Buying a steel frame and need advice

Vanny
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Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Vanny » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:03 pm

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum here and I am seeking some advise on steel frames as I have decided to sell me carbon frame. The carbon frame is areo and is not great on my back on rides more than 30km. I prefer to push out the km instead is all out speed.

So I have compiled a short list of the following:
All City Mr Pink
Soma Smoothie
Bomtrack Tempest

My preferred so far is the All City Mr Pink, however this comes at a 50% premium over the other two.

What are your thoughts and can you think of any brands to look at? The budget is up to $2,000 will need to includes a new cockpit, seat post, BB and brakes.

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nickobec
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby nickobec » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:02 pm

If you are having back issues riding for an hour on aero bike either:
1. the bike is badly fitted for you
2. you have a back issue

If 1 you need to understand why it is badly fitted and what corrections you need to make (on this frame or a new frame)

If you buy a new frame steel or otherwise, You need to decide on the geometry first. If you preference is more distance over speed, you should be looking at endurance geometry over race geometry.

I own a few steel bikes, most traditional racing frames of various material SLX, 853, 531, tange infinity, 4130, 1080. I really agree with this article on tubing, a lot more of the ride is tyres, wheels, geometry than tubing. (It does make a difference but often it is a personal preference)

Sorry could not be of more help or give you a recommendation.

owly
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby owly » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:59 pm

Agree with nailing down the geo that best suits your riding style first.
At your budget I'd first book a fitting session on one of those wizzbang bike contraptions to get your numbers.

Then I'd even consider a secondhand frame from the bay; something like 858 or Spirit maybe. Way more options than what you'd find in Aust alone.
MUFC :twisted:

Nobody
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Nobody » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:43 pm

Like previous posters, I agree that you need to determine what kind of bike fit you need and therefore the geometry of the next frame you buy. You can either - as suggested - get a bike fit. Or if you are sure you know what you want, you can take some measurements on your current setup then determine what you need.

Suggested measurements below:
Both measurements are taken from the middle of the bottom bracket to the vertical center of the stem where it joins the steerer tube (see photo). These measurements are more relevant than standard frame REACH & STACK as they give you a measurement at the STACK height that you'll actually use. At this measurement point, the length is slightly reduced from the frame REACH.
Image

If you choose to use this method. You can post the measurements you currently have and/or want and what frame you want to buy. From that I've written a spreadsheet which allows me to calculate the expected REACH length (to stem) at the STACK height (to stem) you will use. This is calculated from the manufacturer's geometry chart.

I used this method to buy a frame online (pictured) and it worked out as expected.
Last edited by Nobody on Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vanny
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Vanny » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:04 pm

Apologies this was a quickly written post with a 10 month clawring atme. I should have included:
1. I have a existing back issue.
2. A bike fit has been booked with a physio to determine the correct geometry for me.

Once the bike fit has been completed I will then be in a position to make a choice.

Cheers

hamishm
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby hamishm » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:38 am


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uart
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby uart » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:50 am

It's interesting to me that all four of the steel bikes recommended above have carbon fibre forks.

I'm not knocking that, but it does make me wonder. If you're going to go with steel then why not go the whole proverbial hog? Or alternately, if carbon is superior for the forks then why isn't it superior for the whole frame?

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Duck!
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Duck! » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:50 pm

They behave differently. Steel tends to be not as stiff against low frequency impacts - power-induced frame flex and big impacts, so it absorbs that kind of stress, and it's relatively springy, so it recovers well from those impacts as well. The springiness takes some of the edge off small road chatter & vibration, but a lot it does still transfer through.

Carbon is very stiff against low frequency impacts, but due to the nature of the composite layup is a lot better at absorbing high frequency vibrations because the resin component is able to compress a tiny bit and dissipate the vibration.

The use of carbon forks is to aid steering stability by minimising flex while still offering vibration damping performance.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

Vanny
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Vanny » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:18 pm

Curve Grovel. Lots of fun. https://www.curvecycling.com.au/product ... l-v2-frame
Bike looks great, however I just upgrade my wheels and they are rim brakes :(
It's interesting to me that all four of the steel bikes recommended above have carbon fibre forks.

I'm not knocking that, but it does make me wonder. If you're going to go with steel then why not go the whole proverbial hog? Or alternately, if carbon is superior for the forks then why isn't it superior for the whole frame?
Carbon forks are just a personal preference. While I want to go steel, I would still like to keep the weight around 10kg. I'm trying to get the best of both worlds really.

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Warin
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Warin » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:15 pm

Vanny wrote:1. I have a existing back issue.
2. A bike fit has been booked with a physio to determine the correct geometry for me.

Once the bike fit has been completed I will then be in a position to make a choice.
How well does the physio know bikes? Take a photo of yourself on the bike in question along to the physio to get max value out of the visit.

See if you can borrow a steel bike from someone your size and go for an extended ride.. does it really help with your back pain? If not and it is lower back pain then I'd be looking at a thud buster seat post, weight is a fair amount but you do get comfort.

I suspect that a change from carbon frame to steel will see little change in your back pain. Unless the geometry of how you sit/fit on the bike is changed .. and then you can do that with a carbon frame too. The change of behaviour between the carbon frame an steel frame is small and probably not enough to remove the back pain by itself. You can get more effect from tyre sizes and pressures.

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DavidS
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby DavidS » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:07 pm

I have an Allegro T1, steel frame. I like it very much, worth checking out.

But I agree, geometry is the key. I have a bad back too and it is well worth getting it right.

DS
Allegro T1, Auren Swift :)

Vanny
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Vanny » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:34 pm

The physio is Leon Vogel, and he has worked with cycling team. He was recommended by my local bike shop.

The idea behind steel is to go for something different and capable of absorbing some more road chatter, however the priority is to get the geometry right. On my current bike I am simply too stretched. If the geometry of the frames I listed does not work then they are of the list and I will look for alternatives.

From what I have read about the frames and what I understand about the geometry that riding position is more upright (which I need) than my current bike.

My current bike is a Giant Propel large frame size which is 58cm. I will try and get the reach and stack.

Vanny
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Vanny » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:40 pm

The measurement for a 58cm frame is:
stack is 40.2 cm
reach is 58.1cm

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/prope ... ced-1-2015

owly
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby owly » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:02 am

You're in Perth, right?

The Soma and AllCity, through CyclesBespoke?
MUFC :twisted:

Vanny
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Vanny » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:30 pm

You got that right. Cycles Bespoke is my new local.

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redsonic
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby redsonic » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:04 pm

I built up a Ritchey Road Logic frame. Steel, with carbon forks and rim brakes. It totally damps road buzz and handles way better than I can do justice to.

http://www.clickbike.com.au/_p/prd1/363 ... road-logic

owly
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby owly » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:23 pm

Vanny wrote:You got that right. Cycles Bespoke is my new local.
I'm in walking distance from there.

Have a Curve Grovel v2 frameset arriving in the next few weeks. If you ever want to check one out, give me a bell.

Once Vogels gives you the frame numbers, if you put them up here, I might be able to suggest some other steel frameset options in your budget.
MUFC :twisted:

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nickobec
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby nickobec » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:40 am

Vanny wrote:Carbon forks are just a personal preference. While I want to go steel, I would still like to keep the weight around 10kg. I'm trying to get the best of both worlds really.
No need to worry about 10kg, my 2nd most ridden steel bike is 2005 KHS flite 800, (853 reynolds), with carbon forks (alloy steerer), full Ultegra 6600, usually with some pretty heavy wheels and it is 9kg.

My most ridden steel bike is 25 year old italian built, colombus SLX tubed, belguim badged with steel forks, with period bars and stem. SRAM Red, CF seatpost and decent wheels and it tips the scales at 8kg.
Vanny wrote: I just upgrade my wheels and they are rim brakes
A good wheelset and tyres are most important to quality ride. The new wheels, wide profile? As you are concentrating on distance and comfort over speed, I would suggest 28mm tyres if possible, failing that 25mm.

The KHS frame has no issues with the 28mm tyres, but the ultegra brake calipers are close fit. My other frames it is 25mm max.

So after right geo for your frame, next is maximum tyre width for the frame, most relax geo steel frames should have good tyre clearance, but check. Then it is finding brakes that will support your chosen frame + tyre choice.

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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby hamishm » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:22 am

owly wrote:Have a Curve Grovel v2 frameset arriving in the next few weeks. If you ever want to check one out, give me a bell.
FWIW I'm loving my Grovel v2.

owly
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby owly » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:05 pm

hamishm wrote:
owly wrote:Have a Curve Grovel v2 frameset arriving in the next few weeks. If you ever want to check one out, give me a bell.
FWIW I'm loving my Grovel v2.
How do you have it set up? any pics?
MUFC :twisted:

Vanny
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Vanny » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:07 pm

Nickobec, yes my next frames priority is a more relaxed geometry, and it will be distance and comfort over speed. Tyres requirements are 28C plus, hence my current preference for the Mr Pink. My Propel can run a maximum of 25c tyres. The new wheels are 25mm wide with 16.5mm internal width, so hopefully the will accommodate 28C tyres.

Owly the Grovel and Belgie Spirit look great, problem is my new wheels are rim brakes :(
I would love to see the Grovel when you have built it up.

hamishm
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby hamishm » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:09 am

owly wrote:
hamishm wrote:
owly wrote:Have a Curve Grovel v2 frameset arriving in the next few weeks. If you ever want to check one out, give me a bell.
FWIW I'm loving my Grovel v2.
How do you have it set up? any pics?
I haven't taken any close ups. Build is Ultegra with RS-685 hydraulic shifters, Kinesis Crosslight disc wheels (700c), Maxxis Rambler 40mm tyres.

Image

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Thoglette
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Thoglette » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:45 pm

Vanny wrote:You got that right. Cycles Bespoke is my new local.
If you get into the CBD you're welcome to try my '80s vintage Gemini Randonneur, if only to taste 32mm tyres.

Obviously you need to sort your geometry but sensible tyres (32mm or wider and supple) make a huge difference.

A sprung Brook-style saddle is also very good for the back.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Vanny
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Vanny » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:51 pm

Hi Thoglette, sure I would be very happy to have a look. PM me when you are free and I will come into the city.

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Thoglette
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Re: Buying a steel frame and need advice

Postby Thoglette » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:58 pm

Vanny wrote:. The new wheels are 25mm wide with 16.5mm internal width, so hopefully the will accommodate 28C tyres.
You can run 28s on 13mm no problem. 16.5 will officially cope with really quite wide tyres according ETRO as quoted by Mavic
Mavic wrote: Norms are setting barriers and rules to ensure rider safety. ISO 4210 refers to the ETRTO manual that provides a chart to show which combinations are possible and safe :
b
Image
Note that 99.9% of modern rims are "crotchet" (hooked0 type, despite Mavic's text implying otherwise. And all Tubeless compatible and "high pressure" tyre rims are hooked. I imagine that a straight walled rim is special order item these days. (I have some in the shed and one on the front of the bike).
Vanny wrote:Owly the Grovel and Belgie Spirit look great, problem is my new wheels are rim brakes :(
Unless you're riding in mud this is a non-issue, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth in the press.

Yes, the the first wet day after a dry spell you'll need to be mindful of all the crap on your rims. And give them the occasionally tap to keep them clean(ish). But ultimate breaking power is _not_ your biggest problem in the wet!

Modern centre pull and side pulls (on narrow tyres) are pretty damn good: if money was no object the Grand Cru and Compass centre pulls are ultrablingy. And a crap load easier to set up than cantis, (which need to be re-set up as the pads wear).
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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