I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

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MichaelB
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby MichaelB » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:42 am

Hi Paddles - it depends on what press fit B.B. you have, but in the end, there are plenty of options out there that are limited only by your wallet and what you deem to be important (cost, drag, colour, country of supply etc)

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Paddles
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Paddles » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:19 am

The crankset info says BB386EVO, but the Merida info says BB86 are they just one and the same? The wallet is a limiting factor but it's on an gravel type bike (Silex) and I'm no racer so drag isn't that much of an issue :mrgreen:

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Duck!
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Duck! » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:14 pm

BB86 and BB386 are NOT ths same. Both have an 86mm wide shell, but 386 has a larger bore to accommodate cranks with a 30mm spindle. BB86 is designed for 24mm spindles. However Rotor and maybe others do produce a bottom bracket with low-profile bearings that allows a BB386 crank to fit in a BB86 frame.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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MichaelB
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby MichaelB » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:14 pm

Duck! wrote:BB86 and BB386 are NOT ths same. Both have an 86mm wide shell, but 386 has a larger bore to accommodate cranks with a 30mm spindle. BB86 is designed for 24mm spindles. However Rotor and maybe others do produce a bottom bracket with low-profile bearings that allows a BB386 crank to fit in a BB86 frame.
And that leads to problems of another nature as well. Smaller profile bearings by their nature have smaller 'balls' (hope that comes out right .... :wink: ) which then tend to have a shorter life.

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Paddles
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Paddles » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:17 pm

Thanks gents, I reckon I'll wait till it gets really annoying and then check the spindle diameter before replacing. The Gossamer website reckons 30mm for the crankset so I'm suss on the Merida info.

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MichaelB
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby MichaelB » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:13 pm

And here I am again ....

JRA (no, really !!) and felt something odd as I was pedalling along, getting me out of my annoyance and planning on what to do with the new creaking saddle ...

After some looking, thinking, head scratching and several attempts to sort it out. Noticed something on the DS dropout.

Couldn't be. :o A crack :shock: :evil:

Yep. DS dropout fully cracked through. 11 months and 5,736km later, the Kinesis 4S Disc frameset dead.

PFBB.

Contacted Pushys and sent email re warranty.

Pending their response, may be redoing that or building the Volagi Liscio again ....

NOT. HAPPY. JAN.

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Duck! » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:48 pm

I'm trying really hard but failing to see what relevance a broken dropout has to bottom bracket formats.... :(
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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MichaelB
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby MichaelB » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:34 am

Duck! wrote:I'm trying really hard but failing to see what relevance a broken dropout has to bottom bracket formats.... :(
Because of the frame with the broken dropout (whilst I wait for the outcome of warranty replacement discussions with Pushys/Kinesis supplier), now will look to using the BB30 frame (Volagi Liscio) in shed to build up, and hence on the hunt for a BB for a 386EVO crank in a BB30 frame (original intent for this thread).


Any experience with either Tripeak Or Enduro Torqtite screw together adaptors ?

Can get either from DIYMTB, but Tripeak is $145 for steel bearings and Enduro is $265 for SS bearings. Both are screw together, but is the Enduro $120 better ?

EDIT : Reworded the reply to make more sense :D

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Paddles
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Paddles » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:56 pm

Ok, it's got to me now, yesterday I endured 70km with my bottom bracket making enough noise to make dogs bark and pedestrians stare at me. I've found that Wheels MFG and Hope make a screw together bottom bracket to suit the 386EVO format of the Gossamer Pro chainset and the BB386 bracket on the bike. Throw another manufacturer/supplier at me if you know of any. I rang the bike shop and they reckon that Merida will probably just throw another set of press fit bearings at me. So I said that I'm not keen on having this happen again and would be happy to pay the difference for a screw together type job and they said they'd look after me.

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MichaelB
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby MichaelB » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:49 pm

I’ve got a TriPeak one on my Volagi now and it’s creak free after 2,000km.

Not to sure if they have one to fit yours.

Another one with good ratings are Hawk Racing.

C-Bear are also well regarded

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Paddles » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:11 pm

Cheers Michael, Tripeak was one of the brands the bike shop mentioned but I hadn't found any info on them yet.

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:28 pm

Have used a Wheels Mfg unit in your application, worked well but apparently Rotor also make good stuff. We considered the C-Bear but was too expensive.
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Paddles
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Paddles » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:32 pm

Thanks 10speed, I've now sussed out both the WheelsMFG and the Tripeak ones and I'd be happy with either. Whichever one the shop can get in the quickest will be first choice.

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby MichaelB » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:09 am

I got my TiPeak one from DIY MTB

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby g-boaf » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:03 am

I also am fed up with different bottom bracket standards.

The next frame I'm going for uses BB30 - so the solution to using Shimano cranks is a Kogel 30mm-24mm bottom bracket, that avoids any extra step down adapters. It does mean a ceramic bottom bracket, on the plus side. Hopefully I've navigated the minefield correctly.

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Paddles
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Paddles » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:44 am

The bike is in at the shop and by pushing it backwards the guy could clearly hear that that the bearings are making radical noises with the cranks completely unloaded so they're going to pull it down and inspect. Apparently the Tripeak importer is local so if he's got the one I need in stock it should get sorted quickly or else I'll be returning to my teenage years and riding the Centurion Ironman for a few rides instead :D

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby rkelsen » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:37 am

Duck! wrote:Propensity for creaking is very much related to the frame manufacturers' attention to tolerances (but press-fit in all its variations can take a long walk off a short pier).
It's good to hear that from someone in the know.

It is disappointing to see that so many manufacturers have adopted the press-fit bottom bracket system. Most decent bikes you look at will have this anti-feature.

Do you think we're past the point of no return? Will screw-in bottom brackets be brought back?

I guess the manufacturer's logic is that by the time the bearings wear out you're due for a new frame anyway. :roll:

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby MichaelB » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:09 pm

rkelsen wrote: ....
Do you think we're past the point of no return? Will screw-in bottom brackets be brought back?

....
Unless they can make it cheaper, then its a big NO. The whole idea of the press fit BB's was reduced cost for the manufacturer. That's it. All other posturing/reasoning is marketing guff.

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby rkelsen » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:53 pm

MichaelB wrote:Unless they can make it cheaper, then its a big NO. The whole idea of the press fit BB's was reduced cost for the manufacturer. That's it. All other posturing/reasoning is marketing guff.
Well, they probably can't make it cheaper but what about the cost of re-work? The manufacturers would have to be spending a lot of time & money fixing the issues with these things.

And there seems to be a lot of discontent around. A Google search for "press fit bb problem" yields 41,300,000 results... :lol:

EDIT: This guy reckons he spoke with some engineers who told him the opposite: That a press-fit BB costs significantly more because of the level of precision required, both in terms of manufacturing the frame and then installing the bearing cartridges:

I might be living under a rock, but I don't know who he is or if his opinion should matter. What he said certainly makes sense to me.

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby MichaelB » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:30 pm

The thing is, in High volume manufacturing, it can cost lots to set it up properly once, but then it’s done.

To have a threaded BB, it takes multiple processes and extra steps to make the machined thread.

Most manufacturers also won’t temedy the creaking BB’s as it’s hard to prove it’s their issue.

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Calvin27 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:50 pm

rkelsen wrote:
I might be living under a rock, but I don't know who he is or if his opinion should matter. What he said certainly makes sense to me.
There is no way press fit costs less than threaded regardless of what cannondale says lol. Higher tolerance is certainly a consideration but if you are having tolerance issues with a hollow circle cutout - then I'm not holding much hope for a helical thread!

I have 2 bikes with BB30 and yeah they are !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !!. I rekon the cannondale engineer that 'invented' it had shares in loctite.
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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby g-boaf » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:38 pm

rkelsen wrote:
Duck! wrote:Propensity for creaking is very much related to the frame manufacturers' attention to tolerances (but press-fit in all its variations can take a long walk off a short pier).
It's good to hear that from someone in the know.

It is disappointing to see that so many manufacturers have adopted the press-fit bottom bracket system. Most decent bikes you look at will have this anti-feature.

Do you think we're past the point of no return? Will screw-in bottom brackets be brought back?

I guess the manufacturer's logic is that by the time the bearings wear out you're due for a new frame anyway. :roll:
All of my road bikes have press fit bottom brackets (either Shimano SM-BB92-41B or SRAM for BBRight) and none of them are creaking. They've all got decent kms on them. Do any of your bikes have this creaking problem? I'm not doubting that it can happen - but just strange that with four different road bikes, none of them are causing me this trouble.

In any case, I have the tools to change the bottom brackets if they need replacement.

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby Duck! » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:58 pm

Calvin27 wrote: There is no way press fit costs less than threaded regardless of what cannondale says lol. Higher tolerance is certainly a consideration but if you are having tolerance issues with a hollow circle cutout - then I'm not holding much hope for a helical thread!
With aluminium frames it's not that much different, as the only additional step is cutting the thread, or the groves for the circlips that support the bearings in a BB30 shell.

But when it comes to carbon frame manufacturing, the extra processes quickly add up.. A BB86, 386, PF30 or even proprietary systems such as Trek's BB90 need little more than a properly-toleranced plug to form the bottom bracket tube around. Very simple. However threaded and BB30 shells need to have an aluminium liner sleeve manufactured first, which then has the frame formed around and bonded to it. These liners need to be cut to the approriate length, faced, bored to spec, threads tapped and then externally ground to remove any oxide to ensure proper bonding to the carbon frame, and then glued in.

Some early press-fit frames had thin-walled aluminium liners bonded in, but this process in now pretty rare.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby rkelsen » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:08 pm

g-boaf wrote:Do any of your bikes have this creaking problem?
No, but I don't own a press fit BB. :P

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Re: I HATE BB standards !!! Grrrrrr

Postby g-boaf » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:19 pm

rkelsen wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Do any of your bikes have this creaking problem?
No, but I don't own a press fit BB. :P
The bike I’m riding the most at the moment would have 10,000km on it with the current bottom bracket- no creaks. It runs smoothly and quiet.

Like I said, I’m sure it does happen, just surprised that with four bikes I have, all of them don’t have this problem.

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