Spoke related wheel building questions....

[thecaptn]

Hi All,

I'm building my first wheelset and am seeking some opinions/advice.

I have my hubs, rims and spoke lengths sorted.

>I was planning to use DT aerolite spokes but they're quite expensive, I can get Sapim CX Ray's for about 1/3 the price and have heard that they're OK. Any opinions on this?

>The Sapim spokes are 2.0mm at the hub but the spoke holes in the hub are 2.5mm, is this an issue?

>I am planning to use Brass Nipples, will any brand, gauge or length work with whichever spoke I go with? Is one option better than any other?

>What's the theory behind spoke washers? I wasn't planning to use them just curious.

>Is it worth investing in a nipple driver or can I achieve the same thing with an old screw driver and a file?

>A mate of mine recommended putting grease between the nipple and rim where they meet and loctiting the threads once the wheel has settled in and is true. I'd been planning to use Sheldon's advice which is to grease the threads on the rear drive side and leave the rest alone. Any opinions on this?

All opinions and advice are very much appreciated,
Peter

[open roader]

I can weigh in on the Sapim CX-Ray's.

I had a pair of Corima Aero+ 47 wheels laced with CX-Ray spokes, mine had to be fairly tight to work with the Corima rims, particularly the front if I recall - I found them excellent over rough rural roads at a time when I was training long distances and pushing hard and did not care if I smashed into potholes etc. I put a good 4,000km into those wheels and not once broke a spoke or heard a ping. I'd gladly build a road wheel with CX-Rays.

Can't comment on the other queries but I can recommend plain old DT Swiss brass nipples, I inherited a big bag of mixed length 2mm ones and have used them to build 3 wheel sets without issue.

[Duck!]

Sapim use a different stainless steel alloy to DT, and I have found the Sapims to be considerably more stretchy than equivalent DTs. This has both good and bad aspects. The stretchiness does help with smoothing out rougher roads because the wheels have more "give", but this comes with several trade-offs. Firstly they take more work to build up to correct tension. The stretchiness results in a greater variation between static and dynamic tensions, which can lead to spoke fatigue and breakage, and finally will allow more wheel flex, particularly noticeable with very stiff rims when you're monstering the bike up a hill.

DT Aerolites are expensive, but worth the premium in my view. I built up a pair of carbon MTB wheels with Aerolites a couple of years ago; I ran the tension gauge around them about 6 months after building just to check, and that's all that's been done since they were built.

Spoke holes: The .5mm "oversize" is entirely normal and indeed necessary to allow the elbow in the spoke to be threaded "around the corner" through the hole. Also, the blade profile of the spokes will be around 2.2-2.3mm, so the holes need to allow for that too.

Nipples: Any brand will be fine, but the gauge must match the spokes; 2mm/14G is standard, but you can also come across 1.8mm and 2.3mm. Length generally doesn't matter, but it's rare to need more than 12mm; usually only deeper and/or sharply V-sectioned rims with a thick spoke bed need longer nipples. Going too long can also result in the threads bottoming out before the spokes are properly tightened.

Spoke washers at the hub or the nipples? At the hub they can help if there's a greater difference between hole diameter and spoke diameter than the necessary half-mil, e.g if using 1.8mm-ended spokes with 2.5mm holes, or if the hub is drilled bigger. With your build they're not necessary. Nipple washers help in sharp V-sectioned rims, which can be prone to splitting at the holes, but they're a pain in the bum to work with, because there's a high chance of them slipping off the nipple before it gets to the spoke, and ending up floating around in the rim. I will only use them if the rim manufacturer specifies that they must be used (and supplies them with the rim).

I'd just get a nipple driver (brilliant tool!). You can achieve the same thing with an old screwdriver and a file, but it's a stack of farting around to get it right. Plus a nipple driver is usually adjustable, so you can tune it to individual builds depending on the difference between exact calculated spoke length and what spoke lengths you can actually get for the job.

Grease the threads, and the underside of the nipple heads. Keep locking compounds well away from wheels!

Final tip to answer a question you haven't asked, if using bladed spokes, make yourself a spoke-holding tool to stop the spokes twisting. Doesn't have to be anything flash, just a disc of plastic or something that fits comfortably in your hand, with a slot cut in the edge to fit snugly over a spoke. If you really want to get fancy, drill/cut/file a hole in the centre of it big enough to slip the tool over a finger.

[queequeg]

Hi All,

I'm building my first wheelset and am seeking some opinions/advice.

I have my hubs, rims and spoke lengths sorted.

>I was planning to use DT aerolite spokes but they're quite expensive, I can get Sapim CX Ray's for about 1/3 the price and have heard that they're OK. Any opinions on this?

>The Sapim spokes are 2.0mm at the hub but the spoke holes in the hub are 2.5mm, is this an issue?

>I am planning to use Brass Nipples, will any brand, gauge or length work with whichever spoke I go with? Is one option better than any other?

>What's the theory behind spoke washers? I wasn't planning to use them just curious.

>Is it worth investing in a nipple driver or can I achieve the same thing with an old screw driver and a file?

>A mate of mine recommended putting grease between the nipple and rim where they meet and loctiting the threads once the wheel has settled in and is true. I'd been planning to use Sheldon's advice which is to grease the threads on the rear drive side and leave the rest alone. Any opinions on this?

All opinions and advice are very much appreciated,
Peter

Having recently(ish) built up a set of wheels with DT Aerolites, first of all, I don't know where you bought the from, but where I got mine, the Sapim Spokes are $3.63 each, and the Dt Swiss Aerolite's are $3.78. In other words, for a full wheelset (I did 24/32) it was a total difference of $7.84. I have seen some pretty outrageous prices for DT Aerolites though. I went with the aerolites just because I was using DT Swiss Hubs and I am picky over finer details.
If you are not building a weight weenie wheel, you could also consider the DT Swiss Aerocomp Spokes instead. I have just done that for a commuter bike wheelset rebuild because I don't care about the weight, so the slightly more chunky versions come in $2.09 per spoke.

Use Brass Nipples, unless you really really really must save the teensy amount of weight by going alloy. Brass is far more forgiving to work with, especially if you pop a spoke on the road and only have a dodgy spoke wrench with you.
DT Swiss offers all sorts of funky nipples these days. For my last build I went with the DT Swiss "Squorx" head nipples. Why? Because they are so easy to work with when building the wheel. No need for a nipple driver and mucking about with trying to get the thing into a tiny little slot. Yes, you need to get the DT Swiss Squorx tool, but it was well worth it. I have ordered Squorx nipples for the build I am about to do (as soon as my spokes arrives)

Don't bother with spoke washers. I am yet to find a hub that needs them.

On previous builds I have followed Roger Musson's advice and dipped the spoke threads in some lubricant. On rims with eyelets I also used to just give a quick wipe with a cotton bud to coat the inside.
My last build, I didn't bother. The DT Swiss Pro Lock nipples have an adhesive already on the threads which starts working as soon you screw the spoke into the nipple, so you have 24 hour to build to your wheel, then it gets progressively harder. You can still true the wheel over time, but the adhesive becomes less reliable over time (or so I am told). Really, the spokes shouldn't unwind anyway.

Enjoy your wheelbuilding! The set I am about to do is my 6th or 7th set I think. It gets much easier after the first few.

[Duck!]

DT Swiss offers all sorts of funky nipples these days. For my last build I went with the DT Swiss "Squorx" head nipples. Why? Because they are so easy to work with when building the wheel. No need for a nipple driver and mucking about with trying to get the thing into a tiny little slot. Yes, you need to get the DT Swiss Squorx tool, but it was well worth it. I have ordered Squorx nipples for the build I am about to do (as soon as my spokes arrives)

The major point of a nipple driver is that it ensures all nipples are screwed on to the same depth from the start, which makes each subsequent round of tensioning as accurate as it can be. Unless the Squorx tools have a central pin to disengage the tool from the nipple at the set depth, they cannot set you up for that first-stage accuracy that a nipple driver will give.

[P!N20]

Keep locking compounds well away from wheels!

I'm so glad you said this.

I think spoke washers at the hubs are more for hubs that have had a previous life and the hole isn't perfectly round. I used them when I laced up some vintage Maillard hubs and haven't had an issue. Wish they came in silver, though.

[thecaptn]

Thanks for the replies,

I'm pretty sure the Aerolites are the better choice for my build, do you mind if I ask where you bought yours from queequeg?

I was quoted $10 each for them and found cxrays for $3.34. At $10 each I'd spending significantly more on spokes than the nice hubs I was threading them through.

Hi Duck!, you're saying grease the threads and nipple seats on all spokes not just the rear driveside? I 'spose if the wheel is evenly built and there's no twists in the spokes there's no reason for them to undo?

For reference I'm building DuraAce hubs to Lightbicycle 65mm x 25mm carbon rims, front 24 spoke 2 cross, rear 28 spoke 3 cross. I'm hoping to achieve something that's a bit fast, stiff and reliable. Any comments on this plan?

Thanks again for the advice, it's very much appreciated,
Peter

[queequeg]

DT Swiss offers all sorts of funky nipples these days. For my last build I went with the DT Swiss "Squorx" head nipples. Why? Because they are so easy to work with when building the wheel. No need for a nipple driver and mucking about with trying to get the thing into a tiny little slot. Yes, you need to get the DT Swiss Squorx tool, but it was well worth it. I have ordered Squorx nipples for the build I am about to do (as soon as my spokes arrives)

The major point of a nipple driver is that it ensures all nipples are screwed on to the same depth from the start, which makes each subsequent round of tensioning as accurate as it can be. Unless the Squorx tools have a central pin to disengage the tool from the nipple at the set depth, they cannot set you up for that first-stage accuracy that a nipple driver will give.

Yes, that is correct, the nipple driver will stop you screwing the nipples down any further than the tip of the nipple driver, so the nipples are all at exactly the same starting point for tensioning.
The Dt Swiss Squorx/Hex/Square heads don't have any of that. It doesn't stop you using other methods. What I do is screw all the nipples onto the spokes just until all the thread vanishes inside the nipple body. That is far quicker to get to the starting point of the tensioning process.

[queequeg]

Thanks for the replies,

I'm pretty sure the Aerolites are the better choice for my build, do you mind if I ask where you bought yours from queequeg?

I was quoted $10 each for them and found cxrays for $3.34. At $10 each I'd spending significantly more on spokes than the nice hubs I was threading them through.

Hi Duck!, you're saying grease the threads and nipple seats on all spokes not just the rear driveside? I 'spose if the wheel is evenly built and there's no twists in the spokes there's no reason for them to undo?

For reference I'm building DuraAce hubs to Lightbicycle 65mm x 25mm carbon rims, front 24 spoke 2 cross, rear 28 spoke 3 cross. I'm hoping to achieve something that's a bit fast, stiff and reliable. Any comments on this plan?

Thanks again for the advice, it's very much appreciated,
Peter

Get your spokes from Bike24. $10 per spoke is just insanity. Like I said, current price for them is $3.78 each (does not include the nipples). Buy some extra ones as spares for later use as well, so you avoid any issues waiting for spokes if you break one in a years time.

The last wheelset I did was HED Belgium+ laced to DT 240S hubs. 24/2 Cross at the front and 32/2 Cross at the back, DT Aerolite spokes and DT Pro Lock Squorx Head Brass Nipples. 32 spokes on the rear was to tick the "reliable" box...after I popped a spoke before back of falls in the Alpine Classic and my wheels jammed in the chainstays with a 24 spoke wheel. Then I got the dreaded alloy nipple/dodgy spoke wrench curse and couldn't true the wheel enough to unjam it (and naturally it was a driveside spoke!)

866g for the rear wheel, 710g for the front wheel - total weight: 1576g for an all alloy wheelset.

[thecaptn]

Thanks queequeg,

I'm not able to get the right lengths from them in black or silver but can get the right lengths in white and red.

I need 248,250 + 252.

Black they have nothing shorter than 256.
Silver they have 250 + 254.

Otherwise they have the lengths in Aero Comp and Aero Speed.

Aero speed are a bit heavier but I 'spose that would equate to a stronger spoke? Aero Comp is a little heavier than that again and is double butted so that would be even stronger again?

I'm happy to trade off a little weight for strength in my situation.

What do think?
Peter

[queequeg]

Thanks queequeg,

I'm not able to get the right lengths from them in black or silver but can get the right lengths in white and red.

I need 248,250 + 252.

Black they have nothing shorter than 256.
Silver they have 250 + 254.

Otherwise they have the lengths in Aero Comp and Aero Speed.

Aero speed are a bit heavier but I 'spose that would equate to a stronger spoke? Aero Comp is a little heavier than that again and is double butted so that would be even stronger again?

I'm happy to trade off a little weight for strength in my situation.

What do think?
Peter

I am doing Aerocomp for my current build. Spokes are a bit thicker, but have the same width (2.3mm). I’m not fussed about being a weight weenie as my commuter bike is 36 spokes front and rear with 3 cross lacing, and my tyres are 750g each anyway!

I can’t remember if the Aerospeed spokes will fit a standard hub, so you’ll need to check that (unless you are doing straight pull of course).

[thecaptn]

The aero speeds do fit standard hubs. As far as I can tell from reading the DT site, and I could have this wrong, comps are a little bit heavier but stronger, speed are apparently more aero but I can't see why.
I'm leaning towards the comps, stronger with little weight penalty.

[Duck!]

DT Swiss offers all sorts of funky nipples these days. For my last build I went with the DT Swiss "Squorx" head nipples. Why? Because they are so easy to work with when building the wheel. No need for a nipple driver and mucking about with trying to get the thing into a tiny little slot. Yes, you need to get the DT Swiss Squorx tool, but it was well worth it. I have ordered Squorx nipples for the build I am about to do (as soon as my spokes arrives)

The major point of a nipple driver is that it ensures all nipples are screwed on to the same depth from the start, which makes each subsequent round of tensioning as accurate as it can be. Unless the Squorx tools have a central pin to disengage the tool from the nipple at the set depth, they cannot set you up for that first-stage accuracy that a nipple driver will give.

Yes, that is correct, the nipple driver will stop you screwing the nipples down any further than the tip of the nipple driver, so the nipples are all at exactly the same starting point for tensioning.
The Dt Swiss Squorx/Hex/Square heads don't have any of that. It doesn't stop you using other methods. What I do is screw all the nipples onto the spokes just until all the thread vanishes inside the nipple body. That is far quicker to get to the starting point of the tensioning process.

Using the nipple driver with a cordless drill gets 'em on pretty quickly. While it might be slightly slower at the initial stage, the more precise threading will reap benefits later in the build as you're working from a more consistent base.

[Duck!]

Hi Duck!, you're saying grease the threads and nipple seats on all spokes not just the rear driveside? I 'spose if the wheel is evenly built and there's no twists in the spokes there's no reason for them to undo? r

Yes, grease them all. The front wheel will be built to a similar tension as the rear drive side, and unlike the rear will be equal on both sides (disc brake wheels will be slightly lower on the non-disc side). You need to lubricate both contact surfaces to reduce undue stress. The off-side rear will be lower tension than the drive side (the exact difference will vary depending on a few factors, but will typically be between 50 & 65% of the drive side tension), but still benefits fom being lubricated.

[thecaptn]

Went with the comps.

Thanks for all the advice guys,

Peter

[thecaptn]

I'd just get a nipple driver (brilliant tool!). You can achieve the same thing with an old screwdriver and a file, but it's a stack of farting around to get it right. Plus a nipple driver is usually adjustable, so you can tune it to individual builds depending on the difference between exact calculated spoke length and what spoke lengths you can actually get for the job.

After a bit of searching it seems that standard nipple drivers only reach to 50mm and my rims are 65mm, looks like I'll be filing a screwdriver. I did buy a hokey looking spring loaded driver to go into a drill, it was cheap, maybe it will work...

[queequeg]

Using the nipple driver with a cordless drill gets 'em on pretty quickly. While it might be slightly slower at the initial stage, the more precise threading will reap benefits later in the build as you're working from a more consistent base.

Sure, that’s one way to do it The real advantage of the squorx/hex/square head is what comes after the spokes are all at the starting point. No mucking about with a spoke wrench.

I haven’t built a massive number of wheels, but one thing I have found is that the starting point also depends on your chosen spoke lengths.
The last wheelset I did with the new type of nipple was an experiment to see how it went, and I built the wheel up much faster than previously. The tensioning phase is where I saved bucket loads of time. The T-Shaped Wrench made precise 1/4, 1/2 turns etc very easy, especially when using one hand to hold the bladed spoke tool.

I’ll see how I go with the next build. I have just pulled off the Mavic Open Pro rims on my commuter and moving to wider profile rim. Pretty limited in choice for a light 36 hole rim with a wide profile, so I ended up with the H Plus Son Archetypes. The main complaint I heard about them was poor life of the braking surface, which won’t affect me as it’s a Disc Brake Hub. The anodised black looks good.

[queequeg]

Went with the comps.

Thanks for all the advice guys,

Peter

Enjoy your wheel build. It’s certainly good when you have built that first wheel. Definitely a skill you won’t regret having, even if most the time you are just truing wheels.

[biker jk]

Which width tyres are you planning to use? If 25mm, then they will be 27mm or more wide on that rim which measures 25.85mm, so that the aero properties will be diminished.

Also, you won't achieve much spoke tension on the non-drive side. Off the top of my head I think that Dura Ace hub will give you 50% non-drive side tension, so if you went to 130kgf on the drive side the non-drive side spokes will be at 65kgf. I don't know what you weigh so it may or may not be an issue. Shimano factory wheelsets use an offset rear rim which achieves higher non-drive spoke tension. You can also do triplet (2:1) lacing if the rims and hubs are drilled for this option, which gives much more balanced spoke tension between the drive side and non-drive side.

[BJL]

I’ll see how I go with the next build. I have just pulled off the Mavic Open Pro rims on my commuter and moving to wider profile rim. Pretty limited in choice for a light 36 hole rim with a wide profile, so I ended up with the H Plus Son Archetypes. The main complaint I heard about them was poor life of the braking surface, which won’t affect me as it’s a Disc Brake Hub. The anodised black looks good.

I'm in almost the same boat as you. My rear Mavic Open Pro (32 hole) has developed cracks around the spoke holes and needs replacement and like you, I'm now considering the H+Sons Archetypes and found some complaints on forums regarding brake track life. It concerns me as I'm using rim brakes.

What I can't determine is if the brake track wear really is excessive or if the complaints are mainly from those who have used the black Archetype rims and they're just complaining that the black wears off the brake track quickly? I'm intending on getting polished rims.

I don't know what to think anymore because I've seen people complain of brake track wear on the Open Pro's as well (one person says they got 8,000 kms out of an Open Pro rim before the brake track was worn). I got 16,000kms out of my rear Open Pro and I'm a Clydesdale who rides in the hills a lot. The front is still okay. I might just replace the rear with another Open Pro until the front wears.

On the subject of spokes, make sure you use the correct length spokes. It's a long story but I recently learned this the hard (and expensive) way. (My first foray into wheel building though and it's mostly my LBS's fault as they advised me the spokes were correct so I'll write it off as a learning experience).

But basically, If the spoke lengths aren't correct, the wheel is doomed from the start.

On spoke lengths, a question for Duck - When using the spoke length calculators and given that from what I can find on the online stores, spokes commonly come in 2mm increments, do you round up or down? Just for example, If you need an odd length like 291mm, do you round up to 292 or round down to 290?

[P!N20]

Generally, I round upward to the nearest available larger size. The length is not super-critical, but it is worse to have spokes a bit too long than a bit too short.

[find_bruce]

I'm now considering the H+Sons Archetypes and found some complaints on forums regarding brake track life. It concerns me as I'm using rim brakes. ?

If brake track life concerns you, think about the hard anodised rims which should give better wear. Best price I have seen on them is AU$94 from Wiggle - let me know if you find a better price.

[Duck!]

On spoke lengths, a question for Duck - When using the spoke length calculators and given that from what I can find on the online stores, spokes commonly come in 2mm increments, do you round up or down? Just for example, If you need an odd length like 291mm, do you round up to 292 or round down to 290?

I'm not sure about others, but the DT Swiss calculator gives both exact and rounded spoke lengths. If the rounded length is an odd number, eg 291mm, I'll look at the exact length and round to the nearest even length. So if it's 290.something I'll round to 290mm, and if it's 291.something I'll go up to 292mm.

[10speedsemiracer]

On spoke lengths, a question for Duck - When using the spoke length calculators and given that from what I can find on the online stores, spokes commonly come in 2mm increments, do you round up or down? Just for example, If you need an odd length like 291mm, do you round up to 292 or round down to 290?

I'm not sure about others, but the DT Swiss calculator gives both exact and rpunded spoke lengths. If the rounded length is an odd number, eg 291mm, I'll look at the exact length and round to the nearest even length. So if it's 290.something I'll round to 290mm, and if it's 291.something I'll go up to 292mm.

+
Have been following this thread for my own learning, and have a question. Almost all of the recommendations involve DT Swiss parts and gear. I was just wondering how Wheelsmith spokes/nipples are regarded in terms of quality and ease of use in the building process. Not a wheel-building expert at all, haven't done any in years, looking at rebuilding some 1980s 630mm rims with SunTour hubs.

Just interested in feedback before I order boxes of bits.

[queequeg]

I’ll see how I go with the next build. I have just pulled off the Mavic Open Pro rims on my commuter and moving to wider profile rim. Pretty limited in choice for a light 36 hole rim with a wide profile, so I ended up with the H Plus Son Archetypes. The main complaint I heard about them was poor life of the braking surface, which won’t affect me as it’s a Disc Brake Hub. The anodised black looks good.

I'm in almost the same boat as you. My rear Mavic Open Pro (32 hole) has developed cracks around the spoke holes and needs replacement and like you, I'm now considering the H+Sons Archetypes and found some complaints on forums regarding brake track life. It concerns me as I'm using rim brakes.

What I can't determine is if the brake track wear really is excessive or if the complaints are mainly from those who have used the black Archetype rims and they're just complaining that the black wears off the brake track quickly? I'm intending on getting polished rims.

I don't know what to think anymore because I've seen people complain of brake track wear on the Open Pro's as well (one person says they got 8,000 kms out of an Open Pro rim before the brake track was worn). I got 16,000kms out of my rear Open Pro and I'm a Clydesdale who rides in the hills a lot. The front is still okay. I might just replace the rear with another Open Pro until the front wears.

On the subject of spokes, make sure you use the correct length spokes. It's a long story but I recently learned this the hard (and expensive) way. (My first foray into wheel building though and it's mostly my LBS's fault as they advised me the spokes were correct so I'll write it off as a learning experience).

But basically, If the spoke lengths aren't correct, the wheel is doomed from the start.

On spoke lengths, a question for Duck - When using the spoke length calculators and given that from what I can find on the online stores, spokes commonly come in 2mm increments, do you round up or down? Just for example, If you need an odd length like 291mm, do you round up to 292 or round down to 290?

I have some Mavic A179 rims that used to be on my Hybrid before getting swapped to my Disc commuter. The brake track is very concave after wet weather commuting. Perfectly fine for a Disc wheelset, but the braking surface has little life left in it.
I also have some 32h Open Pros on my steel road bike, and they have done about 8,000km now. They are not as worn as the A179s, but they are getting there.

If you need an Open Pro 32h rim (black) and you are in Sydney, I have on old one here. It is still built as a front wheel, but as it is a disc hub, the braking surface has never been used. My old rear Mavic Open Pro has 10 of the spoke eyelets get ripped out of the rim. I had never seen anything like it. Almost every drive side spoke hole was cracked. It was either a dodgy rim, or the shop that built it for me put too much tension on it.

For spoke length, I use https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/. Whether to round up or down depends on how picky you are. Roger Musson does his spoke lengths so that in a finished wheel, the spoke ends up between the bottom of the slot and the top of the head, and he achieves this by measuring his own ERD on every rim. I'm not that picky, but when rounding, I go to the nearest 1mm like he suggests. So, sometimes I go up, sometimes I go down. If you need a 291mm spoke, it's your call. I prefer to go to a longer spoke, as a shorter one will mean it gets tighter much sooner than otherwise.