Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you recommen
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Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you recommen
Postby kallvatten » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:58 pm
I'm in the market for a pedal system and appropriate shoes. Basically I want to make the swap to cleats, but I'm not sure which direction I should take as far as road or (walkable) MTB pedals.
I'm mostly going to be doing training rides in a suburban area. I'm a fairly short distance rider as I'm relatively new, but the goal is to do longer distance rides (70km+) in the long term as I improve (I'd love to eventually do the Great Vic Bike Ride!) I don't plan to race at any official level, but it's an eventual possibility. Besides that, I'll probably just ride to my mates' places and so on. Likely not commuting to and locking up the bike in public places. Essentially, most of my rides will be from home to home, with maybe a café stop along the way.
I'm happy to go either way. I like the idea of power efficiency with road pedals and cleat systems and think they would suit more in the long term, however SPD pedals sound ideal as a beginner, and having "walkable" shoes is handy. However, also to be considered, I developed Osgood Schlatters disease (a knee condition.. effectively my knees are weaker than normal) when I was younger, and suspect the more adjustable the pedals are, the more beneficial to avoid injury.
What do you recommend? All advice is greatly appreciated. If it helps, I'm riding a steel roadie.
Thanks everyone!
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby CXCommuter » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:15 pm
For walking I actually prefer the road cleats as they are a wider platform and plastic, the MTB cleats are narrow and more unstable being metal they slide around more (IMO).
There are other systems out there that might suit you better but will let those more familiar with them discuss
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby kallvatten » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:34 pm
Thanks for the quick response CXC. That's interesting to hear practical experience comparing the two for efficiency.. a bit more to think about then. I think in regards to the cleats being okay for walking, if I were to get MTB shoes instead I assume the issues with walking on the smaller metal SPD cleats would be alleviated?CXCommuter wrote:I use both road and MTB SPD's, I cannot tell the difference when riding re efficiency. MTB pedals (shimano) typically have more float and easier to clip in as you can get double sided pedals.
For walking I actually prefer the road cleats as they are a wider platform and plastic, the MTB cleats are narrow and more unstable being metal they slide around more (IMO
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby SheikYerbouti » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:55 pm
http://www.bicycles.net.au/2013/03/shim ... ng-pedals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Incredibly easy to clip in and out of, can clip out in 3 directions, very unlikely to have a clip stack Shoes are also fine for walking around the shops in, etc, they just look like sneakers. Not as stiff as road shoes, very stiff compared to normal shoes.
Shoes and pedals as per that review is <$130 (at Bike Bug).
They're a platformy double-sided pedal which you can manage in sneakers for a quick short notice ride to the shop, too.
The cleats are SPD so you can upgrade the pedals later if you want without having to change shoes.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby rodneycc » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:57 pm
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewt ... =9&t=70322" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've become a bit of a speedplay freak in recent times. If you have dodgy knees try the speedplay zero's or the Frogs (wearable with SPD shoes).
Ebay and Gumtree is your friend with plenty of good prices for these to try them out.
Cheers.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby barefoot » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:28 pm
I've been using SPD-R road pedals for a bit over a year.
I love the road pedals for what they're good for - clipping in once, and not clipping out again for an hour or so. They are awkward to clip in to (by comparison) and terrible to walk in (although not as bad as some roadies make out, waddling around the cafe), but they are noticably more stable on the bike.
I love the MTB pedals for everything else. They are a no-brainer to clip in to, especially double-sided ones - I just stomp down on the pedal and I'm in (I'm still horribly uncoordinated getting in to my road pedals... make sure they're the right side up, poke with the toe, miss, pedal another rev 1-legged, poke with the toe, catch the cleat, stomp down and you're in - usually by the other side of the intersection). A decent commuter / tourer shoe will have enough rubber on the sole that the cleat will barely (if at all) touch the ground - walking in sensible MTB shoes is like walking in slightly stiff-soled joggers.
I walk a couple of hundred metres each way from the bike rack to my office each day, wearing Vibram-soled SPD commuting shoes. On the occasion when I ride my road bike to work, I scoot through the gate and ride around the factory grounds to my office to avoid having to walk so far on hard plastic road cleats.
I don't have any experience with the various non-Shimano systems, but see no reason why they'd be significantly different. MTB pedal systems are the best for almost everything.
tim
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby kallvatten » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:02 pm
Thanks for the link Rodney - Speedplay's pedals sound pretty great based off that (the company itself, not so much from that WW thread..) I did actually get a recommendation from my LBS regarding Speedplays as far as knee comfort and freedom of adjustment, but it seems generally I probably would be fine with Keos or SPD-SLs if I can get past the single-sided pedal anyway. Points for the pedals regardless! I'll bump them up the list..rodneycc wrote:Hi Mate maybe check out this thread...
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewt ... =9&t=70322" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've become a bit of a speedplay freak in recent times. If you have dodgy knees try the speedplay zero's or the Frogs (wearable with SPD shoes).
Ebay and Gumtree is your friend with plenty of good prices for these to try them out.
Cheers.
Specific question regarding them, as you're sort of 'here' and have experience: are they as stable a platform as other road pedals (when clipped in), or do they feel more similar to SPD-like pedals?
Cheers Tim. In that case SPDs do sound very reasonable, seems like the major highlight is them being double-sided. And of course the treaded shoes are convenient..barefoot wrote:I love the road pedals for what they're good for - clipping in once, and not clipping out again for an hour or so. They are awkward to clip in to (by comparison) and terrible to walk in (although not as bad as some roadies make out, waddling around the cafe), but they are noticably more stable on the bike.
I love the MTB pedals for everything else. They are a no-brainer to clip in to, especially double-sided ones - I just stomp down on the pedal and I'm in (I'm still horribly uncoordinated getting in to my road pedals... make sure they're the right side up, poke with the toe, miss, pedal another rev 1-legged, poke with the toe, catch the cleat, stomp down and you're in - usually by the other side of the intersection).
I don't have any experience with the various non-Shimano systems, but see no reason why they'd be significantly different. MTB pedal systems are the best for almost everything.
tim
I imagine however that I'll probably end up carrying a spare pair of shoes on me if I actually need to stop to walk for an extended period of time as I'm not really commuting, so maybe I may as well go the road route and pick up Speedplays as they seem to have the best of both worlds being double-side and a road system? Hmm!
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby MattyK » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:21 pm
A530 pedals also worth considering if you want to use flat pedals occasionally, or A600 if budget permits.
And/Or Shimano road shoes with the SPL-SL / SPD dual mounting holes and a set of SM-SH40 cleat adaptors so you can walk in them.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby rodneycc » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:45 pm
Hard to explain the zeros, they are firmly in but free. Its more the size of the cleats on your shoes that becomes the platform but I think they are just as good a platform as SPD-SL's and SPD (I don't really notice much difference in a down/up motion to be honest. ). The Frogs are a little different. At the beginning I found sometimes I had to check if I was still clipped in which was a little off-putting but to get in and out of is by far the easiest out of all the pedals I have tried. Cheers.kallvatten wrote: Thanks for the link Rodney - Speedplay's pedals sound pretty great based off that (the company itself, not so much from that WW thread..) I did actually get a recommendation from my LBS regarding Speedplays as far as knee comfort and freedom of adjustment, but it seems generally I probably would be fine with Keos or SPD-SLs if I can get past the single-sided pedal anyway. Points for the pedals regardless! I'll bump them up the list..
Specific question regarding them, as you're sort of 'here' and have experience: are they as stable a platform as other road pedals (when clipped in), or do they feel more similar to SPD-like pedals?
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby high_tea » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:52 pm
I have Look Keo 2s on my road/track bikes and much prefer the SPDs for commuting. The pedals are easier to use and the shoes are miles nicer to walk in.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby Duck! » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:04 pm
Personally, if you're after the most versatile cleated system, I'd suggest what Shimano describe as a "Trail" SPD pedal, such as the M530 or M785:
The extended body fore & aft of the cleat mech provides a larger contact area when cleated in compared to the familiar (now labelled "Race") SPD design:
....thus improving stability (the most noticeable difference from the large SPD-SL pedals & cleats) and reducing "hot-spotting" from the traditionally small contact area. Do note however that they're not designed to be used without cleats.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby kallvatten » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:23 pm
I guess in the end you really do just have to make some compromises and determine what's more important. Based on what I've seen and read so far, I think Speedplays may be the way to go (despite them being tight-fisted on copyrights and so on). Good suggestion with the trail SPD (AT) Duck, but I think if I'm going to go for such a system to alleviate such issues as hotspotting from the smaller SPD pedals, I may as well go all the way with a road set as I don't foresee a scenario where I'd be forced to walk any significant distance without a change of shoes (again, as any major commuting isn't in the books).
In the long run I may end up getting both systems, really, which seems to be relatively common! Bit of an n+1 bikes and pedal systems scenario in a way. Just trying to get as close as I can to the best decision the first time around, and it sounds like I probably won't go wrong with Speedplays overall. However, anyone reading this: please feel free to tell me why they're horrible or clearly the worse choice!
Thanks again everyone. I'll continue to read further advice and suggestions of course, as it will be about a week before I go out and get anything. I'll update when I do, too!
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby rodneycc » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:12 pm
Edit: Oh and the spike spanks on the 29er with the sneakers!
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby Xplora » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:34 am
Now run road shoes with Speedplays. Cleat sticks out even further with a total stack of 1 inch from the sole of the shoe on the right side.
My road cleats are ok to stop with, they aren't horrible to clip into or out of, and they are moderately better than the float on SPDs.
Your biggest concern and consideration is "do I need to push off the ground to get rolling?" and it makes 1000% sense if you live in an even slightly hilly area. I CANNOT get a reliable push if I'm going up more than 4-5% gradients with the road shoes. You have to roll at least a foot, and between the push from your unclipped foot and the push on the crank with your clipped foot, you might run out of momentum There are a couple of places I consistently have big problems trying to roll away from. This has only happened once every 3000kms... that might not be acceptable to you, and you might live in an area where you must unclip on steep hills regularly.
I never ever had this hill problem with my rubber soled MTB shoes. Yes, the walking is better in MTB shoes but are you too embarrassed to undo your shoes completely and walk shoeless? I doubt you will regularly experience so much glass that you couldn't - you wouldn't ride a bike there if you did. I commute and ride with road shoes. Just makes sense to me, even with the challenges. You get REALLY good at predicting how to continue rolling, if you can't trackstand
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby Xplora » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:43 am
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby MattyK » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:07 pm
There's still a big difference in the ease of engaging a road cleat vs a single-sided SPD cleat. I've had M505 and M540 double-sideds and I do not find the A520 any harder to clip in to; you just have to (only sometimes) flick it over to the right side up. Which you wouldn't have to do with the A530...Duck! wrote:"Half &half" pedals such as the A530 seem to attract polarised opinions more than any other type of pedal. Yes they have the capacity to be used without cleats if you're just doing a squirt down to the shops or whatever, but on the other hand the weighting of them tends to leave them hanging cleat-side up, which can be a nuisance if you're not wearing cleats 'cos you have to kick them over.... On the other side, when you're wearing cleated shoes, you're faced with the "roadie problem" of only having the cleat mech on one side.
Do they? Do those fore and aft parts actually contact the shoe? And if so (not the case on the A520s) does this actually provide more support (given that your foot is actually being supported by the semi-rigid some of the shoe)?Personally, if you're after the most versatile cleated system, I'd suggest what Shimano describe as a "Trail" SPD pedal, such as the M530 or M785:
The extended body fore & aft of the cleat mech provides a larger contact area when cleated in compared to the familiar (now labelled "Race") SPD design:
....thus improving stability (the most noticeable difference from the large SPD-SL pedals & cleats) and reducing "hot-spotting" from the traditionally small contact area. Do note however that they're not designed to be used without cleats.
I will reiterate my vote for the SPD road type pedals and Road Touring shoes
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby Xplora » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:16 pm
The day that speedplay zeros can be used in a flat shoed shoe that can be walked in is the day that Shimano buys them out and abandons SPD... Makes me wonder why no one has tried.MattyK wrote:There's still a big difference in the ease of engaging a road cleat vs a single-sided SPD cleat.
I haven't found any difference between SPDs and Zeros.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby MattyK » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:27 pm
Ergo, SPD cleated touring shoes:
<edit> you can even get them in a bundle:
http://www.bikes.com.au/p/5362929/shima ... combo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby rodneycc » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:48 pm
Think that iswhat the speedplay frogs were an attempt at. They actually got pretty close but not quite. But yeah I'd agree I would buy something like that...Xplora wrote: The day that speedplay zeros can be used in a flat shoed shoe that can be walked in is the day that Shimano buys them out and abandons SPD... Makes me wonder why no one has tried.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby barefoot » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:41 pm
Hehe.Xplora wrote:^^ Also, if you go SPD, do not bother with flat sides or any of that crap. Get a high quality double sided cleat, like a Deore XT, and get on with life. I had tremendous issues with the cheaper pedals for some reason, regardless of spring tension, and absolutely none, regardless of spring tension with the XT66s I used.
Funny you should say that.
I still have the M535 pedals I first bought in 1996, and they still work almost perfectly. So that part of your assertion holds true. Shimano pedals don't die.
I have had and killed several pairs of off-brand SPD-compatible pedals. That part holds true as well.
EXCEPT...
...the one-sided off-brand pedals on my commuter
I've had them so long I can't remember what they are. Probably VP or something. I remember they were horribly cheap, which is the only reason I went with them instead of Shimano (having learnt that lesson often enough). They get used for two rides every single day, and they don't even have a second side to spread the workload over. They've been through at least 4 pairs of shoes that I can remember wearing out, and they're still going strong. The only thing wrong with them is that the rubber grip strips on the flat side are deteriorating.
They are an exception to the "stop and you're in" quality of SPD pedals. I stomp on these ones and I'm usually in... otherwise, I'm securely on a flat pedal for a couple of strokes, until I can lift the foot for half a stroke and stomp again. Not a show stopper. Especially compared to a road pedal where if you stomp the wrong side, smooth plastic on smooth aluminium means you're probably going to cop a pedal to the shin and/or a stem in the nuts (if you are so equipped).
I rarely use the flat side, and if they ever die I'll probably replace them with double-sided Shimano pedals again, but they've been remarkably good to me.
Another thing on caged SPDs; they don't solve the foot stability "problem" like road pedals do. I put quotes on problem because I didn't consider it a problem until I used the solution.
On SPDs, the feet are able to rock - rotating from side to side around the small cleat. This is especially true with cleats that have worn down a bit. There's a bit of clearance, a bit of play, and it's amplified over the width of your foot.
On road pedals, the cleat is so much wider, you have a much wider connection to the pedal. Even if there was a bit of clearance, it's so wide that the angular play would still be minimal.
Like I said, I didn't consider it a problem until I used road pedals and noticed just how stable they are. A flat bit of alloy in front and behind the cleat isn't the same.
tim
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby Xplora » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:51 pm
The Frog appears to be a MTB SPD system, rather than a "ROAD" system, to my eyes. Doesn't allow for walking properly. (should also mention a disclaimer - my Shimano MT42s are capable of being walked in, but are only borderline for comfy than my hyper light road shoes with the mutant cleat stack, the reinforcement of the shoe prevents comfortable walking).
I think the whole industry has got their head screwed on incorrectly. You want elderly Chinese gentlemen BSO riders using cleats, not Cadel Evans. For every road race dreamer there are a dozen POBSOs... the entire structure of the cleat/shoe system has been set up for extreme use, realistically. Road riding in the peleton or mud riding in the rain. What about the mediocre hobbyists and general public who want to pedal faster than flats will allow and think pedal cages are nuts? Click'R is probably on the right track, but I haven't used them.
barefoot,
I have a reasonably significant roll on my right foot (honestly, you want to see some popped eyes, watch people examine my road shoes for the first time) and SPD actually allowed me to ignore than issue for a while. So, the inferior support of MTB systems (and don't pansy out on this, MTB/SPD loyalists out there, they SUCK compared to road cleats) is actually a blessing if you need more range in the position than a fixed cleat, flat soled road shoe offers. Road shoes are SUPPOSED to be brutally hard to put your foot in. If they are set up to cope with your personal foibles, I'll take road shoe every time. It's just frustrating that road shoes are completely inappropriate for all social occasions except post ride coffee.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby rodneycc » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:49 pm
Edit: what I want is a x-trainer shoe with that massive speedplay cleat recessed into the flexible walkable sole but I doubt I will ever see it.
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby kallvatten » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:06 pm
@Xplora: It's pretty flat from where I live, maybe a ~1% grade at most if I started from my mate's place down the road.. so I don't really need much to get going at all. Certainly some horrible hills around here though.. got one around the corner that (according to Strava) is a half km 12% grade. But ATM I'm just avoiding anything that bad. So I'm quite certain that getting moving isn't an issue. I'm now thinking that if I am pretty much just going to be riding on the road, most of the convenient features of using SPDs will probably be lost to me, so I may as well get a road system. If I need to take my shoes off sometimes, so be it.
@Matty: Personally the mud-shedding of the pedals/cleats is fairly irrelevant to me as I don't plan to off-road in them, and I think just about any pedal will shed water just fine. But based on the cleat construction it certainly does make sense that SPD cleats should last significantly longer than Speedplays.
I suppose this raises another question to you guys running Speedplays - how expensive has it been maintaining their use?
And @Xplora again, certainly. Of course I am likely the least knowledgeable here in this thread, but I think there's quite a gap in the market as far as clipless pedals for the casual rider goes. SPDs come close but they're still ostensibly a MTB pedal that happens to be relatively convenient for commuting and casual use. However, I can't imagine the big-name companies will bring out anything specifically for that part of the market. Not just an adaptation of an existing design but a new one that actually suits that kind of use. There's probably someone out there on Kickstarter with a socially acceptable low-profile clipless design, though.
@Rodney: don't expect that'll happen anytime soon either! In theory it wouldn't be too difficult to pull off, though..
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby rodneycc » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:19 pm
http://www.bikebug.com/pedals-cleats-ke ... 28002.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Pedal for training and some commuting.. what do you reco
Postby rodneycc » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:27 pm
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