New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Noviss
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New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby Noviss » Mon May 29, 2017 8:52 am

I am looking to purchase a new set of road wheels. I have narrowed the field down to Fullcrum racing 3 and Shimano RS81. The question now becomes whether I go tubeless or not?

The wheels will be mainly used for group riding and perhaps a commute every now and then. If anyone has any experience with tubeless your input would be appreciated. Tubeless tyre recommendations would also be helpful. There doesn't seem to be a huge selection.

Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Noviss on Mon May 29, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MichaelB
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Re: New wheels - Clincher or tubeless?

Postby MichaelB » Mon May 29, 2017 9:01 am

Tubeless rims are also Clincher.

Unless you mean Tubular ?

Noviss
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Re: New wheels - Clincher or tubeless?

Postby Noviss » Mon May 29, 2017 9:13 am

MichaelB wrote:Tubeless rims are also Clincher.

Unless you mean Tubular ?


Thanks for pointing out my error. Heading amended.

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Derny Driver
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Re: New wheels - Clincher or tubeless?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon May 29, 2017 9:17 am

The tubeless Fulcrum 3s have a shallower rim well which makes fitting of tyres, tubeless or clincher, a PITA. If you don't intend to ride tubeless tyres, buy the normal Fulcrum 3s.
In my opinion the 2-way fit wheels are rubbish.

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Re: New wheels - Clincher or tubeless?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon May 29, 2017 9:20 am

MichaelB wrote:Tubeless rims are also Clincher.

Unless you mean Tubular ?

Racing 3s and RS81 don't come in tubular versions.
They come in clincher or tubeless. Tubeless is not tubular. Tubular tyres have tubes sewn inside. Tubeless have no tubes, a spin off from the MTB wheels.

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Re: New wheels - Clincher or tubeless?

Postby Noviss » Mon May 29, 2017 9:52 am

Derny Driver wrote:The tubeless Fulcrum 3s have a shallower rim well which makes fitting of tyres, tubeless or clincher, a PITA. If you don't intend to ride tubeless tyres, buy the normal Fulcrum 3s.
In my opinion the 2-way fit wheels are rubbish.


If I went with the 2-way fit wheels my idea was to have an each way bet. I have had a couple of slash punctures that the tubeless sealant wouldn't have handled so I though if I had the 2-ways I could at least alleviate this problem. But from what you are saying it wouldn't work. Tubed clinchers seem the way to go.

Thanks.

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Derny Driver
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Re: New wheels - Clincher or tubeless?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon May 29, 2017 10:52 am

Noviss wrote: If I went with the 2-way fit wheels my idea was to have an each way bet.
.

Yes and that's the marketing / idea behind them. In my opinion they do neither well. Just my opinion. I have never owned tubeless wheels. My son has the normal Fulcrum 3 clinchers and races A grade on them. They are marketed as a "Gran Fondo / recreational wheelset" but are way better than that.

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Re: New wheels - Clincher or tubeless?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon May 29, 2017 10:54 am

Noviss wrote:... I have had a couple of slash punctures that the tubeless sealant wouldn't have handled so I though if I had the 2-ways I could at least alleviate this problem.

In theory a tubeless tyre should get less pinch flats than a standard tyre and tube.
All other types of puncture would be the same for either tyre type.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby Duck! » Mon May 29, 2017 2:36 pm

Tubeless wheels give you the flexibility of choice; they can be set up normally with standard tyres & tubes, but you can't go tubeless on standard rims.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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MichaelB
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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby MichaelB » Mon May 29, 2017 3:17 pm

Duck! wrote:Tubeless wheels give you the flexibility of choice; they can be set up normally with standard tyres & tubes, but you can't go tubeless on standard rims.


You can, but it requires extra items to be purchased such as special tape and the tubeless valve stems.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby nickdos » Mon May 29, 2017 3:30 pm

A riding buddy of mine got a new bike and it came setup with tubeless tyres & sealant on tubeless ready rims (Giant Gavia SL tubeless tyres). He got a flat in the first week of riding it and when he tried to put a tube in on the side of the road, he couldn't get the tyre off the rim with the shorter tyre levers he had in his kit. He subsequently went back to GP4000S II and tubes.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby brokenbus » Mon May 29, 2017 5:14 pm

I have Campy Zonda with Schwalbe Pro Ones 23c which are tubeless. Have done 1000km with much of that riding on the edge of the Pacific Hwy on the Midnorth Coast of NSW so there is plenty of sharp objects. I have been really happy with them and have not had a flat as of yet but there is a bit of a graze on the sidewall on the rear tyre from when I skimmed a large piece of gravel. I tend to run about 95psi in the rear and 80 on the front which is a bit less than the old tyres but probably not putting me into pinch flat territory. I have a new set of Pro Ones 25c in the cupboard for when these wear out so I would say I am pretty happy with the whole setup. You will find the Campy wheels a bit cheaper than the Fulrums and from all reports I have seen, Campy make both or visa versa. Just make sure you pick the right freehub when you order. You also need to add some sealant every 6 months as it does dry out.
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Thoglette
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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby Thoglette » Mon May 29, 2017 5:50 pm

Noviss wrote:The question now becomes whether I go tubeless or not?

Having watched this conversation since 2009 I'm standing by my opinion: Road tubeless is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

You get to buy heavier wheels to for a smaller range of tyres (possibly incompatible) which can't be reliably inflated nor removed on the roadside to avoid low pressure pinch flats.

All the while praying that the gunk you squirted in when you installed the tyres is still good in case you actually get a puncture.

Now, some correspondents do ride in cow paddocks full of caltrop or through wire recycling facilities. In which case tubeless has definite merits.
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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby battler2 » Mon May 29, 2017 6:24 pm

i disagree. it's a problem that does exist. and that problem is simply having to stop to change a tube for a puncture that you might not otherwise have to if you had tubeless. probably saves about 10-15mins depending on how quick you are.

the extra rim weight is negligible. and you typically don't do change/repair roadside of a tubeless tyre. you need a floor pump or compressor anyway. you can carry a spare tube (as i do) in case the sealant doesn't do it's job. and it's not hard to get the tyre off/on again with good levers and knowledge of how to get it on with minimal fuss.

yes it doesn't seal all punctures but small ones, like from a thumbtack, it will.

you will experience a drop in psi, but there should be enough to get you home 40-60psi. how often do people inflate to the max psi on a portable pump after fixing a tube anyway? co2 won't reach that anyway.

you also don't mention ride quality, which is noticeably better. which is in tubular territory but i've never gone that far. requires pre-gluing and stuff, which is far more effort.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby battler2 » Mon May 29, 2017 6:25 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Duck! wrote:Tubeless wheels give you the flexibility of choice; they can be set up normally with standard tyres & tubes, but you can't go tubeless on standard rims.


You can, but it requires extra items to be purchased such as special tape and the tubeless valve stems.


no you can't. the rim profile does not suit. the scar on my left thigh is proof of this, despite being told by an irresponsible dealer that they were tubeless 'ready'.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby Noviss » Mon May 29, 2017 6:55 pm

Thanks everyone for the input. Like most things there are pros and cons to each option. I guess I need to weigh up what factors are more important to my situation.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby Duck! » Mon May 29, 2017 7:13 pm

battler2 wrote:
MichaelB wrote:
Duck! wrote:Tubeless wheels give you the flexibility of choice; they can be set up normally with standard tyres & tubes, but you can't go tubeless on standard rims.


You can, but it requires extra items to be purchased such as special tape and the tubeless valve stems.


no you can't. the rim profile does not suit. the scar on my left thigh is proof of this, despite being told by an irresponsible dealer that they were tubeless 'ready'.

On MTB you can get away with "ghetto" tubeless setups on standard rims due to the much lower tyre pressure, but it's strongly advised against on road wheels.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby CKinnard » Mon May 29, 2017 7:17 pm

Your bodyweight is a significant input if you are trying to reduce any type of puncture.

I have a friend who tried tubeless in 2015.
They can lose way more air than a mtb tire before the goo seals a puncture, at least half if you are inflating over 100psi which tends to be necessary if you weight over 85-90kg.
They are much harder to on/off.
I've seen my mate go through 2x CO2 cartridges to inflate from scratch, and the can be a PITA with a small pocket pump.
I watched my mechanic change tubeless a few times and the the goo had hardened into a grub shaped blob with no ability to seal punctures. My mechanic told me this can happen within 3 months.

I've got a set of Shimano ultegras which are 2 way, but after seeing my mate's issues I have no desire to try tubeless.

When it comes to bicycles, simple, tried, and true means a lot.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby Duck! » Mon May 29, 2017 7:43 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Noviss wrote:The question now becomes whether I go tubeless or not?

Having watched this conversation since 2009 I'm standing by my opinion: Road tubeless is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

You get to buy heavier wheels to for a smaller range of tyres (possibly incompatible) which can't be reliably inflated nor removed on the roadside to avoid low pressure pinch flats.

All the while praying that the gunk you squirted in when you installed the tyres is still good in case you actually get a puncture.

Now, some correspondents do ride in cow paddocks full of caltrop or through wire recycling facilities. In which case tubeless has definite merits.

Nearly as much misinformation as a disc brake thread.....

Difference in rim weight is stuff all. Yes tubeless tyres on their own are heavier than their standard counterparts, but the combined weight of tyre + sealant is approximately equal to or slightly less than a standard tyre + tube, so ultimately there is virtually no weight difference. Tubeless tyres roll better than tubed, because eliminating the tube removes internal friction between tyre & tube which increases rolling resistance, especially when running lower pressure. Which leads to the other benefit of tubeless - elimination of pinch flats. By definition, pinch flats are the entrapment of the tube between the tyre and rim, and you cannot pinch something that isn't there! It can be possible to "burp" tubeless through a combination of low pressure and a big bump, but the small volume of road tyres makes this quite unlikely.

I'm not sure where you get the incompatibility idea from; tubeless are essentially clinchers, but with a slightly different rim profile, which locks the tyre beads in more securely, and slightly beefier beads on the tyres for a more snug fit for sealing. All clincher tyres will fit tubeless rims, and all tubeless tyres will fit standard clincher rims, but discretion should be used regarding contemplating running tubeless on not-fully-up-to-spec equipment combinations.

Sealant won't fix everything, it's naive to believe it will. Tread belt punctures will seal more reliably than sidewalls, because the g-force of the spinning wheels will tend to gravitate the goo to the outermost reach it can go to - the centre of the tyre. If you get a flat with tubeless, take the valve out & stuff a tube in like any other puncture. Yes there is a bit of a knack unlocking the bead to get the tyre off, and for properly popping it back up on the bead when inflating, but I've seen many standard clinchers not properly popped up & seated too, but it's no great difference in difficulty or time to fixing any other flat.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby MichaelB » Tue May 30, 2017 9:07 am

Duck! wrote: On MTB you can get away with "ghetto" tubeless setups on standard rims due to the much lower tyre pressure, but it's strongly advised against on road wheels.


Oh, OK. Have done it on std road clinchers myself without issues.

Fair enough.

Gone back to tubes however myself.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby jacks1071 » Tue May 30, 2017 1:55 pm

MichaelB wrote:Oh, OK. Have done it on std road clinchers myself without issues.

Fair enough.

Gone back to tubes however myself.


Most people seem to end up back on tubes within 12 months, it was fun to play with.
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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby MichaelB » Wed May 31, 2017 9:35 am

My main gripe with the tubeless/sealant combo was the PITA having to regularly-ish clean out the 'snot & boogers' that formed when the sealant went hard.

And the odd time that I got a puncture that didn't seal and still needed a tube roadside, it was a messy ordeal ....

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby biker jk » Wed May 31, 2017 9:48 am

MichaelB wrote:My main gripe with the tubeless/sealant combo was the PITA having to regularly-ish clean out the 'snot & boogers' that formed when the sealant went hard.

And the odd time that I got a puncture that didn't seal and still needed a tube roadside, it was a messy ordeal ....


I considered tubeless but the reports of many problems from riders using them convinced me to stay away. I think Giant made a mistake to fit their Gavia tubeless tyres as standard on their disc brake road bikes.

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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby jacks1071 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:42 am

biker jk wrote:
MichaelB wrote:My main gripe with the tubeless/sealant combo was the PITA having to regularly-ish clean out the 'snot & boogers' that formed when the sealant went hard.

And the odd time that I got a puncture that didn't seal and still needed a tube roadside, it was a messy ordeal ....


I considered tubeless but the reports of many problems from riders using them convinced me to stay away. I think Giant made a mistake to fit their Gavia tubeless tyres as standard on their disc brake road bikes.


I think it is something every mechanically capable cyclist should have a crack at. Tubeless isn't a silver bullet to punctures though which is what I think most people trying it are looking for.

Yes some small cuts, very small cuts will seal but in my experience more often than not they don't. Even if they do seal in my experience the tyre won't hold high pressure unless it is a very tiny hole so you end up riding home with maybe 30-40psi in the tyres which is surprisingly okay. I've tried a Hutchinsons permanent repair kit on a cut that was about 3mm and it didn't hold, I think the sealant had maybe contaminated the rubber a bit preventing the permanent repair kit from working so that tyre went in the bin with about 500km on it.

You usually get sprayed by high pressure sealant which is a bugger to clean off yourself and your bike - I'm still finding sealant on one of my frames! Then, when it doesn't seal, it is a nightmare to get a tube in as everything is covered in crap and the beads on the tyres are crazy, crazy tight so getting a tube in without puncturing it to ride home is a mission.

One thing I will say is that if a puncture doesn't seal the deflation is certainly slower than a tube puncture which if I lived somewhere that I was doing high speed descents regularly, that would be a factor that might have me back on them full time.
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Re: New wheels - tubeless or standard?

Postby AndyRevill » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:52 pm

I went tubeless just over a year ago. Why? Tassie roads are fairly ordinary both in the amount of rubbish and the quality of the surface as there seems to be a tendency towards really coarse chip seal plus a few of my favourite rides involve stretches of dirt road so I was keen to be able to run lower pressures to improve the comfort factor.

The Domane came with Bontrager tubeless ready wheels so all I needed was their specific tubeless rim strip and valves. I'd been running 25mm Schwalbe ones and really liked them so went with the Pro Ones in the same size. Sealant choice was Orange Seal. The whole set up was easy, tyre fitting was marginally tighter, they sealed first time with a track pump and held pressure overnight with no sealant. Popped in the sealant and that was that. Rode them for 3,000 km with one "puncture" which I didn't know about until the end of the ride when I discovered the tell tale spray on the seat post. Checked the pressure and it was at 65 psi from 90. Goop cleaned off the bike easily with a couple of baby wipes. Note I continued to ride the same tyre post the puncture and it held pressure the same as prior. I found I was topping up every other day.
At the 3,000 km mark I built my wife a bike so she got the wheels and I got some new ones from XLR8 with HED Belgium tubeless ready rims with tubeless tape and stayed with another set of the Pro Ones. Fitting was just as easy as on the Bontrager rims. Have just completed a 1,000 km ride round the state with no puncture.

Some comments on maintenance: it's different to what we're used to. If you don't like different it's probably not for you. If you're the sort of person who can't do something that has the potential to get really messy without it getting messy then it may not be for you. As an example, you do need to check the amount of sealant left in the tyre as it will dry out, timeframes vary depending on where you live, in Tassie I seem to still be good after 5 months but tend to check every 3. I've seen people do this by leaning the bike against a wall and let the air out and then complain when goop leaks out everywhere because the weight of the bike on the deflated tyre opens the bead. However, put the bike on a stand and deflate the tyre and you can unscrew the valve core and use a disposable syringe with a bit of tube to suck out what's left and see how much you've got - mess free! Some people see this as a real pain, fair enough but I don't see any difference to periodically taking the tyre off to check the tube.

I haven't yet had to put a tube in at the side of the road so can't comment on that but see no reason why it shouldn't be fairly straightforward but yes, could get messy which is why I carry a set of disposable medical gloves in the spares kit.

I've had way fewer punctures than when I was on tubes which at this stage I'm putting down to the lower pressures, I certainly had several pinch flats prior to the change.

So for me it works and I enjoy the ride. I never say never but at this stage I don't see myself going back anytime soon.

Cheers, Andy
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