My MTB Short list

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My MTB Short list

Postby ArthurM » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:33 am

Hi all,

I've been off the bike for some years but in one of those 'light bulb moments' I thought why not get a bike and relive the outdoors again after years of indoor work and travel. I'm certainly not as fit as I was in my 20's!! So after a couple of weeks researching and visiting a few LBSs I have whittled my choice down to four.

First let me say that I feel a bit awkward posting one of these same old boring "which bike should I buy" threads. No matter what hobby it is, forums are full of these questions, so I hope you go easy on me until I get my bearings and learn more about this wonderful pastime. I'm looking at the lower end of the MTB range - something that I can use on the road/bike tracks (as I leave my home) then end up at some light fire trails, bush tracks etc. Nothing too serious when it comes to MTB trails at this stage. A bike I can hook up to the carrier, head into country Vic. and enjoy some State Parks and bushland!

1. Giant Boulder 1
2. GT Aggressor 1.0
3. GT Avalanche 3.0 Hydro
4. Avanti Montari 26.3

- My budget has a limit of around $600-700 (I've kept $300-ish aside for accessories)
- 26" tyres
- Disc Brakes (yes I know the Giant Boulder doesn't have them, but I'm looking at the cost of adding them)
- Not going the elcheapo Big W road (Been there and time to get a little serious)
- Suspension lockout (the GT Aggressor 1.0 doesn't have this?)

I've read many forum posts that state you should not go too expensive because as the bug bites, you'll end up replacing it in a year's time! Others say buy the best you can afford now and it will last. A tough compromise is needed and I think I've found one in this selection.

I am open to any suggestions, advice, opinions you can throw at me. I'm itching to by and start riding after nearly 2 decades.

Cheers,

Arthur
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by BNA » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:19 am

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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby bychosis » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:19 am

Is there any reason you want 26" wheels? There are options, can't say which is best for you though.

Don't buy a rim brake bike if you are going to upgrade to discs, it will cost a lot more than if you save a bit longer and start with discs. Low end discs are probably not as good as rim brakes anyway. Disc brakes are really only necessary if you are going to get wet/muddy, rim brakes are fine at all other times.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby trailgumby » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:49 pm

26" wheels will disappear from the market in the very near future except in the gravity disciplines where big wheels and big suspension travel are difficult to fit together on the one frame.

For a hardtail I'd recommend a 29er. It will cost a little more now, but if it turns out it's not for you then it will have better resale value by far, so it's a lower risk proposition overall. They are also more stable off road over the bumpy stuff, and smooth out the bumps better.

As for brakes, discs all the way. Most of the entry level bikes with hydros will come equipped with Tektro hydraulic brakes, which actually are half-decent. And if they save you only once from having an off, hitting something or being hit, the small addtitional cost will have been well worth it. And with a bit of education they are actually lower maintenance than cable brakes. However, if hydraulics brakes are outside your budget then cables units are still better than rim brakes, especially in the wet.

I've just picked up a road bike with rim brakes, and they're awful. I'm hoping a pad change will improve things, but was warned by the shop owner not to expect them to be anywhere near as good as my hydraulic discs. Given the tyres are only 23mm wide and the position is way forward and over the bars maybe that's not such a bad thing, but it doesn't stop me from still being very nervous in traffic for now. :lol:
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:33 pm

trailgumby wrote:I've just picked up a road bike with rim brakes, and they're awful. I'm hoping a pad change will improve things, but was warned by the shop owner not to expect them to be anywhere near as good as my hydraulic discs.
I agree with the stop owner. Don't get your hopes up. The main reason I have a disc on the front of the my road bike is that I found road caliper brakes to work poorly from the hoods (where I spend by far most of the time).

trailgumby wrote:Given the tyres are only 23mm wide and the position is way forward and over the bars maybe that's not such a bad thing, but it doesn't stop me from still being very nervous in traffic for now. :lol:
Yet if you put those 23s on your MTB and did some road braking tests, I believe you'd find they stop just as well as your wider tyres.

As for the position, do ya wanna go fast or not? Dem roadies are for goin', not stoppin'. :D
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby ArthurM » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:36 pm

Thanks for your replies.

bychosis wrote:Is there any reason you want 26" wheels? There are options, can't say which is best for you though.


Regarding the preference to 26" wheels, I tried to ride on some 29" and 700c (?) and the bikes just "felt too big" for me. I'm only slightly built at 5'8. Also the models listed in the OP just kind of fell into my budget.

bychosis wrote:Don't buy a rim brake bike if you are going to upgrade to discs, it will cost a lot more than if you save a bit longer and start with discs. Low end discs are probably not as good as rim brakes anyway. Disc brakes are really only necessary if you are going to get wet/muddy, rim brakes are fine at all other times.


Yes the LBS gave me a very rough ballpark amount of $200 to convert .
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby trailgumby » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:45 pm

Were the 29ers appropriately sized for you? At that height, you'd be on the smaller end of a medium in most brands I'd expect.

650b/27.5 is another option to look out for, although with the frame failures Giant is having with its 29ers I'd maybe look at another brand.

@nobody, with you all the way :lol: The Swisstop blacks I fitted last night are a significant improvement (tried the bike out with the new pads when I went to vote today) but still don't hold a candle to the XTs on the dually. At least now I feel like I could pull up in time if I really needed to.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby visrealm » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:50 pm

trailgumby wrote:I've just picked up a road bike with rim brakes, and they're awful. I'm hoping a pad change will improve things, but was warned by the shop owner not to expect them to be anywhere near as good as my hydraulic discs. Given the tyres are only 23mm wide and the position is way forward and over the bars maybe that's not such a bad thing, but it doesn't stop me from still being very nervous in traffic for now. :lol:


Sorry, this isn't related to OP question, but I was also pretty disappointed with the brakes when I got my first road bike. The good news is (for me) new pads made a massive difference. I put on a set of Swissstop Green pads and my braking confidence was restored :)

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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:56 pm

ArthurM wrote:Regarding the preference to 26" wheels, I tried to ride on some 29" and 700c (?) and the bikes just "felt too big" for me. I'm only slightly built at 5'8. Also the models listed in the OP just kind of fell into my budget.
I'm also 5'8" and have a 26" wheeled MTB. I would say if you want to buy 26" that you should consider secondhand as many are offloading their 26" bikes to get the more_in_fashion wheel sizes. In reality the 27.5/650B wheel size is really measured at 27" and testers are hard pressed to tell any difference between them and a 26" bikes. Although 29" will be a bit faster, you do lose some tight section maneuverability and they accelerate a bit slower as they weigh a bit more.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Duck! » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:16 pm

trailgumby wrote:...although with the frame failures Giant is having with its 29ers I'd maybe look at another brand.

That problem is affecting ONE frame model out of literally a dozen off-road frames produced by Giant, at a very different level of the engineering envelope. We're talking a high-level race frame where parameters do get pushed, obviously sometimes too far. There have been no such issues with frames in the market segment the OP is looking at, because they are built with much more mass-market conservatism.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby bychosis » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:38 pm

ArthurM wrote:Yes the LBS gave me a very rough ballpark amount of $200 to convert .


Thats doesn't sound like enough, even for cheap brakes. You will most likely have to get wheels relaced with new hubs, or new wheels to accept the disc, along with the discs and calipers and if going hydraulic from a basic bike you may even need shifters because lower end bikes often have combined brake and shifter levers..
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:10 pm

trailgumby wrote:...650b/27.5 is another option to look out for...

As another 5-8er with short legs, long torso, this is the route I'd be looking to roll down were I in the market ATM. All the 29s I've sat on to date mean a too short TT if the rest of me is comfy.

Giant Talon 650 looks better than nice IMO.

I still love the chuckability of my two 26" dirty girls. 8)
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby mitzikatzi » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:16 pm

As stated probably not a lot of future resale value in 26 inch bikes. However there are some very good deals on both new and second hand 26" bikes. Look for a $1000+ bike (new) marked down to your price range.
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trailgumby wrote:29ers are awesome.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Calvin27 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:20 pm

My advice:

- Go for 29er if you are not doing tight single trails. Yes the bike feels big when you haven't ridden for a while. After about 5 year absence of biking, I got onto a hybrid (700c/29er size wheels) and it felt huge. The salesperson assured my not to go down a size and even jokingly put a bet that if I still felt like that 1 month in he would let me trade it in for the size down. A few kms in and I am glad I took this advice.

- Get disc brakes from the start. I cam from a MTB background so these are not negotiable. Yes calipers will do the job but seriously all MTBs are getting disc even at the lower end. At your prices range (600-700) you should be getting at a minimum hydraulic disc brakes.

- At the price point it would probably make sense to take out $150 from the budget and get rock shox xc32 front forks. Everything sold below $800 seems to have really crappy front fork and not worth the steel it is made from. Look for the bike with the best specs and worst fork. Personally, forks are the most noticable part on a MTB.

My pick of the bunch is the GT (if 26er) although personally I dislike the look of the triple triangle.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby ArthurM » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:38 am

Thanks guys,

I'll see what I can find with a bigger wheel in my price range. What about the 27.5"? That is effectively the same as a 700c in terms of diameter, correct? I have come across the Giant Talon 2014 model http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-au/bikes/model/talon.27.5.5/14926/66447/

bychosis wrote:
ArthurM wrote:Yes the LBS gave me a very rough ballpark amount of $200 to convert .


Thats doesn't sound like enough, even for cheap brakes. You will most likely have to get wheels relaced with new hubs, or new wheels to accept the disc, along with the discs and calipers and if going hydraulic from a basic bike you may even need shifters because lower end bikes often have combined brake and shifter levers..


Yeah, I went back that afternoon (before reading your reply) and quizzed him about this and he said "oh yeah, forgot to add in new wheels" :?

Mulger bill wrote:
trailgumby wrote:...650b/27.5 is another option to look out for...

As another 5-8er with short legs, long torso, this is the route I'd be looking to roll down were I in the market ATM. All the 29s I've sat on to date mean a too short TT if the rest of me is comfy.

Giant Talon 650 looks better than nice IMO.

I still love the chuckability of my two 26" dirty girls. 8)


Okay, I've broadened my philosophy on my first bike in such a long time...... Bear with me on this. My two paths I need to be very clear to myself on is:

(A) go and get a $400-ish Giant Boulder 1 or GT Aggressor 1.0 - try it over the next 9-12 months. Thrash it. Learn more about what I can do. Learn what the bike can do - Then look at investing in a $700-1k MTB this time next year. By then my knowledge and experiences will be far better tuned. or.. (B) Go for the $700-ish bike with all the lower-end bells and whistles now.

Any opinions on the Avanti brand? They seem to have retailers everywhere.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby mitzikatzi » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:10 am

Nothing wrong with Avanti bikes.

I have ridden some pretty "rough" fire trail or 4wd track. Most $400 bike will handle poorly. Most $700 bike swill only handle slightly better. If you want a bike that you can actually ride off road then you need a bike with a Suntour XCR fork or Rockshox TK 28/30/32 (28 for smaller people 30 and 32 for bigger people). IMHO

If I was spending $400 or $700 (new) I would be buying a discounted 26 inch bike much better "bang for buck" than a new model full priced 27.5/650b bike.

30 seconds on bike exchange Scott Aspect 20 2012 $699.95
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trailgumby wrote:29ers are awesome.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Calvin27 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:49 pm

I normally hate when people give advice which stretches the budget just a little more but this is a sweet bike for $50 over your price range ($750).

http://www.focus-bikes.com/int/en/bikes/bikes-2013/category/mtb-hardtail/subcategory/29r-ht-1/model/black-forest-29r-50-27-g.html
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby trailgumby » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:53 pm

Calvin27 wrote:I normally hate when people give advice which stretches the budget just a little more but this is a sweet bike for $50 over your price range ($750).

http://www.focus-bikes.com/int/en/bikes/bikes-2013/category/mtb-hardtail/subcategory/29r-ht-1/model/black-forest-29r-50-27-g.html

Looks really nice, but no mention of fork spec on that link. :?
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Calvin27 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:32 pm

I can confirm it's as XCR - I was pretty close to buying this one instead of my Cooker Hi. My old bike had XCR before it got MIA. Compared to my XC28 it's miles ahead even though it is considered lower spec. Probably Suntour bias at its best.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Brotality » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:58 pm

Hi there,

I think i'm in exactly the same boat as you are, I've just posted this viewtopic.php?f=9&t=67682 a few days ago.

I think the Talon 27.5 5 by far the cheapest bike with disc brakes (but please bare in mind I'm as new as you are, just did a bit of research on the available stuff (in my area))
and 27.5" is actually the same as 650b, 700c is 29"

What I feel from everyone's responses here, that they are so far up the ladder they can't quite see the first steps.(or is it just me?)

I was planning to pull the trigger next weekend, I'm happy to share my experiences (which i'm really looking forward to), maybe it can help you decide.

Cheers.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby mitzikatzi » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:09 pm

Brotality wrote:..snip...
What I feel from everyone's responses here, that they are so far up the ladder they can't quite see the first steps.(or is it just me?)
..snip...


Not sure what you mean by this.

I don't make the rules. Mountain bikes are expensive.
If you want a bike that will handle the rigors of off road riding and handle well you need to spend closer to $1000. New riders/ first time posters often don't like this advice.
Many only want to spend $500 on a bike to do everything well. $500 buys a nice fork or set of wheels.

I think as new forum members you have both been given good advice.
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trailgumby wrote:29ers are awesome.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Brotality » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:05 pm

mitzikatzi wrote:
Brotality wrote:..snip...
What I feel from everyone's responses here, that they are so far up the ladder they can't quite see the first steps.(or is it just me?)
..snip...


Not sure what you mean by this.

I don't make the rules. Mountain bikes are expensive.
If you want a bike that will handle the rigors of off road riding and handle well you need to spend closer to $1000. New riders/ first time posters often don't like this advice.
Many only want to spend $500 on a bike to do everything well. $500 buys a nice fork or set of wheels.

I think as new forum members you have both been given good advice.


It is very good advice and I've learned far more that what I would've imagined here. What I think the problem is, the difference in our points of view. I Imagine that you see mountain biking as going through a very rough terrain with pumps and challenges, but for us as beginners we wouldn't dream of tackling such terrain, if its not because of our lack of confidence in our bikes, it would be because the lack of confidence in our skills. Building our skills and understanding the bike capabilities is what I mean by first steps.

I hope this makes it a bit clear, my apologies if it sounded offensive in anyway.

cheers.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby mikedufty » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:27 pm

I thought it was a fair point. I normally ride a $1000 plus bike, and they are very nice to ride, but when I've ridden $500 bikes they do the job. I think they are generally good enough to figure out if you are going to be hooked on mountain biking, it which case you'll probably enjoy spending more on a better bike later. I suspect most people figure out they actually don't get around to riding as much as they thought they would, in which case the $500 bike does just a good a job of rusting quietly away in the shed as a more expensive bike. Of those that do go off road I suspect a lot don't push anywhere near hard enough to really appreciate a good fork.

I quite like my $3000new (bought it for $1500 second hand) dual suspension bike. But I only get out about once a month, so it does about 200-300km a year.
I've got an $80 second hand 20 year old rigid in singapore I ride about 3 days a year. It is nowhere near as nice to ride, but heaps better than not having an mtb there, and still good fun.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby Calvin27 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:38 pm

I think no matter what advice anyone gives, first timers will always never buy the bike they want first time round. So I for one don't think minimizing budget is a bad thing. So long as you don't put $300 to get a BSO and sell it for $50 of scumtree then a, say $500 entry MTB will make a lot of sense. I mean how many unridden $1k bikes do you see often for sale. Either people are lying about it (unlikely if it's in pristine condition) or a lot of people don't actually buy the right thing no matter how much they spend. I would only push the money ceiling if you are sure you will get the use out of it.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby mitzikatzi » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:57 pm

Brotality wrote:.....snip...
What I feel from everyone's responses
It is very good advice and I've learned far more that what I would've imagined here. What I think the problem is, the difference in our points of view. I Imagine that you see mountain biking as going through a very rough terrain with pumps and challenges, but for us as beginners we wouldn't dream of tackling such terrain, if its not because of our lack of confidence in our bikes, it would be because the lack of confidence in our skills. Building our skills and understanding the bike capabilities is what I mean by first steps.

I hope this makes it a bit clear, my apologies if it sounded offensive in anyway.

cheers.



Earlier in the year I rode the Munda Biddi Trail. An off road touring track. Ridden by people on touring bikes.
One lady rode a Matts TFS 100 (might have even been a higher model it had an XT RD) . She struggled the bike struggled it was always on the stand.
This is what she brought when she got back Lush 29 SL

A number of riders struggled who had cheaper bikes. The cheap forks are like pogo sticks and bounce you off.

Having ridden the MB Trail and the Mawson Trail in SA. Both touring routes and a long way from true mountain bikes trails. I have seen riders on cheap bikes suffer on both trips.

Buying a bike is a trade off/risk. To expensive and you risk having a bad investment in the shed. Too cheap and you risk not liking riding bikes because the bike is not nice to ride. Better bike pedal easier, change gears better and stop better etc. People complain about the cost of bikes (my workmates) yet spend $100 a month on there phone and whatever there fox tel and beer costs a week.
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Re: My MTB Short list

Postby silentbutdeadly » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:35 am

Mitzi is right. It's not like we are trying to taunt beginners by saying you aren't spending enough...we are trying to be helpful. We've all been beginners and many of us know the compromises involved in the under $1K class of bikes. Because we've been there already...

As beginners yourselves it helps to have an open mind that in this class you are being marketed to...not specified for. These cheaper bikes come with the features of more expensive bikes like suspension forks and disc brakes but they are often totally inadequate for the riding you might have in mind to try. In many ways, it would be in your favour to forgo the 'features' and focus on the function but that option is (sadly) rarely available at this end of the scale.

Most of the original bikes proposed are basically pathway bikes...not mountain bikes. Their geometry and specification will only serve to annoy/hurt/frustrate you when things get tricky. The Giant Talon on the other hand is a significant step up - it is no giant killer (if you can pardon the pun) but it is an extremely capable MTB and an outstanding entry level bike. One of the young fellas I race with has just been handed one by his parents and he's really enjoying it over his old (and technically more capable) early noughties Giant Trance.

The advice to look for a 2nd hand 26er is quite sound - a mate just picked up an unmolested 2009 Giant XTC 26er in mint condition with full XT drivetrain and a RS Reba shock for $500 from the LBS that some dude had traded in on a carbon 29er. It's a $1,500 bike all day long if it was a new bike...
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