Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

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Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:05 pm

Hi all

I'm in the process of scoping out my next bike, which will be very similar to my current bike (2010 Kona Honky Inc) albeit with an IGH, probably and Alfine 11 Di2 setup.

I'm looking for:
- ti or steel frame
- drop bars with "STI" shifters
- disc brakes
- mudguard support
- (as mentioned) Alfine 11 Di2 (and therefore a 135mm or 132.5mm rear frame spacing)
- carbon fork (not mandatory, but preferable)
- total price (much) less than an Americano Rohloff

The closest I can find to my requirements are
a) Genesis Day One Alfine 11 and
b) Norco Indie Drop Alfine.

Admittedly, both are VERY close to what I'm looking for, but neither really float my boat. The Day One is closest to the aesthetic I'm looking for - I really wish it had the new Shimano over the Versa brifters (which don't have the best reviews). Not sure why I don't like the Norco - I guess its got a real mass-market feel to it.

I'm picky. I think I just want to build a bike from the frame up, and get every component just so.

So, another option I'm looking to take is to build up a single-speed frame to do the job.

Any suggestions?

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by BNA » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:32 pm

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby barefoot » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:32 pm

On-One [used to?] do an Alfine / Versa version of their Pompetamine.

I don't know what the Day One costs, but IIRC the On-One was well cheaper than the CAD price of the Norco you listed.
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:55 pm

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:05 am

barefoot wrote:On-One [used to?] do an Alfine / Versa version of their Pompetamine.

I don't know what the Day One costs, but IIRC the On-One was well cheaper than the CAD price of the Norco you listed.


Ahh yes.

The Pompetamine frame is an option, but the review by road.cc of the Alfine 11 complete bike is terrible! They don't pinpoint why.

I'll see if I can find the link ...

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:06 am

Nobody wrote:Specialized AWOL


Looks good! Available in frame only - I'll look into it.

Good find - thanks

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby MattyK » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:37 am

My pick would be a Genesis Day One, and wait til next year when the hydro Di2 shifters come out. 8)
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby barefoot » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:48 am

Espresso_ wrote:
barefoot wrote:On-One [used to?] do an Alfine / Versa version of their Pompetamine.

I don't know what the Day One costs, but IIRC the On-One was well cheaper than the CAD price of the Norco you listed.


Ahh yes.

The Pompetamine frame is an option, but the review by road.cc of the Alfine 11 complete bike is terrible! They don't pinpoint why.

I'll see if I can find the link ...


Ah yes, that would be this one:
http://road.cc/content/review/48378-one ... e-versa-11

Seems most of their complaints are inherent to disc-braked hub-geared bikes, or specific to the robust and durable (ie heavy) build of their test rig.

Fair enough. My (rim-braked single-speed full-mudguarded) Pompino is a bastard to fix a rear flat on too, so adding the complication of a disc brake and gear hub isn't going to improve anything there. And it's certainly heavy, but a ~2.5kg frameset is only a part of the weight of a ~12.5kg bike. A slightly lighter frame with the same bits hanging off it would only be slightly lighter.

Anyway, just browsing On-One's site, they don't currently have a pre-mixed Pomp-Alfine-Versa build for sale. But they have all the bits.

Another option would be to copy the geometry of whichever frame you prefer and get XACD or similar to build you one out of titanium.... a $1k XACD frame is a bit of a step up from a $200 Pompetamine frame, but it's an exciting project :D

tim
somewhat biased toward On-One and XACD...
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby MattyK » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:52 am

barefoot wrote:
Espresso_ wrote:My (rim-braked single-speed full-mudguarded) Pompino is a bastard to fix a rear flat on too, so adding the complication of a disc brake and gear hub isn't going to improve anything there.

Forward facing dropouts instead of track slots would fix that. Strike one against my Day One dream...

Hub gear adds no complication at all to wheel removal, you can do get the cable off with no tools.

<edit> I will concede that IGH plus rear disc brake can get more complicated; it really needs the brake located off the dropout; a movable brake mount or vertical dropouts and another tensioner mechanism (add on or eccentric BB).

The Pompetamine review seems to conclude that the match of parts wasn't good; the hub and shifters were well rated, but not suited to that frame geometry with its sharp handling and lack of clearances.
Last edited by MattyK on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Alistair » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:02 am

I have a new large pompetamine frame looking for a good home. It was way to small for me so never turned a wheel. I'm trying to clear out some surplus bits so will let the frame, fork and headset go for $150 if you - or anybody else - is interesed.

It built up really nicely and was lighter than I expected, but just too small. That review isn't particularly positive, but I those complaints would apply to most beardy commuter/tourer style bikes.
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Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:12 am

MattyK wrote:
<edit> I will concede that IGH plus rear disc brake can get more complicated; it really needs the brake located off the dropout; a movable brake mount or vertical dropouts and another tensioner mechanism (add on or eccentric BB).


Having never owned an IGH bike, I hadn't actually considered this issue at all until now. A chain tensioner doesn't appeal (messes with the aesthetics, too) but mudguards are a definite requirement for me. Maybe the clip on style mudguards are the way to go?

How much of an issue is this in practice anyway? I ride almost every day and I've had two flats in the last 2 years (one rear) ...

E
Last edited by Espresso_ on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby barefoot » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:55 am

Espresso_ wrote:How much of an issue is this in practice anyway? I ride almost very day and I've had two flats in the last 2 years (one rear) ...

Argh, now you've done it. Puncture fairies won't let that one go unpunished! :lol:

It's not that big a deal really. Just something to be mindful of.

I have close-fitting full-length guards on my singlespeed (SKS Chromoplastics that are supposed to fit 26" wheels, bought for my Long Haul Trucker but they fit the 700c Pompino better). The rear one can make it tricky to pull the wheel out the back of the track ends. It's a whole lot easier if I just undo the guard's rear mounting bolt (allen key into a M4 capscrew each side at the dropout). Tiny bit fiddlier than if the guard wasn't there, but worth it IMO. As you say, flats don't happen all that often.

I did get sick of flats on my cargo bike, which has an IGH, drum brake, mudguard, chainguard, and most often, a small child sitting in the cargo box needing supervision and entertainment. That's a flat you really don't want to be fixing in the field. Solved with super-ultra-heavy thornproof slime tubes. Self-healing. I've had one actual flat since then, which healed itself by the time I got a pump on to it. Not something you'd want to do to a light commuter bike though... they're horribly draggy things to ride on. Noticeable even on a cargo bike.
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby MattyK » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:54 am

Well, I've got IGH, mudguards, (rim brakes), daily commuter, no punctures in the last 3 years (there I said it, smite me oh puncture fairies). Schwalbe Marathons (now Marathon Supremes). So not a big deal depending on where you live/ride. I had 3 punctures in 12 months commuting in Auckland though, luckily worked walking distance to the bike shop.

My bike runs forward dropouts so I've made sure the front of the mudguard has clearance, but the back is quite tight to the tyre.

Vertical dropouts and an EBB would be the best solution for disc brakes and mudguards.
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Calvin27 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:56 am

Espresso_ wrote:
MattyK wrote:
<edit> I will concede that IGH plus rear disc brake can get more complicated; it really needs the brake located off the dropout; a movable brake mount or vertical dropouts and another tensioner mechanism (add on or eccentric BB).


Having never owned an IGH bike, I hadn't actually considered this issue at all until now. A chain tensioner doesn't appeal (messes with the aesthetics, too) but mudguards are a definite requirement for me. Maybe the clip on style mudguards are the way to go?

How much of an issue is this in practice anyway? I ride almost every day and I've had two flats in the last 2 years (one rear) ...

E


The focus alfine range have this thread thing to adjust the whole rear dropout so no need for EBB. Seems to work well and eliminates the creaking EBB problem. The mud guards look like they bolt onto the fixed part of the frame.

Image

On another note - you HAVE to do a belt drive! That would be my ultimate bike if you went titanium.

Also have you considered hydro mec brakes? (cable pulled and hydro actualted at the caliper)
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Uncle Just » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:23 pm

Go custom and you can design anything to incorporate your wish list.

Here's a steel frame with an IGH/guards/racks/drop bars/dynamo lighting etc ... http://www.gelliecustombikeframes.com.a ... -commuter/
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:50 pm

Calvin27 wrote:
On another note - you HAVE to do a belt drive! That would be my ultimate bike if you went titanium.

Also have you considered hydro mec brakes? (cable pulled and hydro actualted at the caliper)


Don't tempt me with that belt drive stuff. Finding a frame that splits on top of my other requirements looks fanciful / even more expensive. So yeah, I've thought about it - for example, something like this Spot.

In terms of brakes, I'm plenty happy with my BB7s, and hadn't considered anything beyond that. Now that I see the new range of road hydraulic brakes, I'm looking into that also. But that's another thread....

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Calvin27 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:08 pm

Yeah split frames are impossible to find. You could probably buy a flat bar belt drive and covert to alfine 11 Di2 with drops but the geometry would be screwed and it will likely be alloy frame. Pity because the belt drive and alfine were made for each other :P.
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby find_bruce » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:39 pm

Any Steel or TI frame could be fitted with sliding drop-outs from Paragon Machine Works - TI US$112.77 or stainless $96. Add another US$25 for a belt drive and you are good to go. It is very easy spending other peoples money :D
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Nobody » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:36 pm

Calvin27 wrote:Yeah split frames are impossible to find...
Looks like someone hasn't been reading all the posts.
road.cc wrote:It comes with custom cast/forged rocker dropouts to run a belt drivetrain (although it actually comes with a standard chain setup).

Specialized AWOL
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Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:13 am

The AWOL is an interesting option; albeit one that appears hard to find as a frame set right now - availability may improve over time.

It ticks many (all?) of my boxes, but man it looks ugly. That head tube! Aside from the looks, I'm assuming the head tube height gives it more of a touring geometry than I'm looking for.

I'm still keeping a close eye on it, though, along with the new Surly Straggler (also ugly - what's with that purple sparkle paint job?).

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Nobody » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:16 am

:arrow:
Last edited by Nobody on Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby barefoot » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:03 am

Espresso_ wrote:It ticks many (all?) of my boxes, but man it looks ugly. That head tube! Aside from the looks, I'm assuming the head tube height gives it more of a touring geometry than I'm looking for.


It does look unusual, but IMO it would look far worse with a short head tube, towering stack of spacers AND riser stem required to get the bars up that high.

But it all depends how high you want your bars. They are very high bars... it looks like the sort of thing I would ride :oops: (I have short arms - if I don't have high bars, my arms aren't long enough to reach them :lol: ). Few people would have them that hight - few would use high-rise stem with all that lovely head tube giving them bar height... so I'm surprised they show it like that.

As shown in the road.cc article:
Image

With a quick and very dirty photochop, just flipping the stem and bringing the bars down to the new clamp position:
Image

Yeah, I gots the mad photochopping skillz 8)

It's still a fairly high bar position relative to the saddle, but not ridiculously so. There's probably a few spacers in that stack, so slamming the stem could bring it down lower. A steeper stem even more so. Depends how you fit a bike.

If you comfortably fit a conventional road bike with a slammed 130mm stem, and want something similar... yeah, probably not for you. If you usually use a stack of spacers or a riser stem, this could be your chance to have a "normal" looking bike with a drop stem.

Long head tubes are good for headset bearing loads, too. Wide-spaced bearings are happy bearings.

tim
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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby barefoot » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:08 am

barefoot wrote:
Espresso_ wrote:They are very high bars... it looks like the sort of thing I would ride :oops: (I have short arms - if I don't have high bars, my arms aren't long enough to reach them :lol: ).
...
With a quick and very dirty photochop, just flipping the stem and bringing the bars down to the new clamp position:
Image


Actually, the photochop really does look disturbingly like my own bike:
Image

Maybe theirs is a little bit longer in the top tube. At least, I hope it is, or their market will be severely limited to misproportioned freaks like me :lol:

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:06 pm

barefoot wrote:But it all depends how high you want your bars. They are very high bars... it looks like the sort of thing I would ride :oops: (I have short arms - if I don't have high bars, my arms aren't long enough to reach them :lol: ). Few people would have them that hight - few would use high-rise stem with all that lovely head tube giving them bar height... so I'm surprised they show it like that.


That's quite interesting - I'd probably need to go with a setup like your photoshopped version. I've shorter legs and longer torso/arms. My current bike fits me pretty well. This pic is a little outdated, but its basically my current setup:

Image

Bars are approximately at seat height, maybe a very small amount below - this photo makes it looks like my saddle is higher than it is. The sloping top tube also makes the saddle post look longer/higher than it actually is, and works well to give me workable stand-over height given short legs - another plus for the AWOL over the cross bikes with a more horizontal top tube.

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:40 pm

The more I read about the Specialized AWOL, the more I'm not minding that head tube.

This is some seriously good marketing.

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Re: Which frame for Alfine 11 Road Bike?

Postby Espresso_ » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:28 pm

The Milk RDA is also looking like a viable option.

This drop-bar Alfine 11 build is looking pretty close to what I'm after, right down to the hub lights...

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