Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

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Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby redgecko » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:33 pm

I’m collecting the parts for a custom wheelset and want some advice on rim choice.
I already have the hubs – Dura-ace 9000 (24 hole front and 28 hole rear) and plan on using CX-ray spokes with brass nipples.
I want minimum 23mm wide rims to suit the tires I’ll be using which are 32mm wide Grand Bois Extra Leger’s. These aren’t your typical 32mm tire weighing in at 232 grams or about the same as a 25mm Conti GP4000S.
I like the HED Belgiums and have been waiting for the new Belgium plus (25mm wide) rims to be released but now they’re available there’s are a couple of issues.
Firstly, the price at $150 US per rim (plus postage to Aus) and secondly they are only being produced in 28 and 32 hole drillings, so I can’t use with my 24 hole front hub.
So my choices are down to:
1) Standard HED Belgiums
2) A mix of standard Belgium front and Belgium plus rear – not sure what the effect of different width rims front and rear would be if any.
3) Pacenti SL23 – 24mm wide and seem to be good quality.
4) H Plus Son Archetypes – don’t really like the black brake track.
5) Velocity A23 – like the idea of the offset rear rim with the 11-speed hub and the price but some reports of patchy quality.
By the way, I’m 63kg and the wheels will be for my titanium Salsa La Cruz for general road riding and commuting use.
Also, any recommendations for who to get the wheels built by in Brisbane. Thanks.
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by BNA » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:46 pm

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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Pottsy » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:46 pm

I have a set of Archetypes but I'm yet to build them up. I will be using DA 9000 hubs also.
Out of the rims you are looking at, the two i find most interesting are the Pacenti SL23 & the H Plus Son Archtype.

I plan on setting my Archetypes up tubeless, using these tyres
http://www.specialized.com/au/en-au/ftb ... d-tubeless

BTW I got my rims in black, it will be interesting to see how the brake track wears.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Crawf » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:50 pm

All good choices, personally I'd say the Pacenti would be the strongest rim given the specs.
And although more expensive, the Archetype is a better quality rim in hand over the A23 which is the cheapest and easiest to source.
The HED's, well they are notoriously hard to get hold of and $$$.
I'd go the Pacenti or Archetype, I do have a set of A23's and they have been faultless, but the formentioned two are just a bit classier and deserve DA hubs. 24/28h is a wise choice too even given your light weight.
Post up pics when they're done! :)
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby cerb » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:52 pm

I have the A23's on Ultegra hubs and they have been faultless, however, I think DA hubs would be more fitting on a nicer rim!
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby biker jk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:19 pm

The Pacenti SL23 is likely your best choice. At your weight you don't need 24f, 28r, spokes. These wider rims are very stiff and you could have done 20f, 24r, with no problems. I built a budget wide rim wheelset (Kinlin XC-279) with Sapim CX-Rays (20f, 24r) which came in under 1500 grams and it's as solid as a rock.

It's true that 11-speed Dura-Ace hub has seen the tension differential fall to around 45% from over 50% but this won't present any problems building with these wider stiff rims since you could go to 125-130kgf spoke tension on the drive side and so achieve adequate non-drive side spoke tension.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby wqlava1 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:26 pm

I've not seen the Pacenti but they seem to have good write ups. I've built Archetypes for myself and for my son's mate and the rims are simply a class above any DT Swiss, Mavic, Velocity and other rims I've used before. Not only are they better milled and don't have a bump where they were welded, H Plus Son told me in an email that its OK to have up to 130kg tension in the spokes, 10kg more than any other, which gives a stiffer wheel. They trued up easily to +/- 2 thou laterally and not much more radially, with the last wheel I built.

Nominal 25mm Conti GP GT tyres measured an average 26.4mm wide on the Archetype rims.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Mozzar » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:15 pm

I wouldn't recomend a 24 hole for the front as there are not enough spokes and therefore you need a heaver rim to support less spokes. the minimum number of spokes recomend by the best wheel builders for a front wheel is 28 spokes. The less spokes in a wheen makes the rim heaver so it can support the rider where there is no spoke. some people say that less spokes is lighter but i have seen and felt a 1300gram sheel set with 32 spokes front and rear, they can still support a 120kg rider. Unlike mavic that have a rider limit of 70kg for their lightest wheel set (not as light as i've seen and felt)
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Crawf » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:48 pm

24 vs 28, we're really only talking about roughly 32g difference.
At his weight he's very safe on 24h up front, even with DT Rev's.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby biker jk » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:47 pm

Mozzar wrote:I wouldn't recomend a 24 hole for the front as there are not enough spokes and therefore you need a heaver rim to support less spokes. the minimum number of spokes recomend by the best wheel builders for a front wheel is 28 spokes. The less spokes in a wheen makes the rim heaver so it can support the rider where there is no spoke. some people say that less spokes is lighter but i have seen and felt a 1300gram sheel set with 32 spokes front and rear, they can still support a 120kg rider. Unlike mavic that have a rider limit of 70kg for their lightest wheel set (not as light as i've seen and felt)


These wider rims are not lightweights they weigh 450-480 grams and so you can use fewer spokes. For a 63kg rider there is no need for 28 spokes on the front wheel with these wider rims and even 20 would be fine. I weigh 65kg and have a 20f, 24r set with wider rims and it's rock solid. Spoke tension is 130kgf on the rear drive side. A 1300g wheelset requiring 32 spokes would likely mean a sub-400g rim which will likely flex like crazy with a 120kg rider.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby wqlava1 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:09 pm

biker jk wrote:These wider rims are not lightweights they weigh 450-480 grams and so you can use fewer spokes. For a 63kg rider there is no need for 28 spokes on the front wheel with these wider rims and even 20 would be fine. I weigh 65kg and have a 20f, 24r set with wider rims and it's rock solid. Spoke tension is 130kgf on the rear drive side.

Note that only H Plus Son specifies 130kgf for spokes. Sun and DT Swiss are mostly 120kgf, some Mavics are as low as 90kgf. You need to stay inside these manufacturer limits - they are grounded in sensible experience and when I've exceeded each of them out of interest by just another 20kgf (except the Archetype), wheels have started to taco. Velocity Deep Vees will go to 130 and stay reasonably true, but 150 sees them bend too.

biker jk wrote:A 1300g wheelset requiring 32 spokes would likely mean a sub-400g rim which will likely flex like crazy with a 120kg rider.

+1. I have had to rebuild too much for my 110kg well-muscled son, and for instance the older Campag Omegas didn't stay true long at all under him.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby redsonic » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:08 pm

I had a set of velocity A23s made up, using the off centre rim on the rear. Was a little disappointed with the Velocities as the join on one of them was quite stepped.
I had the wheels made by Jimmy at Bikeology in Taringa - very pleased with his work.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Duck! » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:14 pm

I'm not all that impressed with Velocity. They used to be quite reasonable, but in the last few years quality control has gone through the floor. The pinned rim joints are often poorly aligned, resulting in brake grab at that spot every time until the rim wears in, at which point you'll wind up with a thin spot 'cos one side of the join needs to wear down that bit more. I've also literally blown apart several rims on my HPV, and these are built with drum brake hubs, so there's no rim wear from braking! :shock:
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby senator52 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:29 am

FYI I haven't received the wheels yet, but I ordered the following wheelset, I weight about 85kg most of the time.

Rims: Pacenti SL23
Hubs: Alchemy ELF and ORC-UL
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray 24F and 28R

The rims came well recommended.
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Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Dan » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:52 am

Solid enough choice. I'd have talked to velo13 of xlr8 wheels though - best value builds available.

Duck! wrote:I'm not all that impressed with Velocity. They used to be quite reasonable, but in the last few years quality control has gone through the floor. The pinned rim joints are often poorly aligned, resulting in brake grab at that spot every time until the rim wears in, at which point you'll wind up with a thin spot 'cos one side of the join needs to wear down that bit more. I've also literally blown apart several rims on my HPV, and these are built with drum brake hubs, so there's no rim wear from braking! :shock:


I've heard this too Duck, as well as the material used in the A23s being of a much softer grade than that of the equivalent Archetype, TB14, et al.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Crawf » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:46 am

senator52 wrote:FYI I haven't received the wheels yet, but I ordered the following wheelset, I weight about 85kg most of the time.

Rims: Pacenti SL23
Hubs: Alchemy ELF and ORC-UL
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray 24F and 28R

The rims came well recommended.


Sweet build there!

I'm just about to build up the following in spares I had lying around.
-Archetypes Black 28/32
-Silver CXRays
-Silver Alchemy ORC rear
-Silver BHS wide front
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Crawf » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:47 am

Dan wrote:Solid enough choice. I'd have talked to velo13 of xlr8 wheels though - best value builds available.

Duck! wrote:I'm not all that impressed with Velocity. They used to be quite reasonable, but in the last few years quality control has gone through the floor. The pinned rim joints are often poorly aligned, resulting in brake grab at that spot every time until the rim wears in, at which point you'll wind up with a thin spot 'cos one side of the join needs to wear down that bit more. I've also literally blown apart several rims on my HPV, and these are built with drum brake hubs, so there's no rim wear from braking! :shock:


I've heard this too Duck, as well as the material used in the A23s being of a much softer grade than that of the equivalent Archetype, TB14, et al.


Moving production to the US may have something to do with that?
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Duck! » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:14 am

No, they were turning to poo before that.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby DJIntegr8 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:39 pm

I've built up a few rims for myself now, all 32 spoke:

1. A23 on dynamo hub front/105 rear - A little bit of offset in the joint, and overall braking is poor even with Koolstop Salmons. Otherwise strong build.

2. TB14 on Campy Record - excellent polished finish and joint, nice braking power. Easy to build with eyelets, though difficult to get even tension and had issues with spokes coming loose. A little heavy.

3. Archetype on dynamo hub front/XT rear - the best of the 3 as far as weight, even spoke tension and finish goes. Disc braked so not sure on that side.

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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby jaseyjase » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:29 pm

sell 24h da hub, buy 28. go hed.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Le Mong » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:42 pm

senator52 wrote:FYI I haven't received the wheels yet, but I ordered the following wheelset, I weight about 85kg most of the time.

Rims: Pacenti SL23
Hubs: Alchemy ELF and ORC-UL
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray 24F and 28R

The rims came well recommended.


Where did you order these from?
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Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:55 pm

Duck! wrote:No, they were turning to poo before that.


They've have always been soft IMO. Dinged many on my MTB's over the years. Never a problem with Mavic's, I just wish they would make an Open Pro or CXP in a wider width though.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Duck! » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:18 pm

Crawf wrote:
Dan wrote:Solid enough choice. I'd have talked to velo13 of xlr8 wheels though - best value builds available.

Duck! wrote:I'm not all that impressed with Velocity. They used to be quite reasonable, but in the last few years quality control has gone through the floor. The pinned rim joints are often poorly aligned, resulting in brake grab at that spot every time until the rim wears in, at which point you'll wind up with a thin spot 'cos one side of the join needs to wear down that bit more. I've also literally blown apart several rims on my HPV, and these are built with drum brake hubs, so there's no rim wear from braking! :shock:


I've heard this too Duck, as well as the material used in the A23s being of a much softer grade than that of the equivalent Archetype, TB14, et al.


Moving production to the US may have something to do with that?

Here's one of about six Velocity Aeroheats that I've blown up:

Image

The last one also began to blow its sidewalls off.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Velo13 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:14 pm

Crawf wrote:
Dan wrote:Solid enough choice. I'd have talked to velo13 of xlr8 wheels though - best value builds available.

Duck! wrote:I'm not all that impressed with Velocity. They used to be quite reasonable, but in the last few years quality control has gone through the floor. The pinned rim joints are often poorly aligned, resulting in brake grab at that spot every time until the rim wears in, at which point you'll wind up with a thin spot 'cos one side of the join needs to wear down that bit more. I've also literally blown apart several rims on my HPV, and these are built with drum brake hubs, so there's no rim wear from braking! :shock:


I've heard this too Duck, as well as the material used in the A23s being of a much softer grade than that of the equivalent Archetype, TB14, et al.


Moving production to the US may have something to do with that?


I would agree that the A23 is a softer grade of Alloy than the Hplusson rims. They certainly feel softer when I tension and then stress relieve them. That said, they are lighter, and they do tubeless quite easily (almost any CX tyre at low pressures, and Hutchison road tubeless for road use).

I believe that the Hplusson Archetype is the best aftermarket road clincher rim out there. The finish is the best, they are extremely stiff (radially and laterally) and build into a very strong wheel. Low spoke counts can be built with confidence. The TB14 works very well for the retro crowd, and can only assume it uses the same alloy. It does not feel quite as stiff to build as the Archetype.

The Pacenti SL23 rims lie somewhere in the middle - not as nicely finished as the Hplusson, but better (IMHO) than Velocity. Not as stiff as an Archetype, but stiffer than an A23. They seem to be the "in thing" at the moment - I suspect due to the claim they are 24mm wide (rather than 23mm of the A23 and Archetype) and the weight being better than an Archetype. They also claim to be "tubeless ready" but I have not tried that on them.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby Velo13 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:31 pm

redgecko wrote:I already have the hubs – Dura-ace 9000 (24 hole front and 28 hole rear) and plan on using CX-ray spokes with brass nipples.


At 63kg, a 28/24 combination will be a wise choice. If it is built well, and you choose the right rim, you won't need more spokes on either wheel.

redgecko wrote:1) Standard HED Belgiums
2) A mix of standard Belgium front and Belgium plus rear – not sure what the effect of different width rims front and rear would be if any.
3) Pacenti SL23 – 24mm wide and seem to be good quality.
4) H Plus Son Archetypes – don’t really like the black brake track.
5) Velocity A23 – like the idea of the offset rear rim with the 11-speed hub and the price but some reports of patchy quality.


1. Overpriced and hard to source.
2. Why would you mix and match?
3. Agreed.
4. The black brake track turns into a silver brake track pretty quickly. They are anodised after machining and give you more meat in the brake track (= greater stiffness and a longer lasting rim).
5. The A23 offset drilling does assist a little with keeping non drive side spoke tensions higher to ensure that the nipples don't unwind when the rim flexes, but this is somewhat countered by the A23 being more flexible than options 4 and 5 anyway.
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Re: Wide Rim choice for new custom wheel build.

Postby ironhanglider » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:01 pm

Duck! wrote:I'm not all that impressed with Velocity. They used to be quite reasonable, but in the last few years quality control has gone through the floor. The pinned rim joints are often poorly aligned, resulting in brake grab at that spot every time until the rim wears in, at which point you'll wind up with a thin spot 'cos one side of the join needs to wear down that bit more. I've also literally blown apart several rims on my HPV, and these are built with drum brake hubs, so there's no rim wear from braking! :shock:

Here's one of about six Velocity Aeroheats that I've blown up:

Image

The last one also began to blow its sidewalls off.


:!:

Perhaps you should use less than 400psi? :wink:

I seen a few Dyads and Aeroheats split apart (single crack down the centre joining the dots) on tandems. Likely contributed to by wide tyres and high pressures.

My most recent rims were for race wheels for the heavy tandem. A special order of 40 hole rims just for me from Newson Sportec

They do make wide rims, and have a selection of colours. Mine were a bit out of the ordinary, so I'd expect that a couple of rims in a standard drilling would be pretty straightforward. BTW the pictures are not to scale but the measurements are close.

Cheers,

Cameron
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