First power meter - guidance and feedback please

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biker jk
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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby biker jk » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:20 pm

MichaelB wrote:
biker jk wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Good luck and enjoy !!! Did you get dual sided ?

Let us know how you go.


He mentions drive side pedal removal.


He also mentioned
Left side UGH. Eventually got it off.


I thought you saw that and missed the reference to the drive side pedal being removed, which indicated it's dual sided power.

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Baalzamon » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:45 pm

Correct. Dual sided. 4 more hours and glue should be dry. Short 10 min ride tonight and I should be able to do the calibration in the morning. I've got thurs n friday off so will be the beginning of the learning curve
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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Baalzamon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:59 pm

1st ride with it today. 48km. Well for the 1st 35km I was getting a 0 - 100% balance and I was like OK that was because it was in ANT+ mode. Anyhow had my coffee and feed and took off and next thing my L-R balance was working / not working. I haven't checked for any firmware updates for these yet. And I do need to work out my FTP as well.

I've got nothing to put the accuracy up against right now. I am eyeballing the Elite Direto trainer, so I will be able to eventually say how accurate it is. Also I do want to build another dynamo wheelset for this bike with smaller rim profile. (upgraditis is at it again) And I would put a powertap in the rear as well. (upgraditis again)
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Arbuckle23
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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Arbuckle23 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:37 am

Now you have had this for a while Michael, time for questions from me.

Do you think you have gained any benefit from using a power meter?
Does it assist in pacing your rides, riding to a power figure for example?
Or is it nice to have, but really just another toy :D

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby MichaelB » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:28 pm

Arbuckle23 wrote:Now you have had this for a while Michael, time for questions from me.

...


:D :D :D :D Had to laugh when I saw this, as I was thinking about it when riding in this morning to work !!

Do you think you have gained any benefit from using a power meter?


I'm not a 'stem watcher' but occasionally have the screen setting where 3s power is visible when I'm either pacing myself (it does flick around a bit, but is a guide) or giving a segment a red hot go.
On the main screen, I have Avg Power as one of the smaller fields so that I have an idea of where I am for the overall ride.
Probably the biggest benefit has been the fact that the PM, coupled with the right software has given me some derived metrics, like Form and Fatigue, so that I can see when I need to have a lower intensity ride or 2, or even a few days off.

I sometimes, look at the data after a certain ride where I have managed a PB (or not) on a segment that I had a go, just for info, giggles or groans, and just see what it says. It's good to see that sometimes I may be slower, but the NP/Avg Power for a climb is higher, so it shows that the difference may have been a section in the headwind and rather than depress me, show that for the effort expended, I actually did better.


Does it assist in pacing your rides, riding to a power figure for example?


Um, sometimes. The 3s power (I may try the 5s one for a while) tends to jump around a bit, and isn't as stable as I'd like it to be, but then that's a good indicator of how smooth the climb isn't, how inconsistent I am, or just poor pedalling smoothness. Meh.

I am getting to know that on certain climbs that I've done a few times, what sort of power numbers I need to average to improve my time/overall effort (it's not just about time or speed, as sometimes I'm carrying my bag to work, so the PM accounts for the extra weight) and gives a better indicator of the energy expended.

As I said before, I don't stem watch too much. I also don't do a set program or intervals. But one example of where it might help in pacing, is when I go to a new place, and the total ride is a bit unknown, I can use the power figures (3s power on a climb, average for the ride etc) to keep some reserve there.


Or is it nice to have, but really just another toy :D


70/30 - Toy/Useful.

I'm glad I got it, but at the same time, I wouldn't spend $1,500 on a certain brand, worry about dual sided or get too hung up on the accuracy for what I use it for.

The FSA Powerbox at $720 delivered works fine for me, and is probably the best value for money option in my mind. The proprietary rings are a -ve, but there are options as to what level they are replaced with and they usually last a while.

So a :mrgreen: from me

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:35 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Arbuckle23 wrote:Does it assist in pacing your rides, riding to a power figure for example?


Um, sometimes. The 3s power (I may try the 5s one for a while) tends to jump around a bit, and isn't as stable as I'd like it to be, but then that's a good indicator of how smooth the climb isn't, how inconsistent I am, or just poor pedalling smoothness. Meh.


Power output when cycling is naturally stochastic, even during quasi steady state effort.

Depending on the way a particular meters measures power, some additional variability in the second to second reported power can also be introduced due to aliasing, either because they use time based sampling of torque data (rather than event based) or due to the manner in which a meter determines when a complete rotation of crank arms is completed, i.e. using firmware to infer crank position (as opposed to actually measuring it with say a reed switch and cadence magnet).

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby PiratePete » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:57 pm

Arbuckle23 wrote:Now you have had this for a while Michael, time for questions from me.

1> Do you think you have gained any benefit from using a power meter?
2> Does it assist in pacing your rides, riding to a power figure for example?
3> Or is it nice to have, but really just another toy :D


Can I hi-jack this?

From my perspective having gone for years without one, then buying a dual sided PM last November as part of my knee rehab...

1> Yes, it's changed my methodology of training and riding in general, I used to always strive for a better average speed, whilst trying to manage my HR. Now I work on power alone, HR is managed by managing power, speed is irrelevant due to environmental conditions. as @MichaelB said it cements the data supplied to the cycling data crunching tool of choice, which results in more accurate information coming back for managing fatigue/stress and knowing when to rest, and more importantly when not to.

2> Yes, I recently did a 180km ride, the longest since my knee injury. Before this I had not exceeded 110km so a big step up. But I had worked out that for the 110km rides (done several with the PM), at 200w I was still reasonably fresh, at 220w I was starting to suffer. My mFTP is 224w (according to WKO4 - expensive but excellent tool for bi-lateral power data). So for the 180km charity ride I set a goal to budget power at 200w. The ride summery screen on my ELEMNT at the end of the ride said 196w, and I was still fresh and could have quite happily kept riding.

3> Nice to have yes, toy no way. Firmly part of the kit now.

If I can also add in my situation, I can see when my knee is causing issues before I can feel a problem. During a longer ride I can see the power output from by dodgy leg dropping off, primarily during a flat section under less load. For me a single sided PM would be a toy, a dual sided one a tool.
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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Arbuckle23 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:09 pm

Thanks for the feedback Michael & PiratePete.

Food for thought.
I am at the point where I have been contemplating whether it was worthwhile.
My original thoughts were no need, but having got a bit of the racing bug recently, my daily rides tend to be a bit more focused now.


PiratePete wrote:If I can also add in my situation, I can see when my knee is causing issues before I can feel a problem. During a longer ride I can see the power output from by dodgy leg dropping off, primarily during a flat section under less load. For me a single sided PM would be a toy, a dual sided one a tool.

Do you have power from each side up while riding?

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby MichaelB » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:09 pm

Another side thought was the same/similar $$ would get me a better set of wheels.

I think even on my (and PP’s scenario) the PM is a better option.


(AT) Alex - thanks for the added info re variability :-)

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Arbuckle23 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:39 pm

MichaelB wrote:Another side thought was the same/similar $$ would get me a better set of wheels.


That has crossed my mind as well.

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:55 pm

PiratePete wrote:2> Yes, I recently did a 180km ride, the longest since my knee injury. Before this I had not exceeded 110km so a big step up. But I had worked out that for the 110km rides (done several with the PM), at 200w I was still reasonably fresh, at 220w I was starting to suffer. My mFTP is 224w (according to WKO4 - expensive but excellent tool for bi-lateral power data). So for the 180km charity ride I set a goal to budget power at 200w. The ride summery screen on my ELEMNT at the end of the ride said 196w, and I was still fresh and could have quite happily kept riding.

Based on that your actual FTP is higher than 224W.

mFTP will only be as good as the data it is fed. If there are an inadequate representation of maximal capability across the duration spectrum, then mFTP will likely not reflect actual aerobic capability.

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Arbuckle23 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:25 pm

I may have bought a Power Meter today :shock: :lol:
Good thing my wife doesn't read this forum :oops:

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby queequeg » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:26 pm

Arbuckle23 wrote:I may have bought a Power Meter today :shock: :lol:
Good thing my wife doesn't read this forum :oops:


The beauty of power meters is that they can be completely invisible on the bike :-)
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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby PiratePete » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:16 pm

Arbuckle23 wrote:Do you have power from each side up while riding?


Yes in a percentage representation, i.e. 52/48 (on a Wahoo ELEMNT), updates every second and I suspect (but don't know) that it is based on the current power figure's timing which I have the 3 second reading displayed. On another screen I have the left/right figure displayed as an average of the entire ride too.
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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby PiratePete » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:30 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Based on that your actual FTP is higher than 224W.


Quite possibly, WKO4 uses the last 90 days data to determine mFTP. My training has been quite haphazard this year due to other commitments, however my fitness is much greater now than 90 days ago. Training Peaks automatically updates my mFTP figure and it currently sits on 222, and WKO4 has now dropped to 219...

As you said the mFTP is only as good as the data it's fed. I've been working on budgeting power for a while now so in taking it easy, the data fed to the machine will suggest a lower than actual FTP. Without a trainer and the will power to do a proper FTP test I can only work with the information on hand. But as I'm not using the PM for the purpose of making up for other (cough) physical inadequacies, I'm happy to run with what WKO outputs. It is showing a trend in the right direction, last November it was saying 165w.
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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby MichaelB » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:51 am

Arbuckle23 wrote:I may have bought a Power Meter today :shock: :lol:
Good thing my wife doesn't read this forum :oops:


So what did you get and from where ?

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Arbuckle23 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:03 am

Watteam Powerbeat Single side.

Been though a lot of web crawling to get to this decision. Decided this was price effective and single side would achieve what I wished.
Shane Millers testing against the Garmin Vector 3's was positive enough to push me to this brand.

Pushy's had 15% codes up yesterday, brought the price to $339, so hit the order button.

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby MichaelB » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:24 pm

Great & enjoy. I didn't go with the WattBeam in the end for me, as with carbon cranks, it's not yet a goer.

It'll be interesting to hear how you go using it and how you find the additional info changes your riding (or doesn't) :D

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Arbuckle23 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:43 pm

I've had a lot of thinking about what I want to get out of owning a power meter.
I want to improve my riding pace and improve my sprinting ability.
I have tended to work on average speeds and keeping my heart rate up, along with how hard I think I am pedaling, to gauge how I am progressing.
Most of my midweek training rides are in wind, so this can be variable from day to day, depending on wind strength and direction.
So using power to measure my work effort on the training ride should help me in being consistent and help me increase my speed and sprint efforts.

There is the new toy element in there as well :D

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:06 pm

If sprint data analysis is a key factor, you need to choose your power meter carefully.

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Arbuckle23 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:29 pm

Only an old fella playing Alex, not trying to do anything seriously.
Just having fun with toys and trying to improve slightly in my old age :)

Edit: To qualify a little.
I realise the Powerbeats have been criticised for their performance is full sprint efforts. I am not looking to measure my performance in sprints. I would be not capable or want to put out massive watts. I just want something that can quantify my performance improvements plodding along my training circuit looking for minor improvement and giving me a constant effort to cycle to regardless of wind direction. I think it will be adequate for that.

And really just another toy to amuse myself with that hasn't cost an arm and a leg.

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Arbuckle23 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:06 pm

Not sure how that comes across to you Alex. Apologies if that seemed abrupt.
I understand that you are an expert in the training field and your advice is always very sound.
But I am not a serious cyclist, just doing it for fun and looking to use something just to monitor myself as I go along.
I have enjoyed my little foray into racing with old blokes like myself and just looking to improve myself in a small way using a tool that doesn't cost too much.
I could't afford or justify an all singing/dancing toy for my level. My research tells me this should do what I want.
Whether I will improve is up to me to get the most out of what I have, if not I will have had fun trying.

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:35 pm

Nah, it was just a PSA on my part.

Have fun and enjoy your new toy :)

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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby kb » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:51 am

Saw my first Vector 3 pedals on a group ride yesterday. The owner was pleased with them. Hadn’t changed batteries yet and was unaware of the large number of issues post-change that users have had. Advised him m to read the page of tips from Garmin :)
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Re: First power meter - guidance and feedback please

Postby CKinnard » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:18 am

One of the advantages of a power meter is it can help you work out your energy expenditure more accurately.

Energy Expenditure (Calories/hour) = Average Watts * 0.8605 / Pedaling Efficiency %

where pedaling efficiency is typically 21-24% (higher for more experienced cyclists who pedal smooth and don't move the body and legs around unnecessarily)

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