run anything 10sp, Shimano, Sram or Campy. As long as its 10sp you are fine.

You can mix the components with Shimano ie. Microshift levers and Shimano front and rear mech - or other way around. The cable pull ratio is the same as current generation 10sp Shimano.

For the price, I think most people will go with the full set. I can't see myself seperating them into parts initially since the whole set is such a low cost but down the track we probably will so we can supply crash replacement parts. Its hardly a big deal though, say you crash and mash your rear mech - get a Shimano one from the shop and you are going same-day.

For the brakes you can run anything but Campy.

If I get enough acceptance and can do the volume down the road I'll bring in some colour matching crankset and brakes so we can do a full group. For the moment though its levers + front & rear mech.

I did TRY to launch these in Austrlaia 4 years ago but I just didn't get enough acceptance from the brand snobs. I think the market is ready. The latest version of the product is also better and smoother than ever.

Cycling is more mature and people are starting to realise you don't need to take out a 2nd mortage on your home to buy "race level" components. Looking at it, I can build a really nice light 10sp bike for the price of a low-end sram/shimano groupset but its far lighter, 10sp, looks great and works superior to the entry level gear from the big names.
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by BNA » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:37 pm

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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TMjpn » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:37 pm

Dan wrote:
TMjpn wrote:
It's very refreshing to have true, decent and constructive opinions on the cheaper mech groups on the market here on BNA, opposed to someone bashing on about how much better it is to spend more money.



Are you sure you're talking about this BNA? ;)


Hahaha yep. I guess a "Budget Groupsets" topic doesn't attract the usual crowd :P
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby rjk » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:50 pm

the only thing i dont like about micoshift, gear change cables are external and you cant hide them under the bar tape, only gripe
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:59 pm

rjk wrote:the only thing i dont like about micoshift, gear change cables are external and you cant hide them under the bar tape, only gripe


I like the "look" of the hidden cables but external gives you smoother, lighter shifting and cables can be replaced without having to re-tape the bars so its not all bad.

I know Microshift has looked at going hidden cables but they want to keep the shifting really light and the other really big problem is that sram, shimano and campy all have patents on lever designs. If Microshift want hidden cables they need to design something that works as well (or better) as the current components without infringing on any patents which I understand is pretty tricky.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TDC » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:12 pm

jacks1071 wrote:Cassette, Chain and Crankset you can run anything 10sp, Shimano, Sram or Campy. As long as its 10sp you are fine.


Is the sprocket spacings the same on Shimano/SRAM and campag 10 sp cassettes?

jacks1071 wrote:Cycling is more mature and people are starting to realise you don't need to take out a 2nd mortage on your home to buy "race level" components. Looking at it, I can build a really nice light 10sp bike for the price of a low-end sram/shimano groupset but its far lighter, 10sp, looks great and works superior to the entry level gear from the big names.


He he. marketing departments have convinced us that nothing but but the newest and greatest will do. My main ride has DA 7400 and it works a treat.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:33 pm

TDC wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:Cassette, Chain and Crankset you can run anything 10sp, Shimano, Sram or Campy. As long as its 10sp you are fine.


Is the sprocket spacings the same on Shimano/SRAM and campag 10 sp cassettes?



Spacing between the gears is the same.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby Jesmol » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:46 pm

jacks1071 wrote:
TDC wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:Cassette, Chain and Crankset you can run anything 10sp, Shimano, Sram or Campy. As long as its 10sp you are fine.


Is the sprocket spacings the same on Shimano/SRAM and campag 10 sp cassettes?



Spacing between the gears is the same.

Huh ? the centre to centre sprocket distances are different aren't they ? On Shimano / SRAM 10 speed the pitch is 3.95mm, on Campy the pitch is 4.15mm , put a Campy cassette in a Shimano DT and you're asking for shifting issues, and vice versa.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:05 pm

Jesmol wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:
TDC wrote:Spacing between the gears is the same.

Huh ? the centre to centre sprocket distances are different aren't they ? On Shimano / SRAM 10 speed the pitch is 3.95mm, on Campy the pitch is 4.15mm , put a Campy cassette in a Shimano DT and you're asking for shifting issues, and vice versa.


Small adjustment on the limit screw is required if swapping between the two. You are talking 0.2mm - your limit screws have far more adjustment in them than that.

That being said 99.9% of people are going to run a sram/shimano cassette & chain since they are cheaper which afterall is one of the goals here.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TMjpn » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:19 pm

Well what I think Microshift needs for better adoption are more visible comprehensive, technical reviews and feedback.

People are sceptical to commit money when the details for something are vague. I spent about 5 hours doing online research and even then, best I could get was a few forum posts from guys who didn't elaborate on the 'character' of the groupset. It still left me uninformed, like a basis for purchase was "because some random guy said it was okay". The most informative things I could find were some un-narrated youtube videos of the groupset on a trainer.

I think to really break this train of thought, you will need to visually demonstrate the quality of the group. White group is cool that it comes in many colours, but adversely the finish in pictures makes it look very plastic - same for arsis components. A lot of folk exclusively buy online and thus wont pick up and feel the quality of the product until they own it.

I guess in a nutshell, a group of informative vids showing the group at work in real-world conditions would go a long way to getting the group into people minds. Strap on a go-pro looking at the rear mech and front mech and climb a hill while snapping through the gears, or give a look and feel component review of the shifters and try erode the impression of it being a plastic part. Shimano Sora and Tiagra might look plasticy but they have the advantage of the shimano brand quality behind it and that helps it sell..

Thats the only shortfall of the group as I percieve it - buyer really dont really knwo what they are going to get. It may have been good enough to win in the US under Exergy but seeing that team went broke mid-season...

BTW - I'm not intending to be harsh in anyway - you're right in that it could well be the time people take it up. I think if the group gets a proper review and informs more early adopters then it stands a better chance. I have a fixed budget to meet ($800 for everything) and thats why I didn't go for it - because the weight advantage is seriously tempting.

And also Jacks, thanks for getting in contact with me as well - that was a class move and I appreciated it :)
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TDC » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:23 pm

TMjpn wrote: White group is cool that it comes in many colours,


Now I am confused :) shouldn't that be all the colours at once
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby rjk » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:21 pm

TMjpn wrote:Well what I think Microshift needs for better adoption are more visible comprehensive, technical reviews and feedback.

People are sceptical to commit money when the details for something are vague. I spent about 5 hours doing online research and even then, best I could get was a few forum posts from guys who didn't elaborate on the 'character' of the groupset. It still left me uninformed, like a basis for purchase was "because some random guy said it was okay". The most informative things I could find were some un-narrated youtube videos of the groupset on a trainer.

I think to really break this train of thought, you will need to visually demonstrate the quality of the group. White group is cool that it comes in many colours, but adversely the finish in pictures makes it look very plastic - same for arsis components. A lot of folk exclusively buy online and thus wont pick up and feel the quality of the product until they own it.

I guess in a nutshell, a group of informative vids showing the group at work in real-world conditions would go a long way to getting the group into people minds. Strap on a go-pro looking at the rear mech and front mech and climb a hill while snapping through the gears, or give a look and feel component review of the shifters and try erode the impression of it being a plastic part. Shimano Sora and Tiagra might look plasticy but they have the advantage of the shimano brand quality behind it and that helps it sell..

Thats the only shortfall of the group as I percieve it - buyer really dont really knwo what they are going to get. It may have been good enough to win in the US under Exergy but seeing that team went broke mid-season...

BTW - I'm not intending to be harsh in anyway - you're right in that it could well be the time people take it up. I think if the group gets a proper review and informs more early adopters then it stands a better chance. I have a fixed budget to meet ($800 for everything) and thats why I didn't go for it - because the weight advantage is seriously tempting.

And also Jacks, thanks for getting in contact with me as well - that was a class move and I appreciated it :)


i am baseing mine on an actual inspection of the groupset arsis, one of the guys i do spin classes at a cycling club (blackburn) has it on his no name carbon frame, as far as i can tell it looks perfect and he has no complaints about it either
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby __PG__ » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:50 pm

As a cheap option I'd go on ebay and look for new old stuff (or 2nd hand) 8/9 speed Ultegra/Dura-Ace stuff.

E.g. A 9 speed Ultregra crankset for $80 would IMO be better value than a Claris one.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TMjpn » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:53 pm

That's a start. I've never seen it before. iI've noticed during my shopping that Mshift is being adopted onto new entry-level builds by Felt and Fuji so it's getting out there.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TMjpn » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:00 pm

__PG__ wrote:As a cheap option I'd go on ebay and look for new old stuff (or 2nd hand) 8/9 speed Ultegra/Dura-Ace stuff.

E.g. A 9 speed Ultregra crankset for $80 would IMO be better value than a Claris one.


that's my next aim.. The crank I have bought in my group is compact and the arms are short in length. If I can find a decent 10sp Double SRAM/Shimano crank for around the $100 mark i'll be making a jump later but the compact will do for now.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby Jesmol » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:25 pm

jacks1071 wrote:
Jesmol wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:Huh ? the centre to centre sprocket distances are different aren't they ? On Shimano / SRAM 10 speed the pitch is 3.95mm, on Campy the pitch is 4.15mm , put a Campy cassette in a Shimano DT and you're asking for shifting issues, and vice versa.


Small adjustment on the limit screw is required if swapping between the two. You are talking 0.2mm - your limit screws have far more adjustment in them than that.

That being said 99.9% of people are going to run a sram/shimano cassette & chain since they are cheaper which afterall is one of the goals here.

I know I'm knit picking, but its 0.2mm per pitch, 2mm total if you align on 1 and finish on 10 (ie your indexing will be out 0.2mm per shift cumulating across each shift). The best you could hope for would be 1.0mm but centring on 5 , but even then to be 1mm out on 1 and 10 would be noisy / risky.

Just saying that a campy cassette would not be a wise idea with these unless you ran a shiftmate.

Like you said though, the budget orientated would not be looking at campy cassette's / chains .
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:40 pm

TMjpn wrote:Well what I think Microshift needs for better adoption are more visible comprehensive, technical reviews and feedback.

People are sceptical to commit money when the details for something are vague. I spent about 5 hours doing online research and even then, best I could get was a few forum posts from guys who didn't elaborate on the 'character' of the groupset. It still left me uninformed, like a basis for purchase was "because some random guy said it was okay". The most informative things I could find were some un-narrated youtube videos of the groupset on a trainer.

And also Jacks, thanks for getting in contact with me as well - that was a class move and I appreciated it :)


Sometimes the best way to find out about things are to try them for yourself, let me know when you are ready.

I'll send you a groupo and if you arn't happy after say 4-weeks of riding send it back and I'll refund it for you no questions asked.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:47 pm

Jesmol wrote:I know I'm knit picking, but its 0.2mm per pitch, 2mm total if you align on 1 and finish on 10 (ie your indexing will be out 0.2mm per shift cumulating across each shift). The best you could hope for would be 1.0mm but centring on 5 , but even then to be 1mm out on 1 and 10 would be noisy / risky.

Just saying that a campy cassette would not be a wise idea with these unless you ran a shiftmate.

Like you said though, the budget orientated would not be looking at campy cassette's / chains .


Agreed, you're better off with a Sram or Shimano cassette. If you had to, you can make a campy cassette work although the shiftmate maybe required to get it "perfect". Realistically I don't think anyone is going go run a Campy cassette with a Microshift groupset, completely different market.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby takai » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:27 pm

I think the differentiating feature for Microshift will be the 10sp gear. I know when building a commuter for my wife to ride i was goign to go with Tiagra over Sora simply because it was 10sp and therefore compatible with all of my spares for my road bike. Ended up going second hand 105 shifters with Tiagra crank as i picked it all up second hand with the frame for a good price from a mate.

Microshift being 10sp will make those sort of second bike or partner bike transitions easier.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:43 pm

takai wrote:I think the differentiating feature for Microshift will be the 10sp gear. I know when building a commuter for my wife to ride i was goign to go with Tiagra over Sora simply because it was 10sp and therefore compatible with all of my spares for my road bike. Ended up going second hand 105 shifters with Tiagra crank as i picked it all up second hand with the frame for a good price from a mate.

Microshift being 10sp will make those sort of second bike or partner bike transitions easier.


That and its light as Dura-ace for the price of Sora :-)
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby antipodean » Wed May 01, 2013 12:29 pm

TMjpn wrote:
I spent about 5 hours doing online research and even then, best I could get was a few forum posts from guys who didn't elaborate on the 'character' of the groupset.



How did you miss this?
http://road.cc/content/review/14420-mic ... d-groupset
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TMjpn » Wed May 01, 2013 2:41 pm

antipodean wrote:
TMjpn wrote:
I spent about 5 hours doing online research and even then, best I could get was a few forum posts from guys who didn't elaborate on the 'character' of the groupset.



How did you miss this?
http://road.cc/content/review/14420-mic ... d-groupset


No, I read that too. It is hands down the best written review for the group.

Budget took over my choice in the end. Got a group for $200, where as with MShift and cranks/chain/cassette would have been looking at around $450+ all told, so thats what ultimately made my decision - after all my ride to work is no more than 10kms a day. Had to take a long, hard look at the savings account and decide how much damage I wanted to do, but ultimately realised I didn't need a light group, just a sturdy cheap one.

Should I upgrade in future I know where to go - but if want to lighten my budget ride it'll cost me more than I want and the reality is the bike wont ever be as light as my other ride.. so I have to settle.
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TDC » Wed May 01, 2013 3:32 pm

TMjpn wrote:Budget took over my choice in the end. Got a group for $200, where as with MShift and cranks/chain/cassette would have been looking at around $450+ all told, so thats what ultimately made my decision - after all my ride to work is no more than 10kms a day. Had to take a long, hard look at the savings account and decide how much damage I wanted to do, but ultimately realised I didn't need a light group, just a sturdy cheap one.


Reality dictating purchases!!?? You're not from around these parts stranger?
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TMjpn » Wed May 01, 2013 4:16 pm

TDC wrote:Reality dictating purchases!!?? You're not from around these parts stranger?


:D No - I get carried away with my hobbies like any sane man.. this is my 3rd road bike in 2 years :oops:

If i really got into it.. I'd have built up something like a dogma for the trip to work.. before I then realised it was too precious to ride to work.. so i'd build up another ride to do the job.. feel that same way, and the Vicious cycle continues :shock:

Somehow, against the odds. Logic came through in the end. I've already lied to the minister of finance about how much I've spent on this project.. and she's an auditing accountant! :twisted:
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby Dan » Wed May 01, 2013 6:10 pm

TMjpn wrote:...and the viscous cycle continues...


too much heavy grade oil in the BB? ;)
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Re: Budget Groupsets

Postby TMjpn » Wed May 01, 2013 6:12 pm

Dan wrote:
TMjpn wrote:...and the viscous cycle continues...


too much heavy grade oil in the BB? ;)


:mrgreen:

oops.. might want a spell check :oops:
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